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Congratulations on your first brew. I hope you like the difference. I started out boiling but have moved to the yeast scavenging as it is a big time saver. Yes, the yeast will drop out and leave some creamy residue in your HLT just like your fermenter. A quick hose out on brew day will solve the issue.

Hope you stay with it as it is kind of complex when you factor in the hot and cold side but it gets easier. Just a new way to think about your brewing approach. If you have not already, I would go register at the LOB forums to get more detailed info. In the end it is just high level good brewing practices. Prosit!
 
Robert65 said:
I have been oxygenating for 4 minutes lately. Today I oxygenated for 2 minutes, pitched, then ran 2 minutes more. I'll let you know if I can tell a difference. Though other factors, like an adjustment in my sulfite dosage and slight changes in wort gravity, pitch rate, and pitching temperature compared to recent batches may obscure any effects.
Click to expand...
So this seems like a fine balance between input sulfites, batch specifics and oxygenation time at the pitch stage. What flow rate are you using with the 4 minutes of time? On a normal homebrew scale, 4 minutes would be a huge amount of time at say 1/2 LPM. If one needs to oxygenate this much then maybe you can reduce your input sulfites? Or, is it best practice for safeguarding to error on the high side with the trifecta and obliterate it right before the yeast.

Kind of the nitty gritty of LOB so one can avoid sulfur beer. I have my first helles about to go into lagering and I hope I got all of the sulfur out! :) I oxygenated for 2 min at 1/2 LPM before pitching.
 
Well, I'm always erring on the side of caution and also one step behind in adjusting everything else when I change something. I have been progressively reducing my sulfite dosage, but have yet to reduce oxygenation, which I originally chose as being sufficient to obliterate, as you say. I figured 2 minutes would probably kill the sulfite, and if another 2 minutes was more than needed for the yeast, well -- it's hard to over oxygenate in this range. (I'm running about 0.7 L/min, could probably back off a bit, but it's not violently breaking the surface.) The yeast will consume all you can give them, up to a point we're in no danger of reaching. So that's the crux of my approach. Hit it with a lot of O2 and let the sulfites and yeast divvy it up. O2 isn't cheap, but in the short term it's cheaper than a DO meter. I'll keep slowly adjusting things based on observed results.

My original approach was exactly your idea of blast it with trifecta and blast it with O2. But as I've tightened my system, effects on fermentation and sulfur showed I still wasn't oxygenating enough to expend the sulfites. This has led me to progressively realize we really don't need nearly as much as some brewers originally assumed. So it has been a process of reducing sulfites and increasing oxygen. When I think I've hit the minimum necessary sulfite level, I'll work on oxygen.
 
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I think we need a community DO meter! Since they are kind of expensive we could buy one and pass it around just to dial in our systems. After your system is dialed in the need goes way down imho.
 
Bassman2003 said:
I think we need a community DO meter! Since they are kind of expensive we could buy one and pass it around just to dial in our systems. After your system is dialed in the need goes way down imho.
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You know, though that is a completely impractical suggestion, it hits at the core of the problem. Once you have dialed in your system tolerances, you have no further need of a meter. That's why I'm so reluctant to buy one, and just try to use improving quality in my beer as an index.
 
You could get an AO sulfite testing kit instead! :D

It can actually help track oxygen exposure throughout the process unlike a DO meter.
 
RPh_Guy said:
You could get an AO sulfite testing kit instead! :D

It can actually help track oxygen exposure throughout the process unlike a DO meter.
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True. But it's still something to buy and eventually not need. So it's up to each how to dial things in.
 
I find the O2 meter not terribly useful for the mash as things happen faster then the hand held units can follow. IMO you need the kind that the Beerery uses for any utility. Where the handheld meters shine is checking the oxygen level before pitching and verifying your YOS progress. But as Robert has said, these things can be figured out empirically. Lack of an O2 meter should not be an impediment to diving in the LowOx world.
 
Robert65 said:
You know, though that is a completely impractical suggestion, it hits at the core of the problem. Once you have dialed in your system tolerances, you have no further need of a meter. That's why I'm so reluctant to buy one, and just try to use improving quality in my beer as an index.
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I will see how my year goes. I might buy one, dial in and put it up for sale here or on the LOB site.
 
While hot-side hand-helds are kind of pointless, EVERYONE should have one for oxygenation. They can be had for ~$100. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
RPh_Guy said:
You could get an AO sulfite testing kit instead! :D

It can actually help track oxygen exposure throughout the process unlike a DO meter.
Click to expand...
Care to recommend one, while we're on the subject of recommendations? The test strips linked in "Methods..." have been unavailable for as long as I've been aware, and I understand that they aren't ideal anyway.
 
Robert65 said:
Care to recommend one, while we're on the subject of recommendations? The test strips linked in "Methods..." have been unavailable for as long as I've been aware, and I understand that they aren't ideal anyway.
Click to expand...
See pm
 
Bassman2003 said:
Thanks. Hopefully we can get his feedback.
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Baseman2003,

What do you want to know?

Am I pleased with my $86 purchase? Yes, I can see DO changes to prove to myself about the benefits of YOS and Boil methods.

What do I use it for in my process? Checking HLT Do if I do YOS. Then checking my oxygenating process to exhaust sulfites after pitching my yeast.

How did I used it starting out? I tested stir plate water for high DO Concentration for 9.0ppm I tested YOS and boiling for at or near zero DO ppm.

How easy is it to use? Easy. I keep it wet all the time. I also preheat it 30 minutes before use to ready the meter. Basically turn it 30 minutes before use This meter charges with a micro USB. I like the 6 meter probe cable for submerged measurements.

What else?
 
Schlenkerla said:
Baseman2003,

What do you want to know?

Am I pleased with my $86 purchase? Yes, I can see DO changes to prove to myself about the benefits of YOS and Boil methods.

What do I use it for in my process? Checking HLT Do if I do YOS. Then checking my oxygenating process to exhaust sulfites after pitching my yeast.

How did I used it starting out? I tested stir plate water for high DO Concentration for 9.0ppm I tested YOS and boiling for at or near zero DO ppm.

How easy is it to use? Easy. I keep it wet all the time. I also preheat it 30 minutes before use to ready the meter. Basically turn it 30 minutes before use This meter charges with a micro USB. I like the 6 meter probe cable for submerged measurements.

What else?
Click to expand...
How are you sanitizing it?
What is needed to calibrate it?
 
Robert65 said:
Care to recommend one, while we're on the subject of recommendations? The test strips linked in "Methods..." have been unavailable for as long as I've been aware, and I understand that they aren't ideal anyway.
Click to expand...
I tried sulfite test strips. They hard for me to use due to color blindness. That's just me. Numerically speaking the resolution in my opinion is not good enough in my opinion. I have the Quantofix Brand, the values on the low side are; 0, 10, 25. I'm challenged to detect shades of white, to antique white, to pink.

I rather use a DO Meter to watch the sulfites make the DO crash during oxygenation. Once it starts to stabilize I stop my oxygenating.

Literally it seams to crash fast as I stir with the DO Meter Probe and the Oxygen Probe. Typically it's blast it with oxygen then kill it and watch it drop, stir and blast again, then repeat until be it stops crashing hard. I'll blast up to 6-8 ppms DO then watch it crash to less than 1.0ppm. Then 15-30 seconds later I hit it again. I will repeat this 3, 4 or 5 times. Then close up the fermentor when it slows in the crashing. It still drops but not rapidly. I believe this is due to pitching active yeast. I'll leave it at 4-6 ppms with a much slower drop.

Wrong or right that's what I'm doing on my beers after pitching a healthy starter. I do starters where non LODO brewers would scoff at the idea of making one.

This is my blow off, doing keg purging, 6 hours after oxygenation. My fermentor blasts out to the empty keg, then to the growler. When I do my closed transfer I swap the lines, fill and spund. By swapping; my fermentor blow off is to the keg vent (gas in). My fermentor drain is to keg black or the dispense fitting (beer out). Then to spund I take off the gas return to attach the spund (gas in).

 
Schlenkerla said:
I tried sulfite test strips. They hard for me to use due to color blindness. That's just me. Numerically speaking the resolution in my opinion is not good enough in my opinion. I have the Quantofix Brand, the values on the low side are; 0, 10, 25. I'm challenged to detect shades of white, to antique white, to pink.

I rather use a DO Meter to watch the sulfites make the DO crash during oxygenation. Once it starts to stabilize I stop my oxygenating.

Literally it seams to crash fast as I stir with the DO Meter Probe and the Oxygen Probe. Typically it's blast it with oxygen then kill it and watch it drop, stir and blast again, then repeat until be it stops crashing hard. I'll blast up to 6-8 ppms DO then watch it crash to less than 1.0ppm. Then 15-30 seconds later I hit it again. I will repeat this 3, 4 or 5 times. Then close up the fermentor when it slows in the crashing. It still drops but not rapidly. I believe this is due to pitching active yeast. I'll leave it at 4-6 ppms with a much slower drop.

Wrong or right that's what I'm doing on my beers after pitching a healthy starter. I do starters where non LODO brewers would scoff at the idea of making one.

This is my blow off, doing keg purging, 6 hours after oxygenation. My fermentor blasts out to the empty keg, then to the growler. When I do my closed transfer I swap the lines, fill and spund. By swapping; my fermentor blow off is to the keg vent (gas in). My fermentor drain is to keg black or the dispense fitting (beer out). Then to spund I take off the gas return to attach the spund (gas in).

Click to expand...
Having read your posts on your procedure here and on LOB before, that's exactly the direction I'm leaning. Prioritize the DO meter, and for now err on the side of excess in sulfite dosage and ensure that the DO is sufficient at pitching. Maybe later use sulfite testing to optimize sulfite dosage, or maybe it can be done simply by watching how long it takes to oxygenate sufficiently.
 
You should change your membrane caps every 6 months or so but it looks like they send some extras. You can make your own zero solution for calibrating and that's about all there is to it.
 
Robert65 said:
I see this is meter only (and 10 bucks more right now, but that doesn't bother me a bit.) So, what reagents and other accessories are required? Links?
Click to expand...
I thought about this for awhile... Especially when I got the meter. This meter comes calibrated out of the box with a certificate. The online info I read about DO measurement mentioned the need for calibration based on the value needed to "Report" vs needing to show DO ppm delta. Thinking certified values verses process monitoring.

In this online calibration document about DO, I read that calibration is not necessarily required. So I kind of questioned that.

The meter instructions said to aerate for the peak using the appendix values and use hydrogen peroxide with a A & B reagent for the minimum. Aeration Saturated Peak at 70F (21C) is supposedly at 8.90 ppm per the instructions appendix.

I put the probe in a stir plate for 2 hours and it resulted in DO values well over 9ppm closer to 12ppm. No surprise, the online document said the boil is supposed to result in zero. I replicated zero point at a very low value after boil. At right about 0.4 ppm which is the resolution value. This matches the targets for both extremes. I didn't calibrate after these readings. Thought it's good enough.

That said, I decided to look at the drops more than anything else. I also keep the probe wet 24/7 with fresh water every week.

Attached is the cert document.
IMG_20200224_204004.jpeg
 
ba-brewer said:
How are you sanitizing it?
What is needed to calibrate it?
Click to expand...
Simple. I drop it in santizer during the chilling.

Calibration is kinda like a thermometer; Boil vs Ice Bath. DO; Aerated water saturation vs boiling & chilled.

See the posts above for calibration.

Truth be told it's more a curve or slope alignment/validation over calibration.

FWIW - I used to calibrate x-ray florescent machines for testing percentages of manganese, iodine, and chromium in industrial-chemistry process controls. These were more than two extreme data points. Typically 8 to 10 samples from 0 to Max to create a complete curve. Adjusting for non-linearity or logarithmic curves.
 
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Recapping;

The upper end of the curve is set or validated by the known and published dissolved oxygen saturation limit of distilled water at a given temperature. The lower end is either by a known sample (boiled and chilled) vs a hydrogen peroxide zeroing reagent.

The zero point is corroborated by what you know with YOS and boiling.

At the end of the day you know your in good shape if you detect 4~5 ppm of DO from a faucet. Then see 0.0-0.4ppm at a known likely zero point.

So I'm thinking Horseshoes & Hand Grenades here. It's better than being blind on your amount of sulfites and DO after you pitch your yeast.
 
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Bassman2003 said:
Thanks for all of your info! Sounds like the probe is a great first step to DO measurement.
Click to expand...
Yes. Without a doubt. Some of us will never be at Bryan's Level with inline DO Measurement, and the use nitrogen purging or it's out of arms reach for the foreseeable future. There's a great satisfaction to be able to measure DO in your process and see the cause and effect with your beer quality.
 
Thanks @Schlenkerla

I seen a note on amazon "The A type B type reagent and electrolyte dissolved oxygen filling solution is NOT included! Customers can buy the reagent and electrolyte dissolved oxygen filling solution by themselves. " , quick amazon search showed nothing.

The instruction you posted looks like your meter came with those items.

Kind of seems like you are saying that check against typical low and high DO saturation conditions is good enough.
 
ba-brewer said:
Thanks @Schlenkerla

I seen a note on amazon "The A type B type reagent and electrolyte dissolved oxygen filling solution is NOT included! Customers can buy the reagent and electrolyte dissolved oxygen filling solution by themselves. " , quick amazon search showed nothing.

The instruction you posted looks like your meter came with those items.

Kind of seems like you are saying that check against typical low and high DO saturation conditions is good enough.
Click to expand...

My meter came with the electrolyte solution and the 3 spare covers. I got shorted on reagent that you saw on the instructions. I'm more pleased that I got covers. Knowing what I know now if I was to be shorted I'd want it be be on the reagents.

Your final statement is correct. Check the known extremes and watch the drop as you would expect.

Another thought..... with Long term measurement longer than a few minutes (thinking testing) you'll learn that some movement is necessary as the localized DO will drop at probe contact point. Yanking a little on the cable like you would tease a fish with worm on a bobber is enough to change the fluid at the probe membrane. If you don't fish it's means just pulling the cable an inch back and forth occasionally at most to create movement at the probe surface. It's not a problem at all. It's good to know.

Technically, I think the membrane allows one way DO passage through the electrolyte to the electrode. Like that of a reverse osmosis filter. That inner space can artificially drop due to membrane not having any shear at the outer surface as the electrolyte eases internal DO migration to the electrode.

Cheers for Low Oxygen Beers! [emoji482]
 
I picked up a used DO meter (Extech 600) and tried to use it this last weekend but even in a “known zero” solution (my YOS solution) I couldn’t get it to read much below 1.0 ppm. Occasional excursions as low as 0.7 ppm but unstable.
I know the meter hasn’t been used for at least 6 mo, more like a year probably. Now I am thinking it needs a new membrane cap?
Any other thoughts on why it won’t read “correctly”?
 
Also worth noting for you guys doing YOS:
Table sugar (sucrose) also works as well as dextrose or DME and you probably have a bunch in hand all the time (plus it’s generally cheaper if you are using a lot of it).
 
Maintenance is my only hesitation with buying brewing instruments. I know my schedule and my personality. Things that need repetitive maintenance often struggle in my house! :) Except my oil changes. This is where the pro/hobby line comes up imho.
 
Schlenkerla said:
At the end of the day you know your in good shape if you detect 8~9ppm of DO from a faucet.
Click to expand...
I'd be suspect of that, I have never seen that.. its more like 4-5 for me, water will only absorb maximum solubility if all conditions (time, temp flow, etc) are correct.
 
Die_Beerery said:
I'd be suspect of that, I have never seen that.. its more like 4-5 for me, water will only absorb maximum solubility if all conditions (time, temp flow, etc) are correct.
Click to expand...
My mistake. You're correct. (Fixed my post)

I'm was confusing saturation vs what would be normal tap water values.

Supposedly at 21C the saturation limit is 8.9 per my meter Instructions posted above. Doing so with a stir plate or an aquarium bubbling stone.

This also depends on altitude and barometric pressure. I think the altitude is an initial calibration set point.

I guess my point is recognizing the higher DO and detecting the change in points. Setting the max and min your environment. I'm more concerned about the zero point accuracy vs the saturation. I liked seeing both close to what is expected.
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
I picked up a used DO meter (Extech 600) and tried to use it this last weekend but even in a “known zero” solution (my YOS solution) I couldn’t get it to read much below 1.0 ppm. Occasional excursions as low as 0.7 ppm but unstable.
I know the meter hasn’t been used for at least 6 mo, more like a year probably. Now I am thinking it needs a new membrane cap?
Any other thoughts on why it won’t read “correctly”?
Click to expand...

Every time mine goes squirrelly it’s the membrane cap or bubbles under it. That or I didn't let it polarize long enough or calibrate it correctly. The manual isn’t exactly well written.
 
Bilsch said:
Every time mine goes squirrelly it’s the membrane cap or bubbles under it. That or I didn't let it polarize long enough or calibrate it correctly. The manual isn’t exactly well written.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
No, the manual is terrible. Bryan helped with some advice in my other post.
I've got a set of membrane caps on the way.
 
Schlenkerla said:
My mistake. You're correct. (Fixed my post)

I'm was confusing saturation vs what would be normal tap water values.

Supposedly at 21C the saturation limit is 8.9 per my meter Instructions posted above. Doing so with a stir plate or an aquarium bubbling stone.

This also depends on altitude and barometric pressure. I think the altitude is an initial calibration set point.

I guess my point is recognizing the higher DO and detecting the change in points. Setting the max and min your environment. I'm more concerned about the zero point accuracy vs the saturation. I liked seeing both close to what is expected.
Click to expand...

Bear with me while I ask a highly heretical question that goes against the grain of our deeply held orthodoxy of brewing. Please don't dismiss or disparage just because "that's not the way it's done, so shut up and fall in line." It's a serious question that I can't answer, so please indulge me with a reasonable answer:

Why do we even bother to oxygenate the wort?

After all, we take great steps to eliminate DO in the strike water, mash, sparge, boil, chill and transfer of wort into the fermenter. So why, then, do we dump a crap-ton load of O2 into the wort when we pitch the yeast? It's the yeast that needs the O2. So doesn't it make more sense to saturate the starter with O2, and wait till high krausen when nearly all of that O2 has been metabolized and the highly active yeast colony is starving for the abundant sugars in the fresh wort?

The yeast don't need oxygen to either ferment the wort or propagate their colony. They do need O2 to kickstart their metabolism out of its dormant state however, which is what we do when we create a starter. I get it that any O2 in the wort will be consumed within 30 minutes to an hour of pitching, but there are those here who are obsessing over a bottle-capful of air getting into a fermenter for a few seconds and 'destroying' the beer. I'm not disputing that fact, but rather trying to resolve the apparent ambiguity.

If DO is 'bad' and eliminating it is 'good' (with which I totally agree), but O2 is necessary in the initial propagation of yeast but not required in the fermentation of the wort, then why do we oxygenate the wort? I'm not advocating a radical departure from conventional wisdom or questioning new LoDO methodologies. I know there must be a simple and obvious reason that I'm overlooking. If so, please point it out in a legitimate and reasonable way, in the same manner in which the question is asked.

Brooo Brother
 

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