Homebrewing Needs a Woman's Touch

[LandoLincoln]

what could have been an interesting discussion unfortunately turned into to middle school playground fight. Grow up.

make me!

 

[DrunkleJon]

Show me on the doll where she touched you.

She touched me in the beer place. It felt funny.

 

[Melana]

grow up.

never.

 

[RmikeVT]

Is this guy serious?

I had to give up quilting because all the women ran me out of the hobby.

 

[motobrewer]

i hear it helps

 

[DNKDUKE]

It's not always obvious, and you'd have to bother going to everyone's profiles to figure it out. That's not something I do, at least.

(note to self... h-bar is NOT a stalker)
Ok, that's one...

 

[stpug]

Same one time?

I'm thinking so :fro:

 

[drainbamage]

Is this guy serious?

I had to give up quilting because all the women ran me out of the hobby.

Yesterday when this first came up, I found myself wondering if a cross-stitching forum somewhere out there was having the same discussion about "how can we give cross-stitch a man's touch?"

 

[Melana]

Yesterday when this first came up, I found myself wondering if a cross-stitching forum somewhere out there was having the same discussion about "how can we give cross-stitch a man's touch?"

Hey, I do a lot of cross-stitch work... can you link me to that forum please?

 

[Tin4]

So, lots of stuff to respond to. I'm not going to do that and instead pretend I've read none of your comments.

Is homebrewing a boys club? Lets talk to the ladies themselves as it's a point of disusion in their Brew & A's.

From Hello

Austin: How are women received in the brewing community? Do you feel it's a boys club, or do you see that changing? I'll be frank, conflicted in this line of questioning. There's a part of me that thinks calling out the fact you're a lady is making an issue of it rather than just not mentioning it. Thoughts?

Jessica: I don't know whether to laugh or be offended that you called me a lady!

But really, let's face it, home brewing is a boy's club right now, but the number of women brewers is increasing. I was not surprised to see that men dominated the hobby and to be honest, when I see another woman brewer I am probably oddly star struck. It is like spotting Bigfoot, only prettier and I probably don't have to fear for my life. I would love to see more women brewing, but it may never take off like it has for men. I don't think I could come up with a valuable reason, but I encourage women to brew or get with their significant others and brew together. It is a nice hobby to have because there is usually something to enjoy in the end and it is done at home where you can be present with loved ones or a needy dog; what isn't there to love!?

As far as the question goes, I think it is a fine question to ask. I almost want to believe that women home brewers are independent and very strong. That we value our families, but we have a hobby that is definitely going against the grain of what some people still may believe is inappropriate for women. I think there has been a stigma associated with drinking beer and that it was a man's drink. I think a woman drinking beer from a can, bottle, or even pint glass may be viewed as anything but sexy. A woman holding a nice glass of wine or a nice martini glass was probably more of the picture people had when they thought about women drinking. I still question whether or not this is still the case based on what I see just hanging out in breweries and such. Granted, there are still women around and some who are drinking beer and those who don't look like they're annoyed or bored being at a brewery, but obviously the ratio is definitely skewed in the favor of men. As a lady, I don't mind sitting in a place riddled with men. Men are glorious!

From Melana:

Austin: In my interview with Jessica "Hello" B, we discussed the nature of brewing and whether is was a boy's club. What are your thoughts?

Melana: Oh yes. It's a delightful boys club that (thanks to the pioneering efforts of the site Admin) respects women. Now that's a place for me! I've been to beer functions where I'm the only woman brewer (beer mistress perhaps?!) and the guys are totally cool with having a woman in their midst. My other hobby antique autos is a male dominated hobby and I have no problems fitting in there. I speculate that it's a boys club because most women don't like beer. Pfft... oh well. Girl/boy/whatever... I like hanging with people that brew. On HBT we are all gender neutral. I have in recent years started to define myself as female by my avatar which I do change frequently... I'm completely comfortable being 'just one of the guys'.

Is beer a boys club? Yup. Why is that? Marketing. It's easy to sell things to men. Big Boobs? I'll buy it. It's prying on my sexuality which is visual based. Do I think less of someone who has breast? Nope, but man, I love em so much it's stupid. Does that mean I'm objectifying? Of course, but I have depth. Layers and some such.

Is homebrewing a boys club? Yup. Why is that? More men brew right now, but that's changing. As per Google, 47% of visitors to HBT are women.

Any exclusion, and sense of division is existent outside of homebrewing and worms it's way due to the personalities that support it.

HBT has tried very hard to make ladies feel welcome, not because they are ladies, but because they are people and any sort of negative treatment won't be tolerated.

Report Report Report. See something inappropriate? Report it. We'll set them straight.

 

[drainbamage]

Hey, I do a lot of cross-stitch work... can you link me to that forum please?

Are you kidding?! I don't go near that stuff, it's a chick hobby.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've gotta run before my cookies burn and these flower arrangements I'm working on start wilting.

 

[smitty8202]

Read the first two page of posts in this thread. I'm gonna be quite frank and honest. Who give a flying f**k if there a women homebrewers or brewmasters. Being in the Marines which is a highly male pro dominate community I treat females like one of the males no matter what. I don't care who you are or where you come from. You joins the Corps to be a part of something great don't think for one minute I'm gonna give you the special treatment. As for women in the hobby I think it's sexy as hell when a women actually knows what she's talking about when it comes to beer. My wife has been a bud light drinker for years before I started brewing. She tried my first brew an apa and was hooked hell the next day she brought home a six pack of Avery white rascal and drank one and said make this. Now she wants to join on my brew days. But once again if your a women and you want to homebrew by all mean do your thing girl. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[soccerdad]

Two things
1) I cast my AHA ballot today. 3 women on the ballot. I voted for all 3. Now I am wondering if homebrewdad was sending subliminal messages to me and is really a character made up by Lorena, Sandy and Debbie. Yes - I'm paranoid, but not schizophrenic.
2) Look what happened when men taught women to knit ! A simple exercise in making and mending the nets leads to sweaters, turtlenecks, scarves, toboggans (that's a took for you Canuks) ... what if they take over ??? Or am I paranoid?

 

[Melana]

Are you kidding?! I don't go near that stuff, it's a chick hobby.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've gotta run before my cookies burn and these flower arrangements I'm working on start wilting.

Thank you! This made me spray my diet coke all over my monitor. I SO needed a good laugh today.

 

[sudbuddy]

Thank you! This made me spray my diet coke all over my monitor. I SO needed a good laugh today.

What's with you and @hello spitting out non-alcoholic beverages?! A man would NEVER do that :cross:

 

[Hello]

I'm backing Homebrewdad, here...and I didn't even agree with his blog post. Buuuuut, that's not the point! A few of you immediately twisted his words and opinions into some skewed personal attack which resulted in some very immature and unfair comments. It was an opinion piece, people! RELAX.

What could have been an interesting DISCUSSION unfortunately turned into to middle school playground fight. Grow up.

Who is fighting? Serious question.
I don't think anyone is attacking the guy. I do think that the worst part of the blog post is that he portrays ALL male home brewers as basic cavemen and this is simply not the case. So you need to relax. Yes, it was an opinion piece that he spammed on various sites looking for discussion but also hits. I don't fault him for that at all, I fault him for lumping these fine ass men into one group while single-handedly saying that every single woman has not been welcome into the community. Opinions are awesome, but let's keep it at that and when you write an opinion piece, state it as such. That was not entirely the case here.

I think I took more offense to how men were portrayed than I did the women. I'd venture to guess I'm not alone. You can stand on whatever side you want, but you need to take your own advice. Just a side note, his words weren't twisted. He thinks this community needs to be more welcoming of women and I for one have never felt that way.

 

[Melana]

Who is fighting? Serious question.
I don't think anyone is attacking the guy. I do think that the worst part of the blog post is that he portrays ALL male home brewers as basic cavemen and this is simply not the case. So you need to relax. Yes, it was an opinion piece that he spammed on various sites looking for discussion but also hits. I don't fault him for that at all, I fault him for lumping these fine ass men into one group while single-handedly saying that every single woman has not been welcome into the community. Opinions are awesome, but let's keep it at that and when you write an opinion piece, state it as such. That was not entirely the case here.

I think I took more offense to how men were portrayed than I did the women. I'd venture to guess I'm not alone. You can stand on whatever side you want, but you need to take your own advice. Just a side note, his words weren't twisted. He thinks this community needs to be more welcoming of women and I for one have never felt that way.

Agreed 100%. Except for the 'fine ass men' - are they all? I haven't seen enough to make any opinion either way.

 

[finsfan]

I'll be a pioneer and be the first to jump in the fine ass men category.

 

[MrNatural]

Two things
1) I cast my AHA ballot today. 3 women on the ballot. I voted for all 3.

Normally don't like to repeat myself, but "Might as well"..........
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9fF8yptn8E[/ame]

 

[johngaltsmotor]

Agreed 100%. Except for the 'fine ass men' - are they all? I haven't seen enough to make any opinion either way.

I'm fine with being an ass man. Or a boob man. Heck, if she can put up with me I'll be a "wow you've sure got nice earlobes" man.

 

[homebrewdad]

I do think that the worst part of the blog post is that he portrays ALL male home brewers as basic cavemen and this is simply not the case.

So, as I did earlier with another poster, I'm going to ask that you show me where I did this. This was absolutely not my intention. I offered an opinion based on some observations. I never intended to paint every man with the same brush (I'd be painting myself, no?). If I did, and I'm missing the offending verbiage, please do point it out to me. I will both correct this, and post a retraction, as this was never my intent.

 

[Psylocide]

I look like a cross between Jesus (the white one) and Lyle Lovett.

Do I qualify? Don't answer that if you feel like it would objectify me.

 

[LAHammer]

I'll be a pioneer and be the first to jump in the fine ass men category.

I'm not sure how to take this
Do you want to be one or something more, um....????????????

And - Jesus was white?

 

[mlafnitzegger]

Not sure how you are going to "see" more women involved through a text forum. But, if you look into the profiles of the user base here I expect you will be surprised to see how many are women. Kind of hard to pick out gender when everyone is Arial 12 unless their words or username offer some clue.

Not to disagree with this statement but by default HBT sets user profiles to woman when you create your account. I found this out the hard way. Anyways I still think there are a lot of women members.

 

[Hello]

So, as I did earlier with another poster, I'm going to ask that you show me where I did this. This was absolutely not my intention. I offered an opinion based on some observations. I never intended to paint every man with the same brush (I'd be painting myself, no?). If I did, and I'm missing the offending verbiage, please do point it out to me. I will both correct this, and post a retraction, as this was never my intent.

Your blog post came off this way to me.

 

[homebrewdad]

Your blog post came off this way to me.

Okay, cool. So, I'm legitimately asking for feedback, as I clearly failed at communication here.

What did I say to make you think I was generalizing all men as sexist trolls or whatnot? Because, hey - it would be cool for posterity to make it read better.

 

[finsfan]

Okay, cool. So, I'm legitimately asking for feedback, as I clearly failed at communication here.

What did I say to make you think I was generalizing all men as sexist trolls or whatnot? Because, hey - it would be cool for posterity to make it read better.

"HOME BREWING CULTURE".

Culture - the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

When you say the homebrewing culture is sexist, you refer to the entire group or large majority of that group.

 

[motobrewer]

The ability to read is not a prerequisite for creating a blog.

 

[Trox]

Okay, cool. So, I'm legitimately asking for feedback, as I clearly failed at communication here.

What did I say to make you think I was generalizing all men as sexist trolls or whatnot? Because, hey - it would be cool for posterity to make it read better.

Outside of the brief history lesson in the beginning your whole blog comes off as portraying the whole home brewing club/hobby/business as being very exclusionary towards women. So while you don't come right out and say that the men in homebrewing are sexist; the way your blog is written pretty much implies it. That may or may not have been your intention, but that is the way it reads.

I will also have to disagree with your opinion since I've have never seen anyone be derogatory towards a homebrewer just because they are female; either here on HBT or elsewhere I've been to. Just out of curiosity if it is as rampant as you claim then would you mind linking to a few examples? I would honestly like to see how someone is being dismissive to another homebrewer just because of their gender.

 

[Psylocide]

Outside of the brief history lesson in the beginning your whole blog comes off as portraying the whole home brewing club/hobby/business as being very exclusionary towards women. So while you don't come right out and say that the men in homebrewing are sexist; the way your blog is written pretty much implies it. That may or may not have been your intention, but that is the way it reads.

I will also have to disagree with your opinion since I've have never seen anyone be derogatory towards a homebrewer just because they are female; either here on HBT or elsewhere I've been to. Just out of curiosity if it is as rampant as you claim then would you mind linking to a few examples? I would honestly like to see how someone is being dismissive to another homebrewer just because of their gender.

Well, his other example of where this was getting traction was reddit, and we know that place is where the worst people on Earth reside.

 

[progmac]

"HOME BREWING CULTURE".

Culture - the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

When you say the homebrewing culture is sexist, you refer to the entire group or large majority of that group.

The word 'sexist' isn't in the blog post, although it is implied. I think the original post was quite level-headed and bares little resemblance to the straw-man version of that post that many of the posters in this thread are apparently responding to.

 

[philosofool]

Yeah... white males are so privileged, we get everything handed to us and hardly have to work for anything.

I don't know if this comment is exactly sexist, but it's a very good example of a comment that women might find alienating, frustrating, and manifesting an attitude that makes being a woman on these boards hard: it simply, without reason or cause, refuses to take the possibility of sexist priviledge seriously and badly misses the point of discussions of it.

 

[homebrewdad]

The word 'sexist' isn't in the blog post, although it is implied. I think the original post was quite level-headed and bares little resemblance to the straw-man version of that post that many of the posters in this thread are apparently responding to.

Thanks. I had started to make responses to some other posts, but really, that just makes me look childish. I do appreciate you noting the distinction.

 

[BGBC]

Agreed 100%. Except for the 'fine ass men' - are they all? I haven't seen enough to make any opinion either way.

Fine. Ass man here.

 

[Homercidal]

I think on the whole, women are welcomed here by pretty much everyone.

But under the surface there is a lot of "Manspeak" going on. It's bound to offend some women, just as it likely offends some men as well.

It's practically unavoidable and it's the natural effluence you get when many men congregate in one location. I'm sure there is a similar kind of conversation in a women's dominated forum, but I don't know that for certain, because I haven't hung out in a forum mainly populated with people of the female sex.

That kind of makes me wonder how the average guy would be welcomed in such a place... Would he be ostracized for intruding on a "women's" forum, or would he get more attention for being different from the majority? Would the ladies talk about hot guys on TV? Would they want to see hot guys with their shirts off?

Who knows. I almost joined a quilting forum one time, but I changed my mind after I found out how much friggin work it is to make a quilt! Screw that! (oh, sorry ladies, didn't mean to use such strong language.)

 

[Hello]

Okay, cool. So, I'm legitimately asking for feedback, as I clearly failed at communication here.

What did I say to make you think I was generalizing all men as sexist trolls or whatnot? Because, hey - it would be cool for posterity to make it read better.

I did indeed miss the point. Buy hey, including snark in your follow up is a sure fire way to get my attention.

So...this is one:

"HOME BREWING CULTURE".

Culture - the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

When you say the homebrewing culture is sexist, you refer to the entire group or large majority of that group.

But to use my own words, you wrote, "I believe that, for whatever reason, the culture of brewing seems to very much be that of a "boys' club". This is the foundation of your framework wherein you identify the culture of brewing being a "boys' club." I'd like to point out that I do not disagree with this statement as I too have stated this prior to your blog post. I wrote in a HBT interview, "home brewing is a boy's club right now…" But the purpose of the quote is to lay foundation for my response. This hobby is a boys' club. Check.

"Sure, I understand that, for whatever reason, craft beer itself seems to be far more popular with men than with women - but that is changing. As craft beer culture overall grows (and craft beer sales continue to carve away market share from the big boys), women are consuming more and more beer; the percentage of total beer consumed by women is steadily increasing. And yet, if you visit any popular online forum for homebrewing, you'll find that female members are all but completely nonexistent."

So you understand home brewing is a boys' club, but then you expand the foundation to craft beer itself. Check. You agree it is more popular with men than women. I do not disagree. Back to my interview, I even mentioned that. You equate the culture (remember this is a man's culture or boys' club) expanding to the reason women want to drink more beer. Thus you draw a line between expanding culture of the boys' club to women consuming more beer and then you take a weird turn back to the actual craft of brewing and state female members are completely (this is quite a word to use) nonexistent. How do you qualify completely here? Do you read the front page articles? The interviews of the women who are standing tall side by side brewers who have been brewing as long as you've been married? My guess is no, otherwise you could no have used the word completely and nonexistent in a full sentence with a straight face.

"Part of the reason behind that, I believe, is due to the culture that is so prevalent among brewers. Terms like SWMBO ("She Who Must Be Obeyed", in reference to one's significant other) litter internet forums."

So your perspective on SWMBO is that the term is off-putting to women? I've actually written the same in this thread but I can see how my wall-o-texts can lead to people missing something. I fully understand. Your opinion on the term is clearly negative. It is an opinion though and shall be deemed as nothing more. This is where you take the turn into claiming the culture, which you have referred to as home brewing AND craft beer drinking, is challenging towards women. Got it.

"Women who post to homebrewing forums are all too often challenged on their content - simply because of their gender - if they can manage to avoid being objectified."
Using this site AND Reddit, I do not see women being objectified in home brewing. I see them being used as a marketing tool on the brewing network. I believe you have mistaken the brewing network's sales tactics to fully represent the craft of home brewing and craft beer drinking. It does not.

Women are challenged on the forums? I see women and men posting responses and if they're wrong (I am GASP wrong from time to time) then I am corrected. That is not challenged, that is corrected. People should correct me when I am wrong. I've never seen anyone decide not to brew @yooper 's fizzy yellow beer recipe because it came from a home brewer with lady bits. So while you want me to qualify my statement, qualify yours, please.

"Try listening to most of the popular brewing podcasts"
And herein lies your true issue; the Brewing Network. If there is another podcast that you're pointing the finger at then you definitely did not imply it. You made it sound very much like the BN is sexist.

"Look, I won't pretend that I've never participated in locker room humor with my buddies. Sure, it's part of being a guy, and if you are alone with other guys, what's the harm?"
So doing this behind closed doors is okay, but you don't dare do it in public? Because it is rude, if I recall you stating. I get it, but if you sit behind closed doors with your wife and speak horrible things of another race, for example, are you not a racist because you don't do it outside your home? If it matters, most things I write on line are things I would say to someone's face. I may not bring up poop or something, but overall, I'm pretty consistent.

"The problem is that we seem to take that small group mentality and apply it to our hobby as a whole."
Who is we? This is where the caveman thing really comes around. The small group mentality, which I think are boys in a locker room, is somehow pushed over into home brewing? Don't you think that a small group of men standing around a pot of boiling wort talking about someone's fine ass and such is not anything less than locker room talk? Locker room talk extends well outside the locker room. But to you it is somehow more harmful because why? It is done outside?

Your use of "we" has narrowed down all men. You state that part of being a guy is when you're with other guys you get to be a pig. Awesome. But you make it seem as though all men are sexist pigs behind closed doors, it's the ones that do it in public that suck. Then you wrap that around and say this behavior is taken to the community. And that is where I believe you lumped every single man into some "culture" and claimed that they make women's lives tough in the home brewing community. If they had kept their crap in check until they all gathered in a locker room then this would not be an issue for you.

"But in homebrewing, we seem to actively encourage this. Why?"
Who is "we"? According to your blog it is all male home brewers. Lumped all together like marshmallows that got splashed with water. How is anyone actively encouraging this? What I do know of you is that you actively encourage being a pig in a locker room, or something that resembles the idea of one, but doing it in public (damn you Brewing Network) is totally not okay.

I'm going to give you this; we're all a little different behind closed doors. I would actually try not to fart in public but I'd fart in my bedroom. Does it make it wrong? Well it is a fart and holding them in can cause issues, but there are times when being different behind closed doors is acceptable. If you find it acceptable to be sexist in a locker room but not in public, then that's your opinion. Are all men like that? I don't know. They've asked me to stop hanging out in men's locker rooms indefinitely.

BTW, I think what you meant to say overall is that you would like to see the hobby be more embracing of women. Not that it needs a woman's touch. Some women act more trashy then some men. I don't think that is what you'd like to see here. In spite of this, my response would have likely been the same. I've have a few hobbies and none have been more embracing than this one. In fact, it may be the reason why it has stuck for me. It certainly isn't the clean up part.

I hope I managed to answer your question or at least clarify why I took away what I took away from your blog. I for one have enjoyed this. I mean, I got hit on, even if it was a joke, I've been empowered and seen members of both genders rally around one another, and I've encountered members here that I would not have encountered otherwise and those members have been both enlightening and entertaining.

 

[wardens355]

The word 'sexist' isn't in the blog post, although it is implied. I think the original post was quite level-headed and bares little resemblance to the straw-man version of that post that many of the posters in this thread are apparently responding to.

From the post:

"Women who post to homebrewing forums are all too often challenged on their content - simply because of their gender - if they can manage to avoid being objectified."

Seems more direct than implied to me. If there were any examples of said behavior linked to the article there would at least be some premise for this statement. Without it, a large portion of the post pretty much reads as baseless assertion.

As far as the rail against indecent language on forums and podcasts at the end of the post... Homebrewing is an adult activity, so to assume there won't necessarily be adult language/content in related posts seems foolish. People that are passionate about drinking tend not to be the prude, politically correct type, and their audience is not children (nor should it be). This is reflected in the content of homebrewing posts.

 

[Grossy]

Okay, cool. So, I'm legitimately asking for feedback, as I clearly failed at communication here.

What did I say to make you think I was generalizing all men as sexist trolls or whatnot? Because, hey - it would be cool for posterity to make it read better.

"I believe that, for whatever reason, the culture of brewing seems to very much be that of a "boys' club"

"The problem is that we seem to take that small group mentality and apply it to our hobby as a whole.* Can you imagine almost any other industry where one of the biggest retailers would ever suggest "blowing a warm load" on their customer's faces?* Of course not.* In most industries, that would be a one way ticket to Out Of Businessville."

Your use of the terms "We", "our"... (as in men) there is your sexist statement. And by using the plural words you lumped me in with your statement. Notice the use of singular pronouns.

 

[homebrewdad]

Hello, if I came across as snarky, I apologize. I was legitimately asking for your feedback, and why you got the vibe that you did.

I'm not going to go line by line for your response, but I AM going to thank you for taking the time to share your insights and criticisms. I really was asking for feedback, and I very much appreciate you giving it.

I will point this out - no, I don't care to the Brewing Network, but that's more because I don't want to listen to an hour of silly jokes, sponsor slobbering, and whatnot for five minutes of good content. It's not about being personally offended; they can make dick jokes all day long, whatever - people will listen or they won't. I do find the commercials to be pretty amazing; as I pointed out, there are very few industries where that kind of thing would fly, so I'm surprised that it's okay here. But, whatever.

So, if I'm reading it right, the basic gist is that you feel I take some legitimate points, but expand those out to unfairly include too large of a group? Fair enough.

Again, I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

wait a sec... this is a home brewing forum?!? wtf?!? like in a bathtub? and involving wimmin folk in such despicable activities! y'all should be ashamed of yourselves!