Oh one more thing: The whole Get plans to Death star 3, find weakness in it, and deploy attack all in a 7 second time frame....that drove me nuts.
[SPOILERS] Star Wars - The Force Awakens / Rogue One
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My first comment on this thread was that the character and relationship development was rushed too.
Now that I've thought about a little more, the characters were pretty rich and well developed by the end.
And the relationship development was rushed in the OT. Luke was so broken up on the Falcon after Obi-Wan died, but I was thinking "Dude, you met him like yesterday." He was less upset when Owen and Beru died. But the little shortcuts were okay there, and now I don't mind it so much in Ep. VII.
As far as relationships, it doesn't take a whole lot of analysis to realize why Finn digs Rey right away, but I wasn't really sold on why she becomes so attached to him right away. Oh well. I think I need to see it again.
Now that I've thought about a little more, the characters were pretty rich and well developed by the end.
And the relationship development was rushed in the OT. Luke was so broken up on the Falcon after Obi-Wan died, but I was thinking "Dude, you met him like yesterday." He was less upset when Owen and Beru died. But the little shortcuts were okay there, and now I don't mind it so much in Ep. VII.
As far as relationships, it doesn't take a whole lot of analysis to realize why Finn digs Rey right away, but I wasn't really sold on why she becomes so attached to him right away. Oh well. I think I need to see it again.
lowtones84
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I agree with it being a bit rushed, but the first few scenes really did draw me into the world. The first scene with Kylo and the troopers landing to destroy that village, and the beginning of Finn's turn was great, as was Rey's introduction scene. The first 20-30 minutes of the movie I thought were fantastic, then it sort of devolved into what people are complaining about.
As far as Kylo, he is still developing himself. He's not supposed to be vader level yet. And I think anybody would be at a disadvantage in a fight if they got a surprise bowcaster round to the stomach minutes before!
hoppyhoppyhippo
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I'm gonna disagree with you here.
First Vader was a full fledged of 30 years Sith Apprentice. He was arguably the most powerful force user in the universe.
Kylo Ren hadn't even "completed his training"
So the counter I'll give you, Luke was able to battle off for many minutes Vader in Empire Strikes Back. Luke was not a Jedi Knight at that point. How could a jedi in training stand up to one of the most powerful force users in the world?
Conversely you have someone training as a jedi/sith master battling a scavenger who's backstory we don't really know. Most people believe Rey had jedi training as a child and she's obviously gifted in battle with her quarter staff.
Then to add as well. In Clone Wars and the prequels we saw non-force users successfully fight full fledged Jedi Knights. General Grievous regularly out fought Anakin and Obi Wan. Others like Cad Bane were able to defend themselves with a lightsaber against Jedis like again Obi Wan.
Where they mostly fail is ability to battle force attacks. That's not something that Rey would have had an issue.
Who said Vader was trying to kill Luke? He wanted to keep him alive and turn him to the dark side.
Sure, Vader didn't dominate Luke. But remembering the battle scene, at what point did you think Luke had the upper hand in that fight? Never. That's what happens when a master is toying with his opponent.
Yes. This was my only real complaint with the movie. In Eps. IV and VI, we got the impression that their best analysts had sat down with the plans and painstakingly analyzed them, looking for a weakness.
In Ep. VII, it was - Hey, let's hit it right there. Boom. Start the engines.
hoppyhoppyhippo
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Correct he wanted Luke Alive. But Ren wanted Rey alive as well.
To add as well Ren was wounded, and just went through an emotional wreck of killing his father so his body was hurt and his mind was severely distracted.
hoppyhoppyhippo
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And my gripe about the complaint about Ren vs Finn.
Again an injured Ren vs an emotional Finn. Finn was dominated the entire time. Aside from one successful slash if that.
Again an injured Ren vs an emotional Finn. Finn was dominated the entire time. Aside from one successful slash if that.
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True, but I would point out that they weren't looking for a weakness that would destroy the whole battle station. They were looking for a quick hit to disable it.
It just so happened that because the weapon had just ingested the energy of a whole star, it became unstable and took out the whole planet creating a new star. They got lucky; it wasn't all to plan.
kombat
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She didn't. She openly disliked him, right up until the moment she (erroneously) discovered he was with the resistance. Then her assessment of him clearly took an obvious 180, as she perceived him as her ticket off the planet. Remember her longingly watching star cruisers taking off while she ate her lunch next to the decrepit AT-AT?
Actually, she disliked him when she thought he had stolen a jacket from BB8's master. She's probably got a bad opinion of thieves from growing up surrounded by them.
And how is he her ticket off the planet? She's a pilot! And apparently one only has to jump into a spaceship and take off to leave the planet.
She didn't actually want to leave. She was waiting for her parents to come back to her. She DID find his asssociation with the resistance to be attractive, though. She was drawn to fighting the evil empire like her father before her.
kombat
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So she despised thieves, but you don't see why she didn't just steal a ship if she wanted to leave? You don't see any contradiction there?
She didn't actually want to leave. She was waiting for her parents to come back to her. She DID find his asssociation with the resistance to be attractive, though. She was drawn to fighting the evil empire like her father before her.
Good point, they implied she longed for the stars with the scene of her watching the star ship depart, but as soon as she got away, all she wanted to do was get back to Jakuu. Maybe she wanted a taste of space, but wanted to stay rooted on Jakuu to await her family's return?
So she despised thieves, but you don't see why she didn't just steal a ship if she wanted to leave? You don't see any contradiction there?
I think the laser blasts from the TIE fighters clouded her judgment at that moment.
kombat
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Of course - under the circumstances, she was willing to compromise her morals and steal a ship. I was simply pointing out why she didn't steal one sooner, since you implied that's all she needed to do if she really wanted to go into space so badly.
Yes, she was conflicted between staying to meet her parents again and leaving the awful conditions she was living in.
I must have misread your previous comment. I thought you were saying that Finn's arrival meant she could finally leave. In a roundabout way I guess that's true. But not because he was taking her away.
I might have to go see this again. Or DL it. I hear it's out in the Ether somewhere if you can stand recorded movie screens. I think if we go tot he movies my wife will want to see Hateful Eight.
kombat
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I was, but now in talking it through with you, I don't think that was it. My original point was, she probably assumed that being with the resistance, he had a ship of some sort, and a means to leave the planet and travel. But you're right - she didn't actually want to leave Jakuu - she was waiting for her parents to return.
Now, I'm thinking her attitude changed merely because she was enthralled by the notion of the resistance itself, and here was a real-live resistance fighter right in front of her who could tell her all sorts of fantastic tales of bravery and struggle.
At any rate, that was clearly the moment when her opinion of Finn got completely flipped on its head.
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It was simply a situation of fight or flight. A storyline that spans milleniums, this one just focused in on a Falcon.
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Somewhat. They were actually sitting idle making repairs and planning the next step when Han pulled them in.
I saw it for the second time last night. I was trying to focus on the details of the lightsaber flashback scene. You hear the voices of Yoda, Qui Gon, Obi Wan, and possibly some others. You also hear the voice of the guy that Rey sells her scavenged parts to saying "come with me little girl", or something like that. I would guess that she was at some point sold into slavery or put under the watch of that guy. Who was she waiting for and where did they go?
One or both of her parents is my guess.
In the flashback scene when Rey is left on Jakku you see her handed of to someone with a big puffy hand.
The bi puffy hand then says "come with me..."
My thought is that Rey is given to Unkar Plutt for safe keeping.
Unkar then gives her just enough ration to survive.
agrazela
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Old man, sitting in the Falcon,
Oh Han, look at that X-wing go
It’s being flow-n by Poe-oe-oe-oe
Not a Solo…
Kylo, picking on the wrong gal
Bad plan, probably related you know,
Rip off a classic show-ow-ow-ow
Is this Disney Star Wars?
“Disney Star Wars”
Not by David Bowie
Oh Han, look at that X-wing go
It’s being flow-n by Poe-oe-oe-oe
Not a Solo…
Kylo, picking on the wrong gal
Bad plan, probably related you know,
Rip off a classic show-ow-ow-ow
Is this Disney Star Wars?
“Disney Star Wars”
Not by David Bowie
Just saw it again. I am much more satisfied with how the Finn/Rey friendship developed. First she's enamored of the idea of meeting a resistance fighter. Then, they're working together then with Han Solo to accomplish a mission. Then when Chewie tells Rey that Finn went to Starkiller base to rescue her, that really cements the friendship.
And I noticed little details. When Rey fights off those two bad guys who are trying to take BB-8, then she confronts Finn, her knuckles are bloody. I like the little details like that that JJ includes.
Or Ren is feeling conflict and the pull from the light. As he's face to face with Han, the sun is slowly going out; the light is fading. It isn't until the light is completely gone that he goes full blown dark side and kills Han. Nice little metaphor/language of cinema thing there. And he made this wonderfully subtle little smirk afterwards because he was proud of what he did. Not only did he kill the father he felt had wronged him, but Snoke said confronting Han would be a test unlike any other that he or the other Knights of Ren had ever faced. He was proud that he had passed Snoke's test. Of course, Han said that Snoke was using Ren, so I bet we'll see more of something along those lines ...
Anyway, even better the second time around.
And I noticed little details. When Rey fights off those two bad guys who are trying to take BB-8, then she confronts Finn, her knuckles are bloody. I like the little details like that that JJ includes.
Or Ren is feeling conflict and the pull from the light. As he's face to face with Han, the sun is slowly going out; the light is fading. It isn't until the light is completely gone that he goes full blown dark side and kills Han. Nice little metaphor/language of cinema thing there. And he made this wonderfully subtle little smirk afterwards because he was proud of what he did. Not only did he kill the father he felt had wronged him, but Snoke said confronting Han would be a test unlike any other that he or the other Knights of Ren had ever faced. He was proud that he had passed Snoke's test. Of course, Han said that Snoke was using Ren, so I bet we'll see more of something along those lines ...
Anyway, even better the second time around.
ArkotRamathorn
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27ages of discussion so I hope this hasn't been mentioned.
Has the idea of Rey being a force baby been discussed? Ala Anakin immaculate conception via midichlorians. I just don't want to think JJ went with Luke being her father, I guess the force-baby route feels contrived as well but I don't think Luke or Anakin were ever actually the "chosen ones" who brought balance to the force. If the Jedi truly believe in the concept of "balance" there needs to be the rule of 2 sith and then the Jedi to balance.
When Anakin flipped and killed all of the Jedi, the force swung dramatically towards the Sith. When Luke converted Anakin back to the side of light and Anakin killed Palpatine. The balance of the force swung back dramatically and left a hole in the dark side for Snoke and the Knights of Ren to fill.
I want to think that Rey and Finn will end up representing two sides of the same "neutral" coin and bring true balance to the force.
Has the idea of Rey being a force baby been discussed? Ala Anakin immaculate conception via midichlorians. I just don't want to think JJ went with Luke being her father, I guess the force-baby route feels contrived as well but I don't think Luke or Anakin were ever actually the "chosen ones" who brought balance to the force. If the Jedi truly believe in the concept of "balance" there needs to be the rule of 2 sith and then the Jedi to balance.
When Anakin flipped and killed all of the Jedi, the force swung dramatically towards the Sith. When Luke converted Anakin back to the side of light and Anakin killed Palpatine. The balance of the force swung back dramatically and left a hole in the dark side for Snoke and the Knights of Ren to fill.
I want to think that Rey and Finn will end up representing two sides of the same "neutral" coin and bring true balance to the force.
One could argue that Annakin brought "balance" to the force. When he is very young there are lots of Jedi, but only 2 sith (as is normal).
After Palpatine and Annakin slaughter the Jedi, there are really only 2 jedi left, and they go into hiding.
Of course, this allows the Empire to grow, but technically the Empire isn't part of the force.
That's exactly what he did, and it's amazing to me that supposedly wise jedi didn't understand that prophecy. Let's see, we have an entire council of jedi, apparently dozens in training and we haven't seen any sign of sith in years... Sounds unbalanced. Do we really want balance? That either means a sudden explosion of sith surfacing, or what happened, a lot of jedi being wiped out.
The Jedi council in interesting simply because of it's existence. Consider that a person strong in the force, who chooses to follow the path of the Dark Side, will be relatively easy to deal with if necessary, but most likely it will remain a minor, local problem.
But instead, a group is formed to find and train people with a reasonable proclivity to use the Force. So, as a result a great number of these people are trained in the use of the Force and with training their abilities grow so that they are powerful enough to be a true problem for the Jedi themselves.
The Jedi are already aware that the Dark Side is attractive to the inexperienced and impatient. It's easier to use and appears stronger. It's inevitable that some of the people they train are going to fall to the Dark Side. So it's almost as if they are setting up their own demise simply by existing.
Well, let's also look at it this way:
We have some very obvious connotations of the dark side being evil and the light side being good, but is it that obvious for someone in the star wars universe? Clearly to a lot of people in the galaxy the empire, while maybe somewhat corrupt, isn't all that bad, otherwise they wouldn't have the manpower to build and operate a death star.
In other words, in the movies, we see all of the star wars universe from the perspective of jedi and their allies. From a completely objective standpoint, the sith may not be all that evil and the jedi may not be all that good.
We have some very obvious connotations of the dark side being evil and the light side being good, but is it that obvious for someone in the star wars universe? Clearly to a lot of people in the galaxy the empire, while maybe somewhat corrupt, isn't all that bad, otherwise they wouldn't have the manpower to build and operate a death star.
In other words, in the movies, we see all of the star wars universe from the perspective of jedi and their allies. From a completely objective standpoint, the sith may not be all that evil and the jedi may not be all that good.
I always assumed balance to the force meant dominance by the light side. The presence of sith is what disrupts the balance.
ArkotRamathorn
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I hope they deal with that concept in the coming movies. Some super old master-stroke by the original Jedi or some Sith Lord who infiltrated the original Jedi to create a prophecy of "The One who will bring balance", or leave out the Sith Lord and the original Jedi masters realized that true balance would either be even number of Jedi/Sith or none at all.
One thing we never get to see (yet) are the Sith training stables, we see the Jedi temple and training programs in 1-3 but apparently Palpatine had a group of disciples waiting in the wings as a threat to Vader to keep him in line (it's interesting hen you read about the accepted in between canon of the Palpatine/Vader relationship which is far more adversarial than 4 and 5 make it seem).
One thing I was slightly sad about was when I realized Snoke was another Sith Lord. I thought it'd be more interesting to watch the First Orders leader be a political and military leader rather than a religious leader like Palpatine (if you consider the Sith and the Dark Side as a type of religion). Palpatine was a religious zealot that butted heads with Vader and the political leadership of the empire, the 2nd Death Star was a pet project that Palpatine forced through I'm spit of the protests of Vader and senior leadership.
Maybe they think we wouldn't find the story interesting if we had a leader like Thrawn who had no force abilities but was a brilliant strategist.
I think it was just easier and opened more possibilities if they didn't include any of the books as canon. I thought Thrawn was a great adversary in the books, but I'm not sure he's as compelling as a Sith lord, or an antagonist with family connections. At least to the majority of SW fans, anyway.
I didn't know until recently there was an adversarial relationship between Sith and Pupil, but apparently there HAS to be. For starters, being bad is simply a fact of being for any Sith hopeful. Second, you can only become a Sith Lord by killing your mentor. I'm not sure why any Sith Lord would ever want to take a student, actually!
I'm curious to know how there came to be a new Sith Lord when Vader killed Palpatine and he himself died immediately thereafter. Is there a story that covers the time between ROTJ and TFA? It almost seems as though the "always two" sith rule is slightly flexible...
I didn't know until recently there was an adversarial relationship between Sith and Pupil, but apparently there HAS to be. For starters, being bad is simply a fact of being for any Sith hopeful. Second, you can only become a Sith Lord by killing your mentor. I'm not sure why any Sith Lord would ever want to take a student, actually!
I'm curious to know how there came to be a new Sith Lord when Vader killed Palpatine and he himself died immediately thereafter. Is there a story that covers the time between ROTJ and TFA? It almost seems as though the "always two" sith rule is slightly flexible...
hoppyhoppyhippo
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Well the important thing is that this could have nothing to do with the Sith. Just because osmsone is a dark side force user, doesn't mean they're sith. Sith are a specific order of Dark Side users. We have in canon, non-Sith dark side force users, the Inquisitors from Rebels.
ArkotRamathorn
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It makes you wonder though if those non-affiliated factions of force users factor into the "balance" of the force. Or because we've only ever been shown the Jedi vs. Sith conflict does that mean they're the only ones who truly matter? I really hope we meet some new force users in 8-9 simply so we can see a wider range of characters and how they fit themselves into the greater conflict.
Good question. Sith are specifically trained and accepted into the "club" known as the Sith.
It's interesting to note that Snoke isn't mentioned as being a Sith Lord. The Knights of Ren are a separate order of Dark Side users. So it's possible that the Sith ARE extinct, but that other Dark Side users can form relationships like Snoke and Kylo.
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