Official Lambic.Info thread

[Macenson]

Hey guys, need some help identifying the age of a bottle given to me. Oude Lambiek from De Cam. Bottle date on the back is 10.2000 but blacked out so I'm guessing they ran out of labels. You guys seem to have this kind of thing figured out. Any idea?

Hey guys, update on this. Drank it with TDBuck and StevonHanby. Almost no carbonation. No pop on the cork at all so I think it was pretty old. It also was kind of metallic in taste so kind of a letdown.

 

[CornAndBeer]

No carb on an unblended lambic doesn't have anything to do with age. It should be still.

 

[LukeAleTime]

No carb on an unblended lambic doesn't have anything to do with age. It should be still.

Seeing checkins for GCB that are "must be a dud, dead flat, tastes weird" always makes me a little sad.

 

[tosh1]

So who should I be mad at if I only got 3 out of the 5 glasses I ordered? Shall I just start a bad trader/vendor thread and call out SeaWatchman ?

 

[SeaWatchman]

So who should I be mad at if I only got 3 out of the 5 glasses I ordered? Shall I just start a bad trader/vendor thread and call out SeaWatchman ?

Shoot me a text or email Bill. PayPal spit out some bad receipts and some of the orders got messed up.

 

[tosh1]

Shoot me a text or email Bill. PayPal spit out some bad receipts and some of the orders got messed up.

Will do. Cheers.

 

[wyatt1]

I also didn't get my whole order. PMing you now.

 

[Forgetfu]

We know about the ones that are missing their extra glasses. New boxes should go out to the few of you impacted this week.

 

[boogercrack]

Got my glasses over the weekend (oddly long ship time from Colorado...), and they're rad as ****.


Thanks guys!

 

[SeaWatchman]

Got my glasses over the weekend (oddly long ship time from Colorado...), and they're rad as ****.


Thanks guys!

In my town (which is like the third or fourth most populous in Montana, lol), our mail gets trucked two hours south to Missoula, sorted, and then trucked back up. Thanks, Obama.

 

[Tlo4sho]

My glass arrived today (Sat?)! Thank you crew! Although I am not propering it w lambic tonight but other beer as I'm desperate to use it, it sure does fit nicely in my hand w the cherry berry I have. Excellent work, cheers!

 

[blckout201]

Received my glass set last week. Looks great!

 

[sneakychi]

Don't know if this is of interest, but noticed no mention of "Second Edition" over at http://www.lambic.info/Oude_Geuze_Boon_Black_Label

Best before 12 04 2036, (batch # 63001), ABV 6.4%

 

[SeaWatchman]

Will get it added, thanks!

 

[stupac2]

Random comment/observation, and I'm asking partly to clarify my own thinking on this. Reading the cellaring sections of the wiki, I came across this:

Lambic, like wine, is most commonly stored on its side. This orientation expands the surface area of the beer that is in contact with the oxygen in the bottle.

I don't think this is true. Or, rather, while it's true that bottles on their side have increased surface area of liquid exposed to the headspace (and thus gaseous oxygen), I don't think it matters because the opposite is also true. That is, the increased surface are also increases the amount of oxygen dissolved in the liquid that comes into contact with the gas, and thus leaves the liquid for the headspace. I believe that these effects should cancel out, and the only thing that determines how much molecular oxygen ends up being dissolved in the liquid is its partial pressure in the headspace (ie Henry's Law), which won't change with, well, anything other than the oxygen being consumed by yeast or the seal of the bottle failing.

It's entirely possible I'm missing something important here, but no matter how hard I try I can't find any rationale for the surface area exposed to gas mattering (and the wiki doesn't even mention any consequences of the supposed difference, it's pretty much a throwaway line).

 

[Macenson]

I understand from my trading partner in Belgium that Zenne batch 2 will be for on-site consumption only. Any confirmation of this?

 

[SeaWatchman]

Random comment/observation, and I'm asking partly to clarify my own thinking on this. Reading the cellaring sections of the wiki, I came across this:


I don't think this is true. Or, rather, while it's true that bottles on their side have increased surface area of liquid exposed to the headspace (and thus gaseous oxygen), I don't think it matters because the opposite is also true. That is, the increased surface are also increases the amount of oxygen dissolved in the liquid that comes into contact with the gas, and thus leaves the liquid for the headspace. I believe that these effects should cancel out, and the only thing that determines how much molecular oxygen ends up being dissolved in the liquid is its partial pressure in the headspace (ie Henry's Law), which won't change with, well, anything other than the oxygen being consumed by yeast or the seal of the bottle failing.

It's entirely possible I'm missing something important here, but no matter how hard I try I can't find any rationale for the surface area exposed to gas mattering (and the wiki doesn't even mention any consequences of the supposed difference, it's pretty much a throwaway line).

duketheredeemer

 

[duketheredeemer]

Random comment/observation, and I'm asking partly to clarify my own thinking on this. Reading the cellaring sections of the wiki, I came across this:


I don't think this is true. Or, rather, while it's true that bottles on their side have increased surface area of liquid exposed to the headspace (and thus gaseous oxygen), I don't think it matters because the opposite is also true. That is, the increased surface are also increases the amount of oxygen dissolved in the liquid that comes into contact with the gas, and thus leaves the liquid for the headspace. I believe that these effects should cancel out, and the only thing that determines how much molecular oxygen ends up being dissolved in the liquid is its partial pressure in the headspace (ie Henry's Law), which won't change with, well, anything other than the oxygen being consumed by yeast or the seal of the bottle failing.

It's entirely possible I'm missing something important here, but no matter how hard I try I can't find any rationale for the surface area exposed to gas mattering (and the wiki doesn't even mention any consequences of the supposed difference, it's pretty much a throwaway line).

The only major issue with this is that you're missing one component of the differential equation controlling the gas balance: loss within the liquid. As the liquid is a sink, increased surface area should increase the rate at which oxygen can be replenished in the liquid when it is consumed by oxidizing something.

However, I suspect you're effectively right anyway: if the characteristic time scales for diffusion throughout the volume (in either orientation) are short compared to the time scales for oxidation, then we can effectively ignore the sink component of the gas balance and treat it as a simple Henry's Law problem (with the overall concentration of oxygen decreasing on long time scales). I suspect this is largely the case, given that gas diffusion times throughout the bottle should be on the order of a few weeks at most, and the oxidation effects usually aren't very prevalent until a year or two into the aging of a bottle.

If, for some reason, the opposite is true, then we'd end up in a situation where the surface is extremely important, as the top layers of the liquid would be consuming the oxygen and being oxidized rapidly, while the beer far from the surface would be very protected from the effects of oxidation (having consumed all its dO2 long ago). This would mean that the average distance to the surface would become important, and since that value is larger for the upright orientation, it would mean different effects for different orientations. A bottle stored upright would be a mixture of a little bit of very oxidized beer and a lot of fairly fresh beer. On its side, it'd all be fairly oxidized. I don't feel like this is observed, though.

All of this is assuming that bulk transport of the liquid isn't taking place (i.e., no one's shaking the bottle and there's no convection).

I can develop this model in greater detail later if anyone is interested, because it might contain some surprises and we could quantify what "long time scales" actually means.

 

[stupac2]

The only major issue with this is that you're missing one component of the differential equation controlling the gas balance: loss within the liquid. As the liquid is a sink, increased surface area should increase the rate at which oxygen can be replenished in the liquid when it is consumed by oxidizing something.

However, I suspect you're effectively right anyway: if the characteristic time scales for diffusion throughout the volume (in either orientation) are short compared to the time scales for oxidation, then we can effectively ignore the sink component of the gas balance and treat it as a simple Henry's Law problem (with the overall concentration of oxygen decreasing on long time scales). I suspect this is largely the case, given that gas diffusion times throughout the bottle should be on the order of a few weeks at most, and the oxidation effects usually aren't very prevalent until a year or two into the aging of a bottle.

If, for some reason, the opposite is true, then we'd end up in a situation where the surface is extremely important, as the top layers of the liquid would be consuming the oxygen and being oxidized rapidly, while the beer far from the surface would be very protected from the effects of oxidation (having consumed all its dO2 long ago). This would mean that the average distance to the surface would become important, and since that value is larger for the upright orientation, it would mean different effects for different orientations. A bottle stored upright would be a mixture of a little bit of very oxidized beer and a lot of fairly fresh beer. On its side, it'd all be fairly oxidized. I don't feel like this is observed, though.

All of this is assuming that bulk transport of the liquid isn't taking place (i.e., no one's shaking the bottle and there's no convection).

I can develop this model in greater detail later if anyone is interested, because it might contain some surprises and we could quantify what "long time scales" actually means.

Yeah, I didn't consider disequilibrium effects because it seems so unlikely to me (but, again, this is not my area of expertise). I think it's pretty safe to consider the aging processes (both chemical and microbial) to be slow compared to the timescale of gaseous equilibration, just given that, as you say, you don't notice changes in the flavor profile on the timescale of weeks which is plenty of time for the gas to equilibrate. I don't think developing a more detailed model is necessary, personally.

I do wonder what the O2 consumption rate is in a bottle of lambic (and also in beer where there's no microbial O2 sink). Would it even be possible to test that non-destructively? (Meaning without opening the bottle.) New Belgium has a pretty bitchin' QC lab, right? Anyone know the people who work there to see if they've ever looked into this sort of thing?

 

[ASak10]

 

[duketheredeemer]

Yeah, I didn't consider disequilibrium effects because it seems so unlikely to me (but, again, this is not my area of expertise). I think it's pretty safe to consider the aging processes (both chemical and microbial) to be slow compared to the timescale of gaseous equilibration, just given that, as you say, you don't notice changes in the flavor profile on the timescale of weeks which is plenty of time for the gas to equilibrate. I don't think developing a more detailed model is necessary, personally.

I do wonder what the O2 consumption rate is in a bottle of lambic (and also in beer where there's no microbial O2 sink). Would it even be possible to test that non-destructively? (Meaning without opening the bottle.) New Belgium has a pretty bitchin' QC lab, right? Anyone know the people who work there to see if they've ever looked into this sort of thing?

I just spent a couple minutes talking about this with a materials experimentalist who sits down the hall from me at work. We decided the best way to test this would be to find a dye that binds reversibly with oxygen and is quantitative for dO2 at low concentrations of both. Preferably one that is probed/measured in the red, and set up your sensor to look through the bottle. You could also use a camera with a filter as your sensor and get spatial distribution data easily that way (up to using a couple cameras at different angles with tomography to reconstruct the full volume). The limitation is that you wouldn't know the concentration in the headspace, though due to the rapid diffusion of gasses, you could probably make do with a single partial pressure O2 sensor in the bottle.

He also brought up that we're ignoring surface effects at the V/L boundary and the glass, but I can't imagine those are important here.

The easiest way would probably just be to find or add some sort of oxidation marker and age a bunch of bottles in each orientation then test for the marker at a later time, which would be "destructive" to the bottles tested, so you'd need lots of bottles to get good statistics at each time point. It wouldn't tell you what exactly the mechanisms were, but it could tell yo uif there is a difference in the final product. If you wanted to eliminate cork effects, you could use sealed ampules, I guess. In any event, I'm not sure what the literature on this is, but if it exists, it probably exists in the wine lit somewhere.

 

[stupac2]

I just spent a couple minutes talking about this with a materials experimentalist who sits down the hall from me at work. We decided the best way to test this would be to find a dye that binds reversibly with oxygen and is quantitative for dO2 at low concentrations of both. Preferably one that is probed/measured in the red, and set up your sensor to look through the bottle. You could also use a camera with a filter as your sensor and get spatial distribution data easily that way (up to using a couple cameras at different angles with tomography to reconstruct the full volume). The limitation is that you wouldn't know the concentration in the headspace, though due to the rapid diffusion of gasses, you could probably make do with a single partial pressure O2 sensor in the bottle.

He also brought up that we're ignoring surface effects at the V/L boundary and the glass, but I can't imagine those are important here.

The easiest way would probably just be to find or add some sort of oxidation marker and age a bunch of bottles in each orientation then test for the marker at a later time, which would be "destructive" to the bottles tested, so you'd need lots of bottles to get good statistics at each time point. It wouldn't tell you what exactly the mechanisms were, but it could tell yo uif there is a difference in the final product. If you wanted to eliminate cork effects, you could use sealed ampules, I guess. In any event, I'm not sure what the literature on this is, but if it exists, it probably exists in the wine lit somewhere.

You'd need a way to introduce said dye before bottling, right? That would sure be fun. "Hey JVR let me just put this weird **** into this barrel over here!" I suppose this will just remain untested.

Also, the wine lit isn't necessarily applicable for a few reasons (unless a wine cork is a comparable diffusion barrier to a champagne cork or cork/cap system, which could be true). I'd also be moderately surprised if anyone has ever studied it because wine people seem to think science is inapplicable to them for some reason. But maybe someone has? I wouldn't even know how to look.

 

[Calcifer]

Just wanted to shout out to the guys at Lambic.info; I ordered the three-pack of tumblers and when they arrived the purple glass was unfortunately broken. I emailed Bill and he got a new glass out to me a few days later, free of charge. Quality customer service and classy AF. Cheers guys.

 

[user 306926]

Are glasses for sale anymore? Late to the party here.
No idea where on the site they'd be listed for sale.

 

[duketheredeemer]

You'd need a way to introduce said dye before bottling, right? That would sure be fun. "Hey JVR let me just put this weird **** into this barrel over here!" I suppose this will just remain untested.

Also, the wine lit isn't necessarily applicable for a few reasons (unless a wine cork is a comparable diffusion barrier to a champagne cork or cork/cap system, which could be true). I'd also be moderately surprised if anyone has ever studied it because wine people seem to think science is inapplicable to them for some reason. But maybe someone has? I wouldn't even know how to look.

Probably, as you'd not want to open the bottle after refermentation, because that'd change things in the headspace quite a bit. I imagine if someone did want to do this, they'd have to go to a brewery, buy like 10 cases, and get access to when those cases were being bottled. Inject the dye at bottling into just those bottles, then roll out with your cases while the other bottles are unmolested. I'm located in the wrong part of the world and I don't have access to a lab any more, so I'm definitely not going to be able to do it anyway, haha.

Wine is somewhat applicable, and would probably give you an idea of the rates, but yes. The closures are different, the pressures are different (unless we're looking at sparkling wine!), and there may be different oxidation pathways available in both. That said, you could probably still pin down whether or not any significant oxidation takes place on timescales comparable to the diffusion time with it, I think.

There's a lot of wine literature, but yeah, it's mostly from big producers (who are willing to go all scientific for better sales), or from universities located in wine producing regions. Most winemakers are probably either not interested or are too small to afford such a thing anyway.

 

[thewimperoo]

Didn't see this one on the bottle log. 12/23/11 Rose de Gambrinus 375ml

 

[treystu]

Are glasses for sale anymore? Late to the party here.
No idea where on the site they'd be listed for sale.

Bump - I also missed the glassware, and can't find it anymore. Was it a one-time run?

 

[SeaWatchman]

Bump - I also missed the glassware, and can't find it anymore. Was it a one-time run?

We generally do a limited time sale on them around the holidays because they are a huge PITA to pack and get out. We still have some of all our glssses so I'm sure they'll be for sale again

 

[CornAndBeer]

I'm sure they'll be for sale again

 

[thewimperoo]

Didn't see this one on the bottle log. 12/23/11 Rose de Gambrinus 375ml

Repost since picture isn't working

 

[mrand01]

Noticed there's no pics of the new(ish) '15 Cantillon Gueuze magnum - here's some I just took if you'd like to use them (I'm not much of a photographer...)

 

[SeaWatchman]

Repost since picture isn't working

Noticed there's no pics of the new(ish) '15 Cantillon Gueuze magnum - here's some I just took if you'd like to use them (I'm not much of a photographer...)

Thanks guys! I'm planning a major upload/update this weekend so I'll get them!

 

[Saind]

I can't find a page on this stuff, any reason for that?

 

[SeaWatchman]

I can't find a page on this stuff, any reason for that?

I just haven't had a chance to sit down and write the page yet, but it's on the list!

 

[MooseLang]

Random - and not really that important - question:

What was the range of bottling dates for 2013 sticker LPG? I have a bottle that does not have a date stamp. Just curious.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Random - and not really that important - question:

What was the range of bottling dates for 2013 sticker LPG? I have a bottle that does not have a date stamp. Just curious.

04/27/15 has a 2013 sticker on it and a 2015 cork in it.

03/14/16 has a 2013 sticker on it and a season 15/16 cork in it.

Those are the only ones I know of.

 

[BadJustin]

I've seen more than a couple stupid questions on the FB page in the last day or two. Thanks, Trump.

 

[SeaWatchman]

I've seen more than a couple stupid questions on the FB page in the last day or two. Thanks, Trump.

Yeah, I know. It's a fine balance between deleting stupid posts and burning the whole thing to the ground.

 

[BadJustin]

Yeah, I know. It's a fine balance between deleting stupid posts and burning the whole thing to the ground.

Can I vote for option 2? Thanks!




Also: what temperature should I drink my Lambic at?



Please advise.





Obligatory: cc MordorMongo

 

[SeaWatchman]

Can I vote for option 2? Thanks!




Also: what temperature should I drink my Lambic at?



Please advise.





Obligatory: cc MordorMongo

Sigh.