Zeus's rebirth. Non typical, all steam brew stand.

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Most PID's can control 5+ SSR's simultaneously. Well, at least the Auber PIDs can.
5 different setpoints or
an algorithm that switches on each relay at a different response point, ie tapering or
has enough cantact power to switch on all the relays at once ?

Did you order an extra 100A SSR?
Yes.

I still don't see why you would want or need to. 12Kw of heat into 20 gallons of water doesn't require a fast or fine control algorithm.

In case the point is missed, the amount of heat delivered to each vessel is throttled and controlled by its own steam control valve. The controller for the boiler just keeps the water close to the boil off point for the pressure, ie 270Fish for 30 PSI. I just don't want the boiler over pressure valve opening with any frequency.
 
5 different setpoints or
an algorithm that switches on each relay at a different response point, ie tapering or
has enough cantact power to switch on all the relays at once ?

Yes.

I still don't see why you would want or need to. 12Kw of heat into 20 gallons of water doesn't require a fast or fine control algorithm.

In case the point is missed, the amount of heat delivered to each vessel is throttled and controlled by its own steam control valve. The controller for the boiler just keeps the water close to the boil off point for the pressure, ie 270Fish for 30 PSI. I just don't want the boiler over pressure valve opening with any frequency.

Just jumpering the signal wire across multiple PIDs to operate the same. Might have made your wiring easier to do it that way versus one 100a
 
Learn me here, Please....

"SSR" somethin', somethin', relay?

"PID's" ???

SSR = Solid State Relay. Its a relay without contacts that allows a small voltage/power signal to control a big voltage/power signal. In this case, a few ma @ 12VDC will control 240VAC at 50A. Search eBay for examples. By "control" I mean turn on and off, but there are VSSRs which act like dimmer switches, sort of.

Here is one. There are many.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State...403?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b983f7a3

PID = Proportional, Integral and Derivative control. Its a controller that compares where the controlled point is, where it will be and how fast its moving compared to the set point when it outputs the control signal.

The output (water temperature) in our system moves so slow that all we really need is is on/off control, but nobody builds a nice controller of that type, so "everyone" uses PID controllers instead.
 
5 different setpoints or
an algorithm that switches on each relay at a different response point, ie tapering or
has enough cantact power to switch on all the relays at once ?

Yes.

I still don't see why you would want or need to. 12Kw of heat into 20 gallons of water doesn't require a fast or fine control algorithm.

In case the point is missed, the amount of heat delivered to each vessel is throttled and controlled by its own steam control valve. The controller for the boiler just keeps the water close to the boil off point for the pressure, ie 270Fish for 30 PSI. I just don't want the boiler over pressure valve opening with any frequency.

Just making the point that a single PID can control multiple SSRs at once. They all go on and off at the same time. You stated "The only way to make "use" of a 2nd SSR is to run 2 temperature set points with 2 control PIDs/ loops". That is not the case.

I'm not causing trouble. I like your build and interested in seeing you succeed.
 
Just making the point that a single PID can control multiple SSRs at once. They all go on and off at the same time. You stated "The only way to make "use" of a 2nd SSR is to run 2 temperature set points with 2 control PIDs/ loops". That is not the case.

I agree that the PID controller will operate multiple SSRs that way.

I'm not causing trouble. I like your build and interested in seeing you succeed.
Thanks !
 
I'd go for the 6/3, and install a dryer/range plug and/or some 120V receptacles on your wall. You can never have too many receptacles! And then use a dryer/range cord to hook up the panel. I wouldn't hardwire the panel straight to the system; like you alluded to, explaining that to the inspector is a hard one!

As a side note, #6 conductor cable is somewhat marginal for the intended load. It'll work so long as it has space to 'breathe'....and by that I really mean vent heat. Up in the rafters of the ceiling is fine. But if you install it in conduit you'll be exceeding the NEC ampacity limit. But you're fine on voltage drop; no worries there!

Looks like things are coming together :)
 
If you haven't bought the wire yet, I'd buy a long enough piece of 6/3 that you can then reuse and run to the new location... if you have to buy one 10' longer now and have a bit of slack in your run, at least then its not wasted and requiring another cable purchase in xx months from now when you have so many more expenses....

And in regards to servos... you really need to figure out a way to mount one to the cheap valves... and figure out what kind of torque is required to turn the valve and in turn size the servo... Most R/C hobby type stores sell a variety of servos...

Very interesting build, and I love your well thought out and detailed posts... hopefully when it starts to get more "interesting" you include tons of pictures as well...
 
Just making the point that a single PID can control multiple SSRs at once. They all go on and off at the same time.



I'm not causing trouble. I like your build and interested in seeing you succeed.

Thanks stlbeer - this was why I asked about the 50A SSRs. I second your second comment too.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
As a side note, #6 conductor cable is somewhat marginal for the intended load. It'll work so long as it has space to 'breathe'....and by that I really mean vent heat. Up in the rafters of the ceiling is fine. But if you install it in conduit you'll be exceeding the NEC ampacity limit. But you're fine on voltage drop; no worries there.

NMD90 is rated to carry 75 amps in normal wall and ceiling service. This is more than enough for the application I intend to use it in.

http://www.thewaycorp.com/power/nec tables.pdf

Even derated to 80% its still good for 60A.
 
Jeeeeeze Brewman, I turn my back for 1 month, and now you are making a damn STEAM GENERATOR!

Seriously?!?

-W
 
You are making Rube Goldberg jealous. Usually, steam boiler capacity is measured in sq.ft. steam, or lb/hr. steam. Steam modulators are sized and built differently, than an HD zone valve. With condensate open to atmosphere and a full port valve, swung fully open. The steam chest, (that you will need to figure out the size of), will not hold steam at the pressure needed to stay at a high temp. The boiler water being superheated will change state rapidly, in the boiler, due to reduction of pressure, blowing water into the coils. Then, all you will have is a water heater producing steam at atmospheric or slightly above, until valves are closed. Kind of like how 17th century Savory and Newcomen boilers for steam engines worked. Basically, you have a one pipe steam system open to atmosphere when valves are open. You're building a carpet cleaning steam genny, with add on de-superheaters. You would be better off coming off a steam header to a modulator on each coil, with a small steam trap and return on each coil, an equalizer and Hartford Loop. All this helps in maintaining reasonable pressure equilibrium in the boiler and somewhat of a balanced system. The Loop helps in keeping the water above the heaters, if piped correctly. Control the boiler with a pressure switch. Stick a McDonnel Miller low water sensor in the jacket, coupled to a 24 volt auto feeder and done. Modulators can be controlled by PIDS, PODS, WOGs, Floppy Dishes, SSSSSRs, Thermos-couples, WEFEs, Iprods and all kind of esoteric lights and other junk that attract and enthrall poindexters, like Pavlov's dogs to a bell. Just so you know. The riser is usually, minimum 24" above the water line. It helps in getting dry steam to the coils. Ensure that domestic heater elements won't fail at the fusite at superheat temps. Elements for low pressure steamers are built much differently. Even though the elements are covered by a metal plate, God forbid the fusite blows out spewing superheated water. You did a fine job with BTU, kilowatt, change of state, etc.. Brew on and good luck with the venture.
 
No updates?!?!
Was busy working on a project for my wife. I'll get at this next week and more over the next month.

VladOfTrub: I think you have misunderstood how the system is going to be built. Stay tuned.
 
You are making Rube Goldberg jealous. Usually, steam boiler capacity is measured in sq.ft. steam, or lb/hr. steam. Steam modulators are sized and built differently, than an HD zone valve. With condensate open to atmosphere and a full port valve, swung fully open. The steam chest, (that you will need to figure out the size of), will not hold steam at the pressure needed to stay at a high temp. The boiler water being superheated will change state rapidly, in the boiler, due to reduction of pressure, blowing water into the coils. Then, all you will have is a water heater producing steam at atmospheric or slightly above, until valves are closed. Kind of like how 17th century Savory and Newcomen boilers for steam engines worked. Basically, you have a one pipe steam system open to atmosphere when valves are open. You're building a carpet cleaning steam genny, with add on de-superheaters. You would be better off coming off a steam header to a modulator on each coil, with a small steam trap and return on each coil, an equalizer and Hartford Loop. All this helps in maintaining reasonable pressure equilibrium in the boiler and somewhat of a balanced system. The Loop helps in keeping the water above the heaters, if piped correctly. Control the boiler with a pressure switch. Stick a McDonnel Miller low water sensor in the jacket, coupled to a 24 volt auto feeder and done. Modulators can be controlled by PIDS, PODS, WOGs, Floppy Dishes, SSSSSRs, Thermos-couples, WEFEs, Iprods and all kind of esoteric lights and other junk that attract and enthrall poindexters, like Pavlov's dogs to a bell. Just so you know. The riser is usually, minimum 24" above the water line. It helps in getting dry steam to the coils. Ensure that domestic heater elements won't fail at the fusite at superheat temps. Elements for low pressure steamers are built much differently. Even though the elements are covered by a metal plate, God forbid the fusite blows out spewing superheated water. You did a fine job with BTU, kilowatt, change of state, etc.. Brew on and good luck with the venture.

Are you trolling? What is this?
 
Let me throw a wrench into the plan: steam or induction ???

I found a source of 5Kw induction countertop units. The Bayou Classic pots appear to be magnetic enough to use with an induction heat source. My cost delivered would be about $275 per unit.

I'd need at least 2 units, one for the boil kettle and one for the mash tun. That would imply putting an element in the hot liquor tank. However, I'd probably want 3 induction units, an extra one for doing double boils.

The steam setup cost is $300 for the boiler, plus the piping, steam coils and control valves.

The induction cost is $275 x 3 ($825) plus 1 SSR per unit to control them.

The induction setup will be way slower. Each unit draws over 20 amps. I could run 3 in a pinch, but most likely 2 at a time, which will work but isn't ideal. The impetus for going steam was fast heating times and the ability to run multiple vessels as needed. I figure 1/3 to 1/2 of my brew sessions are going to be with a friend, meaning 10 or 15 gallon batches (12 or 18ish gallons in the boil kettle), and I expect than many boils are going to be split, 2x 6 gallon boils or possibly 1x 6 gallon and 1x 12 gallon.

If the steam system speeds up the brew day like I expect it might, I expect many double recipe days, where I'll have a 2nd mash going at the same time the 1st boil is in progress. I think going induction would rule that out.

I'd like to hear people's opinions on this.
 
The induction units appear to draw 5 Kws. Induction units are 90% efficient at best, meaning they will deliver 4.5Kw to the vessel = 15,000 BTU. I was going to size the steam coils to be 20 to 25K BTU.

2 induction units running at once would yield a system power of 9KW to the vessels. 3 would be 13.5 Kw.

My boiler has element power of 12 Kw. However, 20% of that power doesn't go to the boil kettle because the condensate is drained, meaning the effective boil power would be 9.6 Kw. However, the boiler stores energy and the condensate can be used for cleaning or sparge water for the 2nd batch and the boiler delivers 100% of its power to the HLT and possibly the mash tun. So the effective power of the steam setup is 9.6 to 12 Kw, depending on how you use it.

We have a big Kitchen Aid induction cooktop in our kitchen. I love it.

I find it hard to get excited about 4.5Kw trying to bring 12 or 18 gallons of wort to a boil. It will happen, but its going to be slow. With steam it would be easy to upsize the coil and pump more BTUs into the vessel.

FYI, all the 8 Kw induction units appear to need a 460V 3 phase supply.
 
The other factor is the gentleness of the heat. It doesn't matter if you use propane, electric coil burners or induction, the bottom of the pot has roughly the same area and needs to be at the same temperature to transfer the same amount of heat to the liquid. If you are trying to pump a lot of heat into a vessel, scortching is a possibility.

With steam, the maximum coil temperature will be that of the steam, 275F in this case. A lower "liquid contact temperature" is possible because the steam coil has more surface area than the bottom of the pot or a burner and copper has much better heat transfer than does stainless steel.

I realize that scortching isn't usually a problem when the burners are run properly, but with steam its almost impossible to scortch and the heat output is limited only by how much steam coil you want to put in the vessel.
 
It turns out the induction heating option is a non starter, due to cost. The cheapest I can get a 5Kw unit is over $300. Its too much to spend for something that won't work as well, in my opinion anyway.

Onward with the steam system.
 
Looking forward to seeing the steam option completed... but would electric heating elements in the pots not work as good/better than induction?
 
Looking forward to seeing the steam option completed... but would electric heating elements in the pots not work as good/better than induction?

I don't like having the heating element in the mash tun. I like doing step mashes. I guess a low density heating element in RIMS circuit would be OK, but my experience with electric is that its slow.
 
"''"Are you trolling? What is this?"""

No, Why are you? I can only tell you what happens. I can't tell you how to understand it, Junior.

Brewman, thanks for the input. Somewhere in your system you'll generate steam. If you are focused on price. Steam systems aren't cheap to build nor maintain. Anyway, I thought you did a great job on the numbers. Just becareful, 15 pounds of steam and superheated water can be dangerous if something goes haywire. Certain older direct fired steam kettles work somewhat on the same principal as your design. The jacket is filled with a certain volume of water. A pressure relief is on the top of the jacket. When steam pressure hits relief set point the valve dumps steam. When that occurs, a feeder adds water. The cool water injected into the jacket cools the steam causing a pressure reduction, until the boiler catches up. At the time when water is added, efficiency drops. That's the way the manufacturer maintains enough boiler water to create the amount of steam, usually, measured in sq.ft. or lbs. hr. needed for the process. The design creates a margin of safety and control. When the relief opens in those types of kettle it makes a lot of noise. Rapid reduction of steam pressure is used in vacuum canning. Brew on and good luck with the project.
 
What about the heating elements in the HLT and BK and just running herms?

The problem with HERMS that uses the HLT as the heat source for the exchanger is that its very slow at adding heat to the mash. The HLT is usually run at 190F max, usually lower than that. (170F) If you go back and look at the heat transfer numbers for water to water through copper (or even worse, stainless steel), its not that good. Furthermore, the water in the HLT must be continually stirred or pumped in order to maximize the transfer of heat from the HLT water to the heat exchange coil.

My last brew stand used a HERMS setup. I don't consider it a good system for step mashing. I'd add heat directly to the mash tun or set up a RIMS system before I'd set up a HERMS system.

I'm busy with family stuff this weekend, but the next month of my life is pretty much wide open for working on my steam system.
 
ahh, that makes complete sense, especially for step mashing... I look forward to following this thread still and enjoy your weekend with the family!
 
"''"Are you trolling? What is this?"""

No, Why are you? I can only tell you what happens. I can't tell you how to understand it, Junior.

Brewman, thanks for the input. Somewhere in your system you'll generate steam. If you are focused on price. Steam systems aren't cheap to build nor maintain. Anyway, I thought you did a great job on the numbers. Just becareful, 15 pounds of steam and superheated water can be dangerous if something goes haywire. Certain older direct fired steam kettles work somewhat on the same principal as your design. The jacket is filled with a certain volume of water. A pressure relief is on the top of the jacket. When steam pressure hits relief set point the valve dumps steam. When that occurs, a feeder adds water. The cool water injected into the jacket cools the steam causing a pressure reduction, until the boiler catches up. At the time when water is added, efficiency drops. That's the way the manufacturer maintains enough boiler water to create the amount of steam, usually, measured in sq.ft. or lbs. hr. needed for the process. The design creates a margin of safety and control. When the relief opens in those types of kettle it makes a lot of noise. Rapid reduction of steam pressure is used in vacuum canning. Brew on and good luck with the project.

I agree.

Also, while it's certainly true that the phase change contains the bulk of the energy, you've got a big-ol-tank of water that you have to bring up to the boiling point at pressure. That's a chunk (how much water in the water tank again?) more than the amount of boil off you're going to get from the BK. The energy to heat that water is wasted because you still have the same amount of hot water at the end, and it's a lot. Either still in the water tank or drained out as condensate. If you return the condensate to the boiler you can get away with a lot less water in the boiler, provided you cover the elements etc.

Don't tell me you're giving up on the steam idea!
 
I'm not going to get into an argument about whether its going to work or not. At this point I have the parts so I'll put it together and let the results speak for themselves.

I'll be working on it this weekend.

The steam control valve arrived this week.
 
I've been swamped the last few weeks. I'll be working on it today and this weekend. I'll post pictures as I go.
 
I accepted a founding postion with a startup company and thus I'm working my butt off. Not much time for working on the brewery these days.
 
Hey Brewman, it's been a while since you last had time to work on your system, or even posted! Has the hectic level of activity at your new company tapered off a little in the 6 months you've been there, so there'd possibly be light at the end of the tunnel, and you'll soon(ish) have a chance to resume the build? I'd love to see how it works out as well, but I understand with a family to support that work comes first. What's new and exciting in your world?
 
Well... I left the startup about a month after my previous post. The market opportunity turned out to be much smaller and different from what was in the marketing plan when I started. Nevertheless, I've been swamped with work and things to do ever since. 3 kids + projects + wife's projects + a few house mods = busy.

However, I made a New Year's resolution to get back into brewing and getting the brewery up and running will be the first step. I expect to start working on it shortly.
 
Small steps... I got the brewery space entirely cleaned up. I also sorted all my brewing supplies, parts and equipment, some of which has been in storage for 7 years. It feels great to have this done.

I'll start on the wiring this week. I have to pull 50 feet of 6/3 from the breaker box to the brewing area. Doesn't sound like much, but the coil of wire weighs about 40 pounds. Makes 14/3 seem like spaghetti !

Don't know if I'll get it done before the weekend and as usual, my next weekend is spoken for. But I'll keep plugging away at this project. The hardest part was starting and getting organized. I'm pumped to be working on it again. I can't wait to start running some trials.
 
Sorry to hear it not working out at the startup, often times business plans vs. market realities are worlds apart. Glad to see you're pumped about this, and have gotten things organized. I've found that can be half the battle, just getting things ready to go and in their own proper place can make a huge difference, rather than just looking at an apparent mountain of stuff, going Where do I begin? I fight that battle constantly in my world.. Anywho, glad to see you're back in the saddle, and I'll be watching this thread with renewed interest. Keep up the great working and postings! Thanks
 
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