So, anything new and exciting in the Brewman saga as of late?
Zeus's rebirth. Non typical, all steam brew stand.
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I/we got the suite cleaned out, painted, new carpet, a couple upgrades and it now has a new tenant living in it. Whew ! I'm tired just thinking about it. I have a couple little things to tend to yet this week and then its totally done.
Brewers Hardware got my order from March shipped out last week. Its got some parts I need to set up the mash tun HX.
I am severely distracted from brewing at the moment by a big landscaping project on our property. Although we aren't going to tackle it until the fall (September), it involves a bunch of design work, permits, equipment, etc. so I'm trying to get that organized. The deadline for the permit application is mid July. Sounds like I should have lots of time, but there are a lot of diverse pieces to bring together. As soon as I'm caught up with that, its back to testing the boiler.
I finally got the lights in a good part of my garage wired up tonight. I now have lights over my welding table !
Prior to this I hated working in my garage because the lighting was terrible. I should now be able to sneak out there after dinner and tinker on brewing equipment.
Prior to this I hated working in my garage because the lighting was terrible. I should now be able to sneak out there after dinner and tinker on brewing equipment.
Sweet! Be sure to take lotsa pics, they are always appreciated. I just got my new kegerator hooked up this weekend, it has room for 3 1/6th kegs, though currently has only 2 taps from the mfg. I'll have to get creative for the 3rd one. Looking forward to seeing how your project progresses!
Hey Brewman, it's been a month, anything new and exciting going on in your world?
I went to NHC in San Diego and had an absolute blast. I'm super pumped to get brewing again.
My fittings finally arrived from Brewers Hardware. I haven't even opened them.
I'm working on a very big landscaping project that has me totally consumed. Its taking all my spare time and then some. I got to sleep last night at 1:30 AM.
The steam brewery is probably on hold until late fall. I'm dying to work on it, but as long as the weather is good I have to keep working on outside stuff. As soon as the weather turns, I'll be back inside working on it.
My fittings finally arrived from Brewers Hardware. I haven't even opened them.
I'm working on a very big landscaping project that has me totally consumed. Its taking all my spare time and then some. I got to sleep last night at 1:30 AM.
The steam brewery is probably on hold until late fall. I'm dying to work on it, but as long as the weather is good I have to keep working on outside stuff. As soon as the weather turns, I'll be back inside working on it.
Its fall. I've started working on this again.
I ordered the final parts to put it together, including the steam valves so that it can be automated. They should be here in 3 weeks, taking the slow boat from China.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=309276&stc=1&d=1444776627
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=309277&stc=1&d=1444776627
I ordered the final parts to put it together, including the steam valves so that it can be automated. They should be here in 3 weeks, taking the slow boat from China.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=309276&stc=1&d=1444776627
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=309277&stc=1&d=1444776627
512brew-com
Active Member
Fantastic! I've been waiting for this. I'm really excited for the possibilities. This is one of the best ideas on HBT.
Glad to see your back at it! Keep us posted, love to see you finish and enjoy brewing on it!
John
John
Cant wait to see your progress!
The steam valves finally arrived. They really did take the slow boat from China.
I don't see a pressure rating on them for steam. Or a temperature rating. Only water, oil and air. I'm hoping that they have the right valve seat material and that the vendor didn't massage the specs to get a sale. Otherwise they look great.
I don't see a pressure rating on them for steam. Or a temperature rating. Only water, oil and air. I'm hoping that they have the right valve seat material and that the vendor didn't massage the specs to get a sale. Otherwise they look great.
Looks nice! Has the assembling begun?
Cool! As always, pics are greatly appreciated, especially on this uber build!
I spent some time figuring out how to set up the controls and started laying out the boiler control box.
I decided that the boiler is going to have its own control box, separate from the kettle controls. I'm doing this because the boiler control box has a big power cable running into it and it needs to be close to the boiler. That is not where I want the kettle controls. And the kettle control box only needs 120VAC power to run the pumps. It doesn't need a big 240VAC cable running into it.
I'm undecided on how to set up the kettle control box. Part of me wants to use PID controllers, part of me wants to run it from an RPi server. I'll give this some thought while I get the boil going. The good thing about the kettle control box being its own box is that it is much easier to work on and change.
Pics to follow when I work on it again.
I decided that the boiler is going to have its own control box, separate from the kettle controls. I'm doing this because the boiler control box has a big power cable running into it and it needs to be close to the boiler. That is not where I want the kettle controls. And the kettle control box only needs 120VAC power to run the pumps. It doesn't need a big 240VAC cable running into it.
I'm undecided on how to set up the kettle control box. Part of me wants to use PID controllers, part of me wants to run it from an RPi server. I'll give this some thought while I get the boil going. The good thing about the kettle control box being its own box is that it is much easier to work on and change.
Pics to follow when I work on it again.
Hey Brewman, could you please give us your thoughts on using PID controllers, vs. an RPi server. Pros/cons kind of thing. As you're trying to decide between them tells me that there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and that there obviously isn't a perfect way to do it. Thanks!
OK, here is my $0.02.
I'd like to set up an RPi to do the local control of the steam valves, pumps and to monitor temps because I think it is way more versatile. For example, one could use several temp sensors in the mash tun instead of just one on the temp control input of the PID. One could also do data logging, view graphs, run timers, plot temp gains, etc. For me, the big aspect of doing an RPi controller is that I can be in another room while watching the process on a browser. That makes my brew days much easier.
The downside of all that is that I don't know of a currently available (open source) program that does this and thus I'd have to write it myself. Right now I'm in "lets just get it running" mode, so I don't want to take the time to do that, so I'll probably just use PID controllers and switches.
There is also a cost factor. An RPi, relay board and DS18 temperature sensors are way less expensive than PID controllers, DIN timers, thermocouples, manual switches and all the cabling that needs.
I'm going to get the boiler controller working first and worry about the kettle controls later. I just want to get it running and start brewing. I'm using a PID and wired electronics for the boiler control box because boilers are simple to control and I want it to be foolproof.
512brew-com
Active Member
Hey brewman, search for Doug Edey and his open-source strange brew controller software, here in the forums. Seems like it would fit the bill.
512brew-com
Active Member
Looks like it would work perfectly. And if it didn't, I could modify it. Many thanks for the tip.
Good timing this. I was lamenting that the kettle controller wasn't going to be automated. I'd rather not wire up a big control panel only to take it apart once I went with the RPi.
I picked up a 10x10x4 control box for the kettle controller. I have a 12x12x4 box for the boiler control.
FWIW, the boiler controller just brings the boiler up to temp and holds it there. It also monitors the sensors (water level, boiler pressure) to make sure that nothing goes awry. I'm using a PID on it, but it is overkill. But the PID gives me a visual temp reading, which is nice. I backed it up with an old fashion pressure gauge. I'm, looking for multiple levels of redundancy to prevent a mishap.
Thus far I have
- Watts 30PSI relief valve. I wish it was 35 PSI, so there are no accidental discharges.
- 35 PSI adjustable pressure switch
- 30 PSI pressure gauge
- water level sensor switch
- PID measuring temperature, controlling the elements
Any one of these devices, except the gauge, can shut off the boiler. Multiple devices would have to fail and you'd have to ignore a lot of signs before the boiler pressure would get above 30 PSI. And then all that would happen is that the pressure relief valve would open and vent.
Edit: StrangeBrew looks like a great controller or start thereof. It looks like I need to spend more time on HBT to keep abreast of everything that goes on.
Here is the schematic and control layout for the boiler controller.
The SCRs are missing a ground connection to complete the 12V circuit.
The level and pressure sensors are actually on the boiler, but drawing them there would have messed up the schematic too much, so I left them as part of the controller.
The boiler is controlled by temperature, not pressure. It could be pressure controlled. I'll see how this works first.
Excuse my chicken scratches.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=323114&stc=1&d=1450284325
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=323115&stc=1&d=1450284325
The SCRs are missing a ground connection to complete the 12V circuit.
The level and pressure sensors are actually on the boiler, but drawing them there would have messed up the schematic too much, so I left them as part of the controller.
The boiler is controlled by temperature, not pressure. It could be pressure controlled. I'll see how this works first.
Excuse my chicken scratches.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=323114&stc=1&d=1450284325
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=323115&stc=1&d=1450284325
StMarcos
Well-Known Member
Glad to see the updates. Keep em coming....
Stephonovich
Well-Known Member
Just read through the entire thread. Posting to follow. Great stuff!
Thanks for the support, guys.
I'm doing the best I can to get time to work on this. FWIW, in addition to doing a big drainage project in our yard, we insulated and rewired a triple car garage this fall. Now I find that our house has heating issues, so that too needs attention.
Having said that, I'm making brewing a priority, meaning this projects gets time even when the other projects need doing. If I don't do that, it will never get attention. I had to do the drainage project first because there was water getting to the foundation of our house at all 4 corners. We fixed 3 of them. And insulating and wiring the garage was a big priority because now it is comfortable to work in in the winter. That will help immensely with this brewing project.
I'm doing the best I can to get time to work on this. FWIW, in addition to doing a big drainage project in our yard, we insulated and rewired a triple car garage this fall. Now I find that our house has heating issues, so that too needs attention.
Having said that, I'm making brewing a priority, meaning this projects gets time even when the other projects need doing. If I don't do that, it will never get attention. I had to do the drainage project first because there was water getting to the foundation of our house at all 4 corners. We fixed 3 of them. And insulating and wiring the garage was a big priority because now it is comfortable to work in in the winter. That will help immensely with this brewing project.
There has been a lot of mucking around figuring things out for the steam system. But I feel it will be the best way to heat the mash and possibly the boil without carmelizing or scorching and getting around some of the temperature control issues discussed in this thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=565660
FYI, I attended the 2015 NHC in San Diego.
Warren Haskell of Devil's Backbone Brewing Co. gave a presentation entitled " Bringing the Brewery Home".
In his presentation, he described an experiment whereby he brewed 2 identical Czech lagers, one at his microbrewery and the other on his home system. He brought tasting samples from both to the presentation to allow the participants to experience them side by side.
There was a considerable difference in taste and appearance between the two. In a post presentation discussion with me, he opined that 80% of the difference between the two was due to how the worts were boiled. The homebrew version was heated by direct flame on the kettle, which resulted in a darkening in appearance and flavor due to caramelization. The microbrewery version was boiled using steam and was thus considerably lighter and cleaner tasting due to the lack of caramelization.
It is my opinion that all homebrew suffers from this effect, especially heavier beers and beers with longer boil times. It is something that homebrewers don't yet realize and chalk up to a "homebrew flavor profile". If and when homebrewers realize the source of this flavor "profile", they will be looking for ways to remove it, ie they will want a steam based brewing system.
The fast heating times, safety and precise mash temp control will just be additional benefits. There is a reason why real breweries brew with steam.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=565660
FYI, I attended the 2015 NHC in San Diego.
Warren Haskell of Devil's Backbone Brewing Co. gave a presentation entitled " Bringing the Brewery Home".
In his presentation, he described an experiment whereby he brewed 2 identical Czech lagers, one at his microbrewery and the other on his home system. He brought tasting samples from both to the presentation to allow the participants to experience them side by side.
There was a considerable difference in taste and appearance between the two. In a post presentation discussion with me, he opined that 80% of the difference between the two was due to how the worts were boiled. The homebrew version was heated by direct flame on the kettle, which resulted in a darkening in appearance and flavor due to caramelization. The microbrewery version was boiled using steam and was thus considerably lighter and cleaner tasting due to the lack of caramelization.
It is my opinion that all homebrew suffers from this effect, especially heavier beers and beers with longer boil times. It is something that homebrewers don't yet realize and chalk up to a "homebrew flavor profile". If and when homebrewers realize the source of this flavor "profile", they will be looking for ways to remove it, ie they will want a steam based brewing system.
The fast heating times, safety and precise mash temp control will just be additional benefits. There is a reason why real breweries brew with steam.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
There are many "real breweries" that use direct fire gas and electric heating.
It's going to be cool looking forward to the finished system.
It's going to be cool looking forward to the finished system.
Hey Brewman, any time over the holidays to work on the beast? Oh, and I sent you a PM.
I got nothing done on it over the holidays. Too much celebrating and my wife had me working on other things. I'm probably going to take a couple days off and focus on it, because I'm tired of not being able to brew. Ugghhh...
As far as choosing a suitable water heater, most any one will work provided it has 2 elements and a port in the top for steam vapor to escape from. A side port will work as well, provided it is near the top and significantly above the top element.
There are 2 over riding principles here.
1) The water level needs to be below the steam output port so that the boiler supplies water vapor (ie steam) and not liquid water.
2) The elements need to be submersed in water (ie liquid) all the time. They will probably burn out if the water level drops below them as I doubt that steam would keep them cool enough.
As far as durability goes, I don't think this is an especially hard usage for a water heater. Since we are removing the stock elements, they are of little concern, as is the temperature control. So the durability of those components doesn't matter. All we are basically buying is a pressure rated tank. I can't see corrosion being a problem as the thing will only be fired 20 hours a year and can be drained in between sessions.
The biggest concern I have is how the plastic liner (coating) inside the tank is going to react to 275F steam. Normal hot water temperature is less than 140F and the liner is in contact with liquid water, not steam.
Thanks for the replies. My initial worry was that you had found and were happy with the side intake style, and since they changed the efficiency rules for water heaters last April, it seems that the side discharge style has now gone away. One thing I believe you mentioned was that you might be laying them on the side, and this is something you were happy about for your setup, with the ports coming out that way would work particularly well? I might be remembering wrong, so if it really doesn't matter, top or side, that is a good thing to know.
I did find a similar one by both American Water Heaters and A.O. Smith (lowboy style), which have a glass lined tank, that I would think would stand up to the abuse better than plastic. One thing I don't understand is how they can use glass as a lining, in a cylinder that is made out of metal, under pressure. I know the tanks are designed for about 300psi, but as they are metal, when pressurized, the metal would I believe expand at least a little, as well as when being heated. The expansion coefficient of glass and metal must be somewhat different, but maybe not significantly? I didn't think glass would expand under pressure at all, and would crack, so though it is probably very durable, how does it not crack from expansion of the underlying metal? More a rhetorical question than anything else, unless someone knows of course!
If it is now going to be vertical, how much headroom for steam does it need? 1/4 tank? The elements have to be covered of course, how much do you plan them to be covered, so they don't accidentally become exposed during a boil? Or are you thinking of adding an automatic water fill to the tank to keep it's level consistent? How many pounds of steam per hour do you think that this setup with the dual 6k elements is going to produce?
What do you think of using an RO to supply the water in the system? I have a fairly high flow (150 GPD) system that I purchased from an aquarium supply house, and even bought the deionizer for it as part of a package deal. So, I have plenty of water, for all purposes, but not sure if water that pure is good for brewing? Does it need some minerals in it for taste?
I have a couple questions about building a similiar setup, using materials I already have. For the tubing coil, I have about 160' of type L 1/2" ID (5/8" OD) copper tubing. I know that you are using 1/4", would there be a problem using some a little larger? It's rated to over 700psi, and has a thicker wall than standard tubing, so I'd think it would be ok, but what are your thoughts? Are you plumbing your tubing permanently into the tanks, or are you making the coils removable? What about running it at 40 or even 50psi, as it is only 1/3 of it's max working pressure, and 1/6 of it's burst rating, would there be any significant downsides? Possibly getting the other components that are rated that high may be an issue? Are the steam valves you have proportional, or just open/close, and are they the normally closed design?
I am watching this with keen interest, and can't wait till you get it bolted together, and start the actual testing, and then brewing! I'm sure there will be a lot of trial and error, as well as upgrades along the way, and that's a part of the fun of it, at least for me. Improving when needed, to make it work better and more consistently. Thank you for building this and documenting it so well. You are truly blazing a trail for the rest of us to follow, and I appreciate it.
I did find a similar one by both American Water Heaters and A.O. Smith (lowboy style), which have a glass lined tank, that I would think would stand up to the abuse better than plastic. One thing I don't understand is how they can use glass as a lining, in a cylinder that is made out of metal, under pressure. I know the tanks are designed for about 300psi, but as they are metal, when pressurized, the metal would I believe expand at least a little, as well as when being heated. The expansion coefficient of glass and metal must be somewhat different, but maybe not significantly? I didn't think glass would expand under pressure at all, and would crack, so though it is probably very durable, how does it not crack from expansion of the underlying metal? More a rhetorical question than anything else, unless someone knows of course!
If it is now going to be vertical, how much headroom for steam does it need? 1/4 tank? The elements have to be covered of course, how much do you plan them to be covered, so they don't accidentally become exposed during a boil? Or are you thinking of adding an automatic water fill to the tank to keep it's level consistent? How many pounds of steam per hour do you think that this setup with the dual 6k elements is going to produce?
What do you think of using an RO to supply the water in the system? I have a fairly high flow (150 GPD) system that I purchased from an aquarium supply house, and even bought the deionizer for it as part of a package deal. So, I have plenty of water, for all purposes, but not sure if water that pure is good for brewing? Does it need some minerals in it for taste?
I have a couple questions about building a similiar setup, using materials I already have. For the tubing coil, I have about 160' of type L 1/2" ID (5/8" OD) copper tubing. I know that you are using 1/4", would there be a problem using some a little larger? It's rated to over 700psi, and has a thicker wall than standard tubing, so I'd think it would be ok, but what are your thoughts? Are you plumbing your tubing permanently into the tanks, or are you making the coils removable? What about running it at 40 or even 50psi, as it is only 1/3 of it's max working pressure, and 1/6 of it's burst rating, would there be any significant downsides? Possibly getting the other components that are rated that high may be an issue? Are the steam valves you have proportional, or just open/close, and are they the normally closed design?
I am watching this with keen interest, and can't wait till you get it bolted together, and start the actual testing, and then brewing! I'm sure there will be a lot of trial and error, as well as upgrades along the way, and that's a part of the fun of it, at least for me. Improving when needed, to make it work better and more consistently. Thank you for building this and documenting it so well. You are truly blazing a trail for the rest of us to follow, and I appreciate it.
Sorry for the delayed reply. It has been a long week.
The only real criteria is that the tank has an outlet right at the top for the vapor to get out from. My tank had an anode rod going in from the top. This is now the steam exit. Some hot water heaters have internal pipes for the hot and the cold. I think the cold pipe goes right to the bottom so that any cold water introduced can't easily make it to the hot water exit. The cold inlet on my hot water heater is right at the bottom and has some sort of plastic diffuser plate on it.
I think all hot water heaters come with an anode and I'll bet that 90% of the time it goes in from the top. That would make a great steam outlet port.
I'm guessing that the liner material has a high co efficient of expansion than the steel and that the shell keeps it from cracking in that scenario.
The only real criteria is that the tank has an outlet right at the top for the vapor to get out from. My tank had an anode rod going in from the top. This is now the steam exit. Some hot water heaters have internal pipes for the hot and the cold. I think the cold pipe goes right to the bottom so that any cold water introduced can't easily make it to the hot water exit. The cold inlet on my hot water heater is right at the bottom and has some sort of plastic diffuser plate on it.
I think all hot water heaters come with an anode and I'll bet that 90% of the time it goes in from the top. That would make a great steam outlet port.
For the record, I'm not sure if mine is plastic or glass lined. It looks plasticy to me, but maybe it is glass.
One thing I don't understand is how they can use glass as a lining, in a cylinder that is made out of metal, under pressure. I know the tanks are designed for about 300psi, but as they are metal, when pressurized, the metal would I believe expand at least a little, as well as when being heated. The expansion coefficient of glass and metal must be somewhat different, but maybe not significantly? I didn't think glass would expand under pressure at all, and would crack, so though it is probably very durable, how does it not crack from expansion of the underlying metal? More a rhetorical question than anything else, unless someone knows of course!
I'm guessing that the liner material has a high co efficient of expansion than the steel and that the shell keeps it from cracking in that scenario.
Thanks for the great reply, and sorry about mixing in non-build related questions, I just got going and apparently put down whatever questions came into my head at the time... I think I may hold off on buying a heater for now, as all my scrounging has come up blank for a side intake like yours has, and I'd like to see how yours holds up on the inside. I know that the other ones I had found start at double what your model in its currently available, top in/out form costs, so if it causes you heartburn, I can just go with the 'better' version.
The reason I had asked about water was if it went thru an RO, it should have nothing in it, and theoretically should have no deposits on anything internal, elements, tank, lines, etc. I'd think the same thing with distilled water?
The reason I asked about lbs of steam, is that for fun I was perusing Fleabay and came across this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371074377211?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
which it says on it's label makes 10 lbs of steam/hr. The price is very steep, but I was wondering if something that size would be able to keep up with the needs of the brewery, if one came across something similar at a screaming deal of a price? I don't know how to convert BTU's into lbs of steam.
Is a proportional valve your end goal if possible, or isn't it necessary, off and on would be good enough?
You mentioned permanently mounted coils, are there any special design considerations where cleaning is concerned?
I'll hold off on more questions, and just let you build it, watch what happens, and proceed from there. Thanks again, keep up the great work, take lots of pics, and post on the build as often as you can. All the best! Oh, and I hope next week is a lot better week for you than last week was, because I can relate, I had a _very_ bad week last week as well.
*edit* Well, while searching around about steam and HP and such, I came across this explanation of steam lb/hr via BTU calculation (below) on ask.com, and it looks like, if I did the numbers correctly, this will put out 42.2 lbs per hour if your heat input is a little over 40,000 BTU. Which makes that "big bad boiler" I mentioned above seem pretty small fry. Especially considering it is designed for that, but then, looking closer at the #'s, it is only pulling 6 amps (three phase) at 480, so that's 12a at 240 (+/- with single phase, but ballpark), so I guess it isn't such a surprise, as 12,000w is pulling 50a at 240v, that yours would stomp all over it.
"Convert the BTUs into hp units first. One unit of hp is equal to 33,472 BTUs. Thus, you will divide the BTUs by 33,472 to get your hp units.
For example, if your BTUs equal 7,363,840, then we'll divide that number by 33,472, giving us 220 hp units (7,363,840/33472 = 220).
Convert your units of hp into pounds of steam per hour by multiplying the number calculated in the previous step by 34.5.
Using numbers from our previous example, if you multiply 220 by 34.5, then you get 7,590 pounds of steam per hour created by your boiler (220 x 34.5 = 7,590)."
Just for fun I pinged the mfg of the boiler I referenced above, asking about slightly larger units, and this is what I got back:
7 lbs per hour / ampere draw 16 amps / weights approx. 65 lbs
12 lbs per hour / ampere draw 24 amps / weights approx. 150 lbs
18 lbs per hour / ampere draw 36 amps / weights approx 160 lbs
30 lbs per hour / ampere draw 48 amps / weights approx 140 lbs
50 lbs per hour / ampere draw 72 amps / weights approx 165 lbs
I did reply, asking for information on even bigger units, still single phase, he replied that he had 30, and 50, nothing in between. He also said that you will get up to 60 pph on the larger one but not warranted. Interesting info to know. And even the least expensive one is 3-4x the cost of your heating setup, and doesn't have nearly the output, which I find surprising. Guess I'm just geeking out a little bit here, sorry...
The reason I had asked about water was if it went thru an RO, it should have nothing in it, and theoretically should have no deposits on anything internal, elements, tank, lines, etc. I'd think the same thing with distilled water?
The reason I asked about lbs of steam, is that for fun I was perusing Fleabay and came across this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371074377211?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
which it says on it's label makes 10 lbs of steam/hr. The price is very steep, but I was wondering if something that size would be able to keep up with the needs of the brewery, if one came across something similar at a screaming deal of a price? I don't know how to convert BTU's into lbs of steam.
Is a proportional valve your end goal if possible, or isn't it necessary, off and on would be good enough?
You mentioned permanently mounted coils, are there any special design considerations where cleaning is concerned?
I'll hold off on more questions, and just let you build it, watch what happens, and proceed from there. Thanks again, keep up the great work, take lots of pics, and post on the build as often as you can. All the best! Oh, and I hope next week is a lot better week for you than last week was, because I can relate, I had a _very_ bad week last week as well.
*edit* Well, while searching around about steam and HP and such, I came across this explanation of steam lb/hr via BTU calculation (below) on ask.com, and it looks like, if I did the numbers correctly, this will put out 42.2 lbs per hour if your heat input is a little over 40,000 BTU. Which makes that "big bad boiler" I mentioned above seem pretty small fry. Especially considering it is designed for that, but then, looking closer at the #'s, it is only pulling 6 amps (three phase) at 480, so that's 12a at 240 (+/- with single phase, but ballpark), so I guess it isn't such a surprise, as 12,000w is pulling 50a at 240v, that yours would stomp all over it.
"Convert the BTUs into hp units first. One unit of hp is equal to 33,472 BTUs. Thus, you will divide the BTUs by 33,472 to get your hp units.
For example, if your BTUs equal 7,363,840, then we'll divide that number by 33,472, giving us 220 hp units (7,363,840/33472 = 220).
Convert your units of hp into pounds of steam per hour by multiplying the number calculated in the previous step by 34.5.
Using numbers from our previous example, if you multiply 220 by 34.5, then you get 7,590 pounds of steam per hour created by your boiler (220 x 34.5 = 7,590)."
Just for fun I pinged the mfg of the boiler I referenced above, asking about slightly larger units, and this is what I got back:
7 lbs per hour / ampere draw 16 amps / weights approx. 65 lbs
12 lbs per hour / ampere draw 24 amps / weights approx. 150 lbs
18 lbs per hour / ampere draw 36 amps / weights approx 160 lbs
30 lbs per hour / ampere draw 48 amps / weights approx 140 lbs
50 lbs per hour / ampere draw 72 amps / weights approx 165 lbs
I did reply, asking for information on even bigger units, still single phase, he replied that he had 30, and 50, nothing in between. He also said that you will get up to 60 pph on the larger one but not warranted. Interesting info to know. And even the least expensive one is 3-4x the cost of your heating setup, and doesn't have nearly the output, which I find surprising. Guess I'm just geeking out a little bit here, sorry...
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You make any more progress on the build, Brewman?
Givin' it a bump!
Lucky! lol Sounds great, thanks for the heads up and looking forward to seeing what's new and exciting. I'm making slow progress on mine as well, so consider yourself an inspiration!
*edit* Wait a minute, aren't you in CA? You're almost in MX already! Hope the weather for you was even nicer down there than it was at home. The 70's in CA would be quite welcome after enduring months of the 20s-30s (and much worse) here... ;-)
*edit* Wait a minute, aren't you in CA? You're almost in MX already! Hope the weather for you was even nicer down there than it was at home. The 70's in CA would be quite welcome after enduring months of the 20s-30s (and much worse) here... ;-)
mal209
Member
I've been following this thread for a while- any updates?
A few comments: Your water heater should be OK. I sell "american water heater" at my day job at a boiler manufacturer (i believe the same parent company as AO smith) and they are typically "glass lined" not plastic lined. If i remember correctly, they spin a thin film of glass for corrosion resistance, very thin and flexible enough to not crack with thermal expansion (although over time you may exceed this and shorten the life of the tank- not the point). They do, however, typically ship with a dip tube and the nipples on top are "dielectric" nipples, with a plastic interior- so those might need to be removed (they are just threaded into the tank).
Storing your tank at high temperature/pressure will be good for storage, but i ran some numbers with the system I'm designing, and i only need 5.5 psi of steam to boil a 1/2 bbl batch (start with 19.5, end with 15). and this is through a 1mm thick stainless pot.
I can lay out the numbers if anyone is interested, but the whole metric to imperial and back and forth gets ugly fast.
Once you start running, your steam pressure should drop significantly, but shouldnt be a problem. The one catch is if you are running an open loop, i think you might need to constrict the vent so that your steam-water phase change occurs above 212 to get the bulk of the energy of the steam into the wort. Ball valve or back-pressure regulator, perhaps?
For my calcs i needed the phase change at ~230F (5.5psig) to get the proper heat transfer.
Very cool project, and thanks for posting everything in such detail. The engineer in me cant help but geek out over builds like this...
A few comments: Your water heater should be OK. I sell "american water heater" at my day job at a boiler manufacturer (i believe the same parent company as AO smith) and they are typically "glass lined" not plastic lined. If i remember correctly, they spin a thin film of glass for corrosion resistance, very thin and flexible enough to not crack with thermal expansion (although over time you may exceed this and shorten the life of the tank- not the point). They do, however, typically ship with a dip tube and the nipples on top are "dielectric" nipples, with a plastic interior- so those might need to be removed (they are just threaded into the tank).
Storing your tank at high temperature/pressure will be good for storage, but i ran some numbers with the system I'm designing, and i only need 5.5 psi of steam to boil a 1/2 bbl batch (start with 19.5, end with 15). and this is through a 1mm thick stainless pot.
I can lay out the numbers if anyone is interested, but the whole metric to imperial and back and forth gets ugly fast.
Once you start running, your steam pressure should drop significantly, but shouldnt be a problem. The one catch is if you are running an open loop, i think you might need to constrict the vent so that your steam-water phase change occurs above 212 to get the bulk of the energy of the steam into the wort. Ball valve or back-pressure regulator, perhaps?
For my calcs i needed the phase change at ~230F (5.5psig) to get the proper heat transfer.
Very cool project, and thanks for posting everything in such detail. The engineer in me cant help but geek out over builds like this...
Mal, thanks for the kick. A week or 2 ago, of course while I was no where near the computer, I was thinking about Brewman and if he had made any progress on it as well, and by the time I got home I had completely forgotten. I've been really busy with non-brewing things, so I've been away pretty much since my last post here, but just recieved the email reminder of your posting, so I thought I'd log back in and see what was up, hoping he had replied to your thread. Nothing so far, but he is a pretty busy individual, so I expect he'll pop back in in the next couple days, hopefully with some exciting news and more great pictures! I plan on following in his footsteps once I get the brewery built, but that won't be completed till mid summer (if everything goes well), and if I am lucky, he'll have his setup up and running.
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