Need help starting LoDo

[Vale71]

You're not entirely correct there. Yeast do need O2 in order to propagate as oxygen is required for sterol synthesis which is a fundamental component of cell mebranes. Yeast does not need O2 to kickstart fermentation. What kickstarts fermentation are the simple sugars (meaning glucose, fructose and saccharose) that are present in malt as a leftover of the malting process.

In conventional fermentations yeast will propagate by a factor of 4 up to 5 times the initial pitch rate. Oxygen is required for that as yeast will need sterols to bud repeatedly while producing healthy daughter cells.

It is possible and there is research being done into oxygen-free pitching but the only practical way to achieve this seems to be to pitch so much healthy, vital yeast that propagation after pitching is no longer necessary for a rapid, trouble-free fermentation. Pressure fermentation will also be needed to fully suppress yeast propagation after pitching. This will however impact the fermentation profile in very complicated ways so in reality this is not as trivial as it might sound.

 

[Die_Beerery]

You don't need to oxygenate wort if you are using a: dry yeast, or b: using assimilated yeast. However, dry lager yeast sucks balls, and most people don't have the setup for assimilating yeast. So you are left with oxygenating wort.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Well, I can't speak to the O2 needs of the yeast as well as others can (and I am mildly curious to the answer as well), but I suspect since we pitch a much larger amount of yeast that is conventional, I suspect that the oxygen in an oxygenated starter may not be enough to give all that yeast a good start to their growth cycle. Also, oxygenation serves to deplete residual sulfites, which can stunt yeast propagation and slow down fermentation.

 

[Brooothru]

You're not entirely correct there. Yeast do need O2 in order to propagate as oxygen is required for sterol synthesis which is a fundamental component of cell mebranes. Yeast does not need O2 to kickstart fermentation. What kickstarts fermentation are the simple sugars (meaning glucose, fructose and saccharose) that are present in malt as a leftover of the malting process.

In conventional fermentations yeast will propagate by a factor of 4 up to 5 times the initial pitch rate. Oxygen is required for that as yeast will need sterols to bud repeatedly while producing healthy daughter cells.

It is possible and there is research being done into oxygen-free pitching but the only practical way to achieve this seems to be to pitch so much healthy, vital yeast that propagation after pitching is no longer necessary for a rapid, trouble-free fermentation. Pressure fermentation will also be needed to fully suppress yeast propagation after pitching. This will however impact the fermentation profile in very complicated ways so in reality this is not as trivial as it might sound.

O.K., now that is starting to make sense to me. As @Die_Beerery points out, dry yeast (which do "suck balls") bring those sterols and glycogens into the mix by themselves, whereas we need to provide the oxygen with liquid pitches for the yeast to bud and propagate. The work-around (though not practical) would be to compensate for the lack of propagation by pitching 4 to 5 times more viable yeast cells (1 trillion?) into the fresh wort. That all seems perfectly logical. And a shoutout to @Cavpilot2000 for reminding me about O2 and sulfite reduction, which I'd failed to consider.

What I'm still trying to get my non-microbiologist brain around is where the yeast are getting the requisite O2 for propagation in the first 12 to 24 hours post-pitch if the O2 we inject into the wort is consumed within the first 30-60 minutes by the yeast. Do they absorb it within that brief time frame and then use it (stored) during the adaptive phase to propagate as opposed to simply consuming it as they go along propagating and replicating during fermentation? That must be the case since there's no O2 after the first hour of the adaptive phase, and answers my question. Either that or fermentation must be an anaerobic process, which it clearly is not if we have to oxygenate to have a healthy ferment.

I'm starting to get clearer focus on the subject matter but will have to do more reading to fully grasp it. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Brooo Brother

 

[Cavpilot2000]

All you never wanted to know about yeast and more!

 

[ba-brewer]

You should change your membrane caps every 6 months or so but it looks like they send some extras. You can make your own zero solution for calibrating and that's about all there is to it.

How do you make your own zero solution?

Questions to anyone;
The latest offering of the meter on Amazon does not come with electrolyte solution, can you use another vendors electrolyte solution?

Where to get replacement membranes for smart sensor DO meter?

 

[Bilsch]

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/29548476/2-point-do-calibration-using-yeast-waterra-in-situ

 

[Cavpilot2000]

How do you make your own zero solution?

Yeast scavenge (2 grams/gal each of sugar and bread yeast and give it an hour at room temp, 30 min if warmer).

- or -

Boil, add sulfite, and cool to room temp for calibration.

Basically do exactly what you would do to deoxygenate strike water.

 

[ba-brewer]

I like the yeast scavenging approach but using the same methods to calibrate as you are going to try to quantify seems weird.

 

[h22lude]

Jeez, is that an ale or lager?

I'm actually thinking about getting Roeam DO meter now from this thread. $100 for the extension probe and 3 caps is a good deal...as long as the meter itself works well, which it sounds like it does.

Since you are having to remove some sulfites, have you thought about dropping your NaMeta addition?

 

[h22lude]

Yeast scavenge (2 grams/gal each of sugar and bread yeast and give it an hour at room temp, 30 min if warmer).

Didn't 1g/gal work just as well? Or am I not remembering correctly?

 

[Robert65]

Didn't 1g/gal work just as well? Or am I not remembering correctly?

IIRC 2g is still the best bet, margin of safety dose, and absolutely necessary at lower temperatures (wasn't the test with 1g showing good results at a temperature nearly high enough to risk killing the yeast?) Since it doesn't affect flavor or clarity, I'm sticking with 2. Going to have to reread the blog to be sure.

 

[h22lude]

IIRC 2g is still the best bet, margin of safety dose, and absolutely necessary at lower temperatures (wasn't the test with 1g showing good results at a temperature nearly high enough to risk killing the yeast?) Since it doesn't affect flavor or clarity, I'm sticking with 2. Going to have to reread the blog to be sure.

2g/gal at room temp and 1g/gal at 100°F both dropped to 0ppm by 20 minutes. So you are right, if you don't heat, go with 2g/gal.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Right. And 1g/gal at room temp will work too, but it takes longer.
I’m in the “just to be sure” camp, so I’ve started using 2/2. I may drop it at some point, but it’s still a small amount of an inexpensive resource (I’m using table sugar), so I like the extra peace of mind.

 

[Bilsch]

It’s great to have an idea what the limits are to make a more informed choice. Many thanks to The Beerery for testing it repeatedly and giving us the data.

 

[Brooothru]

IIRC 2g is still the best bet, margin of safety dose, and absolutely necessary at lower temperatures (wasn't the test with 1g showing good results at a temperature nearly high enough to risk killing the yeast?) Since it doesn't affect flavor or clarity, I'm sticking with 2. Going to have to reread the blog to be sure.

My experience was a slightly milky appearance rather than clarity in the strike water. That said, there has been no adverse effect on mash efficiency or taste of the finished beer.

I have had a small coating of creamy white residue on the elements of my electric brew kettle. They aren't scorched or burnt on, and in fact wipe right off with a sponge with no scrubbing. Only done YOS twice so far (previously boiled and chilled for D.O.) but am quite pleased with the results. 2 grams/gal dosing rate.

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

My experience was a slightly milky appearance rather than clarity in the strike water. That said, there has been no adverse effect on mash efficiency or taste of the finished beer.


Brooo Brother

Right. I meant no effect on the clarity or flavor of the wort and beer, not the strike water. Some people have worried about that.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

It’s great to have an idea what the limits are to make a more informed choice. Many thanks to The Beerery for testing it repeatedly and giving us the data.

Absolutely!
We'd all still be stumbling around in the dark guessing without his experiments and dedication to actual brewing science.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Jeez, is that an ale or lager?

I'm actually thinking about getting Roeam DO meter now from this thread. $100 for the extension probe and 3 caps is a good deal...as long as the meter itself works well, which it sounds like it does.

Since you are having to remove some sulfites, have you thought about dropping your NaMeta addition?

It's an ale. 1.050 gravity.

Yeah I've thought about dropping but I need to check the mash at mash out to see the DO value to warrant backing off on the trifecta. I've been good with 20-25ppm and think at that amount its not a lot and I'm blasting it away with with oxygen.

I stopped tinkering as of lately as I'm trying to be more consistent batch to batch. Also doing the same four different beers styles. Mainly to learn by repetition. I'm only making pale ales, rauchbier, Belgian amber and stouts. Using the same recipes.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I'm with you - I'm good with 20-25 ppm just to be sure, and clearing it up with oxygen. Maybe some day I'll worry about getting that number lower, but this way I cover myself when I have a brain fart or a small leak or something else. I like a little margin for error.
Now I have an O2 meter (that I need to calibrate - new membrane caps just came in), I can verify when the sulfites are gone at pitching.

 

[Schlenkerla]

@h22lude - That 1.050 ale ferments in a 1-1.5 days, then I'm spunding for another 2-3 days.

If you like hefeweizen this fast fermenting is the go-to thing when your beer pipeline dries up. You can be drinking a new beer in about 2 weeks.

 

[h22lude]

@h22lude - That 1.050 ale ferments in a 1-1.5 days, then I'm spunding for another 2-3 days.

If you like hefeweizen this fast fermenting is the go-to thing when your beer pipeline dries up. You can be drinking a new beer in about 2 weeks.

Most of my ales are right around the same schedule but I've never seen them go that crazy. Though most ales I just use us-05 and I don't aerate, which may be an issue. Even though fermentis says their yeast don't need added oxygen, not using oxygen for us means sulfites are still in the beer. I'd assume they would hurt the yeast just like they do for liquid yeast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'd assume they would hurt the yeast just like they do for liquid yeast.

Does sulfite directly inhibit the yeast in some way? I don't think so.
I think it's more likely an effect of the lack of oxygen.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Does sulfite directly inhibit the yeast in some way? I don't think so.
I think it's more likely an effect of the lack of oxygen.

Sulfites in wine and cider-making are standard fare for inhibiting the growth of wild yeast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sulfites in wine and cider-making are standard fare for inhibiting the growth of wild yeast.

Anti-microbial activity comes from the molecular SO2 form of sulfite. The pH of beer is too high and the amount we're using is too low for there to be any inhibition. Sacc generally starts to be inhibited around 0.8ppm molecular SO2. So, if you hit your post-boil pH of 5.1, you'd need 1561ppm free SO2 = 2316ppm Na-meta.

Here's an article I wrote that explains sulfite in more detail (not completely finished yet):
https://***************.com/wiki/Sulfite

 

[Robert65]

@RPh_Guy, your wiki is finally up and running? Sweet! Good work.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Most of my ales are right around the same schedule but I've never seen them go that crazy. Though most ales I just use us-05 and I don't aerate, which may be an issue. Even though fermentis says their yeast don't need added oxygen, not using oxygen for us means sulfites are still in the beer. I'd assume they would hurt the yeast just like they do for liquid yeast.

I read somewhere that sulfites don't hurt yeast per say. Whether that's true or not I don't know. The sulfites can compete with the yeast for oxygen. If it's a more aggressive oxygen scavanger than the yeast, it would make sense that growth phase could be stunted or delayed. I assume that to be the case. Metabisulfites can be used as a bactericide

There's a few yeast experts here that might be able to explain this. @Vale71. I'm sure he knows.

Does sulfite directly inhibit the yeast in some way? I don't think so.
I think it's more likely an effect of the lack of oxygen.

I think it does. (Based on the lack of oxygen.) It's just speculation on my part. When I didn't aerate after using metabisulfites S-05 and then an extra pitch if S-33 and would not take off. Fermentation seemed non existant or extremely slow. It was to the point that I checked all my seals on the fermentor thinking it was going but not venting out the air lock. Eventually I saw air lock activity but it was very slow. It took over a week to ferment. I closed it up for the weekend, left town frustrated. It was fermenting very slowly. When I got back it seemed done.

Since that experience happening back to back on two batches with dry yeast I don't fool around now. I make starters and measure/monitor my oxygenating process

I can 1-pint starters and use them to step up a hydrated dry yeast. I'll warm up the canned starter jar overnight. In the morning I'll rehydrate the dry yeast when I get up. I'll get ready for work. Right before I head out I pitch the hydrated yeast into the flask that's on a stir plate. There it sits whirling all day and part of the evening. I've even done this for a whole weekend once.

This is what I think my parameters would be based on this. This is a braukaiser growth model.

... And yeah I'm overpitching.

Totals
======
Amount of yeast I need: 174.0 Billion Cells
Amount of yeast I have: 190.3 Billion Cells
The yeast I have covers 109.36 % of the amount I need.

Fermenting Wort
===============
Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Volume: 22.00 L

Initial Yeast
=============
Yeast Type: Ale
Yeast Source: Dry Yeast Package
Amount: 11.5 gr
Elaboration Date: 2019-08-28
Estimated Density: 20.00 Billion Cells/gr
Estimated Viability: 75.42%
Available Yeast: 173.5 Billion Cells

Required Pitch Size
===================
Pitch Rate: 0.64 million cells / ml / °Plato
Amount of yeast I need: 174.0 Billion Cells

Yeast Propagation
=================
Step 1: Magnetic Stirrer - 500.00 ml 1.040 --> 190.3 Billion Cells (Infinity%)

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.brewzor.calculator

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ar.com.integrarsoluciones.ads.startercalc

 

[Schlenkerla]

Anti-microbial activity comes from the molecular SO2 form of sulfite. The pH of beer is too high and the amount we're using is too low for there to be any inhibition. Sacc generally starts to be inhibited around 0.8ppm molecular SO2. So, if you hit your post-boil pH of 5.1, you'd need 1561ppm free SO2 = 2316ppm Na-meta.

Here's an article I wrote that explains sulfite in more detail (not completely finished yet):
https://***************.com/wiki/Sulfite

I didn't see this before I posted.... Took me forever to make that post. Several of you made posts after I started mine.

 

[Robert65]

And a thought, someone may have said this and I missed it, regarding sulfites, O2, and dry yeast. Just because dry yeast doesn't need O2, that doesn't mean it can't use it. So oxygenation to expend sulfites and oxygenate wort isn't necessarily pointless with dry yeast, even if the sulfite itself is harmless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@RPh_Guy, your wiki is finally up and running? Sweet! Good work.

Thanks! The site is fully functional and now open to everyone for editing, so anyone that wants to contribute can jump right in there.

I'm working on the H2S article right now. I wanted to first tackle the topics that generate the most confusion.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Anti-microbial activity comes from the molecular SO2 form of sulfite. The pH of beer is too high and the amount we're using is too low for there to be any inhibition. Sacc generally starts to be inhibited around 0.8ppm molecular SO2. So, if you hit your post-boil pH of 5.1, you'd need 1561ppm free SO2 = 2316ppm Na-meta.

Here's an article I wrote that explains sulfite in more detail (not completely finished yet):
https://***************.com/wiki/Sulfite

I like it! Thanks for the info!

 

[Bassman2003]

Nevermind. For some reason I replied to an earlier post!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Did a little reading on DIY calibration standards.

DO zero solution is 1 gram sodium metabisulfite and 100ml distilled water. Use after 15 minutes but do not stir to dissolve. Store in a closed container for no longer than 96 hours.

Max DO saturation is done by ~ 30 minutes aquarium aerated distilled water. I believe a high speed setting on stir plate will get you the same result.

See chart below. For example: At 21C with zero salinity water the saturation limit is 8.914 ppm.

https://www.hamiltoncompany.com/pro.../best-practices-zero-point-oxygen-calibration

https://www.fondriest.com/environmental-measurements/parameters/water-quality/dissolved-oxygen/

 

[Schlenkerla]

And a thought, someone may have said this and I missed it, regarding sulfites, O2, and dry yeast. Just because dry yeast doesn't need O2, that doesn't mean it can't use it. So oxygenation to expend sulfites and oxygenate wort isn't necessarily pointless with dry yeast, even if the sulfite itself is harmless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think your assessment is correct. Yeah, do oxygenation to expend the sulfites.

 

[Schlenkerla]

You guys might find this ironic, if not ironically funny. Using yeast and sugar to create a zero DO solution for calibration - LoL

https://in-situ.com/us/support/categories/documentation

Use this site and search "yeast" and download the file.

If anything else, it should give you high confidence in YOS for your strike water and the use of your meter if it all checks out.

 

[ba-brewer]

Could not find the document with their search function, but I think that was linked earlier.

The earlier doc calls for 1packet of yeast in a cup of water. Assuming the packet is the 7gm envelopes from the grocery store, seems like a bit over kill but in the spirit of the document would be easier for taking to the field. Guessing that is to get a quick zero solution so it can be used in 15min.


How about the other extreme, I seen mention of something call a 100% saturated air calibration. Seem like you are suppose put the probe in a closed container that was shake and allowed to stabilize. Is that approach better than using a stirplate to saturate water?

 

[Schlenkerla]

This is the name of the file...”RDO Sensor: Two-Point Dissolved Oxygen Calibration Using Yeast Tech Note".

I just searched yeast and found it again.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N9MbW3fUH2a54vwX_QJ9ryVOMhk3IyrT/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[Schlenkerla]

Could not find the document with their search function, but I think that was linked earlier.

The earlier doc calls for 1packet of yeast in a cup of water. Assuming the packet is the 7gm envelopes from the grocery store, seems like a bit over kill but in the spirit of the document would be easier for taking to the field. Guessing that is to get a quick zero solution so it can be used in 15min.


How about the other extreme, I seen mention of something call a 100% saturated air calibration. Seem like you are suppose put the probe in a closed container that was shake and allowed to stabilize. Is that approach better than using a stirplate to saturate water?

Using an aeration stone is supposedly better than mixing mechanically. It's no different than wort aeration; mechanical mixing, aeration or oxygen. Obviously oxygen being the best, mechanical being the worst. I think my meter instructions or somewhere else I read said you can use a stir plate but you have to let it run for awhile. Seem to recall 30 minutes.

 

[ba-brewer]

Using an aeration stone is supposedly better than mixing mechanically. It's no different than wort aeration; mechanical mixing, aeration or oxygen. Obviously oxygen being the best, mechanical being the worst. I think my meter instructions or somewhere else I read said you can use a stir plate but you have to let it run for awhile. Seem to recall 30 minutes.

I think the smart sensor manual you posted says to do a saturated liquid calibration. I looked at manual for the Milwaukee instruments MW600 and I think it calls out an calibration in 100% saturated air. It was not too clear in how to do that, I was thinking your had to put the meter over a pot of hot water or something but then found something that said you put the probe in a close container with water for a period of time. Both documents leave a little to be desired but reading both was helpful.

With the liquid approach you could put some water on the stirplate at the same time you turn on the meter to warm up so that seems faster and maybe more predictable.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I think the smart sensor manual you posted says to do a saturated liquid calibration. I looked at manual for the Milwaukee instruments MW600 and I think it calls out an calibration in 100% saturated air. It was not too clear in how to do that, I was thinking your had to put the meter over a pot of hot water or something but then found something that said you put the probe in a close container with water for a period of time. Both documents leave a little to be desired but reading both was helpful.

With the liquid approach you could put some water on the stirplate at the same time you turn on the meter to warm up so that seems faster and maybe more predictable.

Right. Using the table to set the saturation limit based on a known standard. As mentioned earlier like 21C is 8.914 ppm. The table spells that out.

I think any calibration should be 2-Point: zero & saturation.