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Big THANKS to everyone that helped!

My first two low oxygen brews were an overwhelming success. The second one, a gose-inspired sour, was particularly good -- one of the best beers I've ever tasted. The malt flavor was amazing, and it lasted 5 weeks in bottles at room temperature before deteriorating.

For the Gose I heated the strike water to around 100°F to do the YOS. I think that might have helped vs the first brew with the water around 65°F (Purely anecdotal; I don't have a DO meter, so I'm judging based on the resulting beer.)

Cheers!
 
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One thing I noticed though is that this process is very hard on my 201 stainless kettle.

Besides being more difficult to clean, I noticed that the Brewtan B or ascorbic acid left dark marks where it landed when I dumped it into the strike water. Did it strip the passivation? Neither PBW nor diluted citric acid removed it, but BKF (oxalic acid) made it shiny again though you can still see where it was.

Here's how it first looked:
IMG_20190504_195252.jpg
 
RPh_Guy said:
One thing I noticed though is that this process is very hard on my 201 stainless kettle.

Besides being more difficult to clean, I noticed that the Brewtan B or ascorbic acid left dark marks where it landed when I dumped it into the strike water. Did it strip the passivation? Neither PBW nor diluted citric acid removed it, but BKF (oxalic acid) made it shiny again though you can still see where it was.

Here's how it first looked:
Click to expand...

Wow.. I've never seen that kind of damage from any of the scavengers or salts. What brand of kettle is that? Id try citric passivating it to see how much iron strips off the surface. I'm guessing your going to get quite a strong yellow orange color in the citric solution which would make me wary of using it lodo.
 
Bilsch said:
Wow.. I've never seen that kind of damage from any of the scavengers or salts. What brand of kettle is that? Id try citric passivating it to see how much iron strips off the surface. I'm guessing your going to get quite a strong yellow orange color in the citric solution which would make me wary of using it lodo.
Click to expand...
I occasionally use a hot citric acid circulation after a PBW clean. I haven't noticed any coloration of the solution, but I'll pay more attention next time.
As I mentioned, citric acid didn't fix the discoloration. Would it not have fixed a passivation problem? Puzzling.
I used about a tablespoonful citric acid powder in a gallon of tap water.

Pretty sure it's this kettle:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/85-gallon-brewmaster-stainless-steel-brew-kettle.html
201 stainless. It's fine with a "normal" brew process.
I'll dissolve the Brewtan B and ascorbic acid in some water next time before adding to the kettle.

My beer turned out amazing. Hopefully it's not toxic with heavy metals.
 
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Bilsch said:
Wow.. I've never seen that kind of damage from any of the scavengers or salts. What brand of kettle is that? Id try citric passivating it to see how much iron strips off the surface. I'm guessing your going to get quite a strong yellow orange color in the citric solution which would make me wary of using it lodo.
Click to expand...
Is it a Brewing grade? How strong, or what concentration?

Lime and lemon while acidic aren't they mostly water? I'm assuming Asorbic Acid is what's in citrus
 
RPh_Guy said:
I occasionally use a hot citric acid circulation after a PBW clean. I haven't noticed any coloration of the solution, but I'll pay more attention next time.
As I mentioned, citric acid didn't fix the discoloration. Would it not have fixed a passivation problem? Puzzling.
I used about a tablespoonful citric acid powder in a gallon of tap water.

Pretty sure it's this kettle:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/85-gallon-brewmaster-stainless-steel-brew-kettle.html
201 stainless. It's fine with a "normal" brew process.
I'll dissolve the Brewtan B and ascorbic acid in some water next time before adding to the kettle.

My beer turned out amazing. Hopefully it's not toxic with heavy metals.
Click to expand...

What I'm thinking is there isn't enough chromium in your stainless which is allowing attack by the ascorbic. I've got one of those same kettles, well one generation older with the weaker handles, which used to be my HLT but never saw any stains like that and I beat it.

For proper citric passivation you need at least a 4% solution at about 160-180f for an hour or more.
 
Type 201 Stainless Steel is an austenitic chromium-nickel-manganese stainless steel which was developed to conserve nickel. Type 201 is a lower cost alternative to conventional Cr-Ni stainless steels such as 301 and 304. Nickel is replaced by additions of manganese and nitrogen. It is non-hardenable by thermal treatment, but may be cold worked to high tensile strengths. Type 201 is essentially nonmagnetic in the annealed condition and becomes magnetic when cold worked. Type 201 can be substituted for Type 301 in many applications.
 
brewbama said:
Type 201 Stainless Steel is an austenitic chromium-nickel-manganese stainless steel which was developed to conserve nickel. Type 201 is a lower cost alternative to conventional Cr-Ni stainless steels such as 301 and 304. Nickel is replaced by additions of manganese and nitrogen. It is non-hardenable by thermal treatment, but may be cold worked to high tensile strengths. Type 201 is essentially nonmagnetic in the annealed condition and becomes magnetic when cold worked. Type 201 can be substituted for Type 301 in many applications.
Click to expand...
What are you some kind of Metallurgist...or did you sleep at Holiday Inn last night? LoL
[emoji1]
 
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He copy-pasted that from somewhere.

@Bilsch Thanks, I'll give that a try. Suppose the passivation solution turns yellow, would that be enough of a problem that I shouldn't use the kettle?
 
RPh_Guy said:
He copy-pasted that from somewhere.

@Bilsch Thanks, I'll give that a try. Suppose the passivation solution turns yellow, would that be enough of a problem that I shouldn't use the kettle?
Click to expand...

To be honest, I can't say for sure what you should do. However the thought that iron is coming from the equipment and possibly going into the beer is worrisome especially for lodo brewers. Coors was concerned about this same thing and that's coincidentally where the citric passivation idea came from.

I have noticed that some stainless pieces, usually cheap plumbing parts and fittings, when passivated turn the solution very yellow and others, like my Spike kettles, didn't change the color much at all. Knowing that iron citrate in water is yellow orange we can assume the color, or lack thereof, of your passivation solution is a crude indication of how much iron was stripped off the stainless surface. My theory in the case of cheaply made stainless is there probably isn't a high enough percentage of chromium in the alloy to enrich the surface sufficiently to seal off the Fe. But take all that with a grain of salt since I'm not a metallurgist either.

P.S. Manganese is also something you wan't to avoid in your LODo brew. :(
https://escholarship.org/content/qt1b6943fv/qt1b6943fv.pdf
 
The brewing aspect seems to be fine, based on my beer. Brewtan B is taking care of the copper chiller and whatever metals may be coming from the kettle.

I'm more concerned with health risk or if the kettle is going to significantly corrode with repeated low-oxygen brews. Doesn't sound like either one will be a problem.
I'll passivate like you said and dissolve the BtB+AA before adding next time.

I appreciate the thoughts. Cheers.
 
I am about to do my first LODO brew. I have a question on using Brewtan B.
My plan is to boil my strike water for 5 minutes. Add Brewtan B at beginning of the 5 minute boil.
I then will cool to my strike water temp with a copper immersion chiller. Once I get to my strike temp I will add all necessary mash water salt additions. I will then underlet my strike water into my mash.
After the mash, and then the last five minutes of the boil, do I then add Brewtan B again, because I will be using the copper chiller to cool the wort to my yeast pitch temperature? Or is the one addition good for the entire process?
Also wondering how everyone is cooling their mash and sparge water after the 5 minute preboil?
Are brewers using copper coils to cool their preboild water?
At the moment I do not have a stainless chiller.
 
I'm using the Yeast Oxygen Scavenging (YOS) method, so no pre-boil.

With a copper chiller you do need the second dose of Brewtan B.

Cheers
 
So when using the Yeast Oxygen Scavenging method, do you just add the bread yeast and dextrose to some water in a jar and mix, then add to the mash and strike water? Or do you just at them separately to your mash and strike water and stir gently?
If I understand correctly, you need to do this 3 hours before dough in?
Is there a certain temperature range the water should remain for the 3 hours?
If I do not have dextrose, could I substitute dry malt extract DME?
 
Add dextrose, or DME, and yeast directly to the water to be deoxygenated and stir gently. Cap if you have a mash cap. It might be ideal to have the water around 90-100°F initially, but it can be done at room temperature, and it isn't necessary to HD the temperature. And you can do it as little as 30 minutes before you start to heat the water to strike temperature, it has been shown that yeast consumes all the oxygen that quickly.
 
Thanks for the quick response and great information.
One more question.
When they say Prepare a solution of dextrose and a dry bread yeast at a rate of twice your batch volume in grams (i.e. 5 * 2 = 10 grams each of dry bread yeast and dextrose) Is the batch volume the volume of water I have for my mash and sparge, or is it my final volume expected in the fermenter?
Also, I am assuming I treat both the mash water and then my sparge water. I have a herms system and I fly sparge. I will be keeping the sparge arm under the mash liquid this time.
 
It's the volume being treated. I also sparge. So let's say (random example) I have 4 gallons strike in my mash tun and 5 gallons in the HLT for sparge. I'd put 8 g of dextrose and 8 g of yeast in the mash tun, and 10 g of each in the HLT. And there's no reason to "prepare a solution." Just add them dry to your vessels.

BTW if it's more convenient, you can do this the night before, too -- what I usually do. The recent study showing how quickly yeast scavenge oxygen down to 0 ppm also showed that the level stays at 0 literally for days.
 
Thank you for the great information on the yeast process.
So for the Brewtan B.
I have no copper in my system at all, except for the copper immersion chiller.
So if i use the yeast scavenging method, do I need Brewtan B in my mash water, or just in my boil kettle?

Dennis
 
Dennis C. said:
Thank you for the great information on the yeast process.
So for the Brewtan B.
I have no copper in my system at all, except for the copper immersion chiller.
So if i use the yeast scavenging method, do I need Brewtan B in my mash water, or just in my boil kettle?

Dennis
Click to expand...

Yes, keep the Brew Tan B in both. In the mash it acts as an antioxidant. In the boil it acts as a chelating agent to mitigate Fenton's reaction due to the copper in the IC. Add some late in the boil before placing your IC in the boil kettle. Or switch to a stainless steel IC. The added benefit to the late boil addition is that some of the BtB will remain during a whirlpool and carry over into the fermenter, giving protection against oxidation until you pitch the yeast. After the yeast is pitched, then oxygenate the wort. I know, it sounds backwards, but the freshly pitched yeast will rapidly consume the oxygen you added and prevent the fresh wort from oxidizing. The oxygen you add after pitching is necessary for the yeast colony to start a rapid and healthy propagation.

Brooo Brother
 
And welcome to the rabbit hole. Abandon hope all ye who enter here!
(just kidding - sorta)
Just do yourself a favor and commit to several batches before deciding whether to keep doing it. Most people screw things up on their first batch or two and may notice only negligible improvement so some give up on it. I know I screwed up a bunch on my first try but still noticed enough improvement to keep going down this path.
 
RPh_Guy said:
It may be helpful to aerate/oxygenate 3-5 minutes before pitching, so that the yeast aren't exposed to sulfite.
Click to expand...

I'll defer to the German Brewers or LoDO gurus to state their case on pitching yeast before oxygenation. Your statement about sulfites makes sense, but their sequencing yeast first has good arguments as well. Hopefully one of them will weigh in as to why they advocate yeast first.

Brooo Brother
 
Brooothru said:
I'll defer to the German Brewers or LoDO gurus to state their case on pitching yeast before oxygenation. Your statement about sulfites makes sense, but their sequencing yeast first has good arguments as well. Hopefully one of them will weigh in as to why they advocate yeast first.

Brooo Brother
Click to expand...

The folks commenting here ARE some of the experienced LOB/LODO brewers. You have to understand that the practice is constantly evolving and our understanding of processes and sequencing is constantly evolving and is the subject of current discussion and experimentation. Much of the information put out in the original “paper” has been superseded or expanded upon by more current practices - that was nearly 4 years ago that is was released.
That said, there are “gurus” doing it both ways (oxygenating before pitch and oxygenating after pitch) and having success both ways.
In the end you may have to try multiple processes and see which works best with your equipment, ingredients, process, and workflow.
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
The folks commenting here ARE some of the experienced LOB/LODO brewers. You have to understand that the practice is constantly evolving and our understanding of processes and sequencing is constantly evolving and is the subject of current discussion and experimentation. Much of the information put out in the original “paper” has been superseded or expanded upon by more current practices - that was nearly 4 years ago that is was released.
That said, there are “gurus” doing it both ways (oxygenating before pitch and oxygenating after pitch) and having success both ways.
In the end you may have to try multiple processes and see which works best with your equipment, ingredients, process, and workflow.
Click to expand...
It might be that a hybrid, both/and, approach would be ideal. Oxygenation sufficient to expend sulfites, then pitch, then oxygenation to the desired final level with yeast present. But to dial this in, actual monitoring with an in process DO meter would be required, so most brewers might opt for a prudent, "oxygenate the hell out of it, let it rest a few minutes, then pitch," approach.
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
The folks commenting here ARE some of the experienced LOB/LODO brewers. You have to understand that the practice is constantly evolving and our understanding of processes and sequencing is constantly evolving and is the subject of current discussion and experimentation. Much of the information put out in the original “paper” has been superseded or expanded upon by more current practices - that was nearly 4 years ago that is was released.
That said, there are “gurus” doing it both ways (oxygenating before pitch and oxygenating after pitch) and having success both ways.
In the end you may have to try multiple processes and see which works best with your equipment, ingredients, process, and workflow.
Click to expand...

The most recent consensus on the LOB site seems to strongly suggest that pitching before oxygen will minimize O2 uptake. The thinking is that the "trifecta" that gets carried over from the boil kettle prevents D.O. from being absorbed into the wort during transfer to the fermenter. After the yeast is pitched it needs O2 to support initial propagation and will consume the added O2. The intent is to maintain D.O. < 0.5 ppm from the late addition of trifecta until fermentation begins.

What I believe @RPh_Guy is saying was that oxygenation first reduces residual sulfites (or those in NaMeta included in the trifecta) so there is less H2S and sulfate in the fermenter. IIRC he likes to minimize sulfates. It's a valid POV. I prefer to minimize D.O., which I believe is the key to prolonged freshness and long-term stability. Yeast first was, I believe, the preferred methodology suggested in the latest (Jan. 2020) update on the LOB site, though I could be wrong.

Brooo Brother
 
Robert65 said:
It might be that a hybrid, both/and, approach would be ideal. Oxygenation sufficient to expend sulfites, then pitch, then oxygenation to the desired final level with yeast present. But to dial this in, actual monitoring with an in process DO meter would be required, so most brewers might opt for a prudent, "oxygenate the hell out of it, let it rest a few minutes, then pitch," approach.
Click to expand...

I was actually thinking of trying that this weekend (oxygenate to clear Sulfites until DO starts to register, then pitch, then oxygenate). I just picked up a DO meter. But I agree that this method is out of the reach of most beginning LOBers.

I’ve always pitched then oxygenated to reduce the likelihood of oxidation, but in all reality does it even make a difference? If it is all happening in, say, a 10 minute window, is any introduced DO going to cause oxidation reactions before yeast scrub it out? Weigh that against throwing the yeast into a toxic (to them) sulfite environment that could stunt their growth.

Even Die Beerery recently said “it doesn’t matter” about the order, IIRC, and I tend to agree. It’s a small window and I doubt much damage is being done either way.
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
was actually thinking of trying that this weekend (oxygenate to clear Sulfites until DO starts to register, then pitch, then oxygenate). I just picked up a DO meter.

Even Die Beerery recently said “it doesn’t matter” about the order, IIRC, and I tend to agree. It’s a small window and I doubt much damage is being done either way.
Click to expand...

I would guess that BOTH methods are pathways to D.O. uptake. So the real question is which one is most destructive and/or which provides the most protection. I'm interested to learn what you discover measuring both methods with a D.O. meter, and will likely follow your lead.

Brooo Brother
 
Agree with @Cavpilot2000. Remember the rule of thumb that all chemical reactions speed up or slow down logarithmically with change in temperature. When we talk about cold side oxidation, we are talking about long term protection, as opposed to the instant damage caused by exposure on the hot side. At pitching temperature, oxidative reactions will occur slowly enough that they are a minimal risk, given that yeast will consume all the oxygen in 30 minutes or so. Really, if we're talking about a difference of 5 or 10 minutes either way, how big a problem is that? OTOH, the yeast may well be impaired by sulfites. So if you don't know, the safest option is to pitch after oxygenation and a brief rest (remember, the reaction with sulfites won't be instantaneous either.) This was not the original LOB recommendation, but as Cav noted the advice is in flux, and this is what I'm comfortable with. And I'll judge by the results. If I get good fermentation with a quick start, and the beer is clearly fresh tasting, I think I can put off buying a meter. My $0.02.
 
Robert65 said:
given that yeast will consume all the oxygen in 30 minutes or so.
Click to expand...
1st "wort study" revealed oxygen scavenging took ~60 minutes from pitching. Maybe it's faster at higher temps.

What do you think about just splash racking into the fermenter (or aerating inline) and then pitching and aerating/oxygenating when the fermenter is full ?

I don't believe sulfite inhibits the yeast in beer. It's unclear to me why H2S is produced.
 
RPh_Guy said:
1st "wort study" revealed oxygen scavenging took ~60 minutes from pitching. Maybe it's faster at higher temps.

What do you think about just splash racking into the fermenter (or aerating inline) and then pitching and aerating/oxygenating when the fermenter is full ?

I don't believe sulfite inhibits the yeast in beer. It's unclear to me why H2S is produced.
Click to expand...

Guess I was thinking of YOS when I quoted 30 minutes, at pitching temperature it does take more like 60, thanks for the correction. At any rate it's not a long enough time for oxidation to be a real worry.

I'm not sure splash racking would be sufficient but it certainly seems like it would be a head start. I don't have any way of oxygenation in line like commercial brewers do, so I hadn't thought about that. I just use a wand in the fermentor. My hot "brewhouse" and cold "cellar" operations are in separate areas, so actually oxygenating while filling the fermentor isn't possible. But I just might aim for a little more splashing in the fill now.

I suppose we need some definitive information on sulfites and yeast.
 
In my mind the problem with adding yeast first comes if you are not oxygenating enough, which a lot of brewers aren't. In that case the sulfites will be competing with the yeast for the limited amount of DO and they wont be happy about it. My advice is if you don't have a DO meter to know, then oxygenate first.
 
Bilsch said:
In my mind the problem with adding yeast first comes if you are not oxygenating enough, which a lot of brewers aren't. In that case the sulfites will be competing with the yeast for the limited amount of DO and they wont be happy about it. My advice is if you don't have a DO meter to know, then oxygenate first.
Click to expand...

I think I understand the argument you're making, but wouldn't the net result be the same under those conditions regardless whether yeast is pitched first or after aeration? If we oxygenate first the O2 would be reduced since the yeast isn't competing with the sulfites, meaning less O2 for the yeast when it gets pinched. If we pitch first, then the sulfites and the yeast are in direct competition for the fixed amount of O2.

So the question is not when, but how much, O2 to saturate the wort, as you point out. So then it really wouldn't matter which came first. Chicken or egg, anyone?

Brooo Brother
 
Some members here have lot of experience with this question and are trying to give you their best advice based on same. But hey.. better to learn by making your own mistakes I always say.
 
I have been oxygenating for 4 minutes lately. Today I oxygenated for 2 minutes, pitched, then ran 2 minutes more. I'll let you know if I can tell a difference. Though other factors, like an adjustment in my sulfite dosage and slight changes in wort gravity, pitch rate, and pitching temperature compared to recent batches may obscure any effects.
 
So I did my first LODO brew this weekend.
I used the yeast scavenging method to remove the oxygen from my strike water and my sparge water. I have an electric three vessel HERMS system. I had 13 gallons of strike water which I heated in the boil kettle so I could under-let the mash. I used 26 grams of bread yeast and 26 grams of DME in the 13 gallons of water.
I then had 10 gallons of water in my hot liquor tank which also has my HERMS coil. I used 20 grams of bread yeast and 20 grams of DME in this tank. Once I transferred the heated sparge water to the mash, I noticed a good amount of yeast cream lining the boil kettle. I hosed this off and wiped the kettle with a sponge before I transferred the wort into this boil kettle.
At the end of the brew, when I went to clean my hot liquor tank, the stainless HERMS coil was full of this same yeast cream and it was very hard to get this cleaned. Is this normal, or did I do something wrong?

Dennis
 

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