Homebrewing Needs a Woman's Touch

[h-bar]

I have not experienced any sexism on HBT. I agree with Yooper, that most of us probably don't care what gender everyone is. It's not always obvious, and you'd have to bother going to everyone's profiles to figure it out. That's not something I do, at least.

In the real world, on the other hand, I have absolutely experienced sexism with regard to homebrewing. In fact, I'd have to say I've experienced it more there than at my job, as a chemist. I've had homebrew store employees talk down to me, and I've also had male homebrewers simply not take me seriously. That said, after I explain that I do all-grain, temperature control my fermentations, and care about my mash pH, most people are more accepting of me.

Those experiences aren't something I dwell on, however. I care much more about making some tasty brew! I think HBT is just fine the way it is, and I definitely don't want it to get "tumblr" around here!

 

[unionrdr]

Beerquaintences is a pretty good word. Although the spell checker doesn't agree. Maybe it's sexist? But seriously, it doesn't matter what gender, race or creed you are on here. If it does, leave it at the door on your way in. You won't regret it & may even learn something in the process. And after sampling some of frau administrators wares, I can honestly say that shes right up there with the best of them...beyond the literal sense.
The other wimmens on here seem to be of a like mind. I find that interesting. My wife's a wimmens & she can be a lady or one of the gang as may be appropo at the time. That's what endears them to the homebrewing community in my opinion. So I say let's just go with that for starters. In all my years of fermenting things, or experiencing things fermented by the different generations in my extended family, I can honestly say that quality of said fermentations knows no gender. So it's a non-issue to me as well as to this site. to all!

 

[Hoppity]

We don't date here. We just auction off the wives.

I open the bidding at two 12 oz bottles of IPA and a bomber of Stout.

 

[Darwin18]

Venture forth SJWs!!!

Seriously this is a stupid topic. In my experience, this is a welcoming hobby for both men and women. There are definitely more male brewers but more and more women are getting involved in the hobby. The BOS from NHC two years ago was a female. The local club I'm affiliated with has female members and every competition that I've ever participated in has at least a couple female judges, stewards, and coordinators.

 

[VT-NAV]

Maybe realize that most women generally don't appreciate it when you say things like, "My server at the brew pub didn't know a damn thing about the beer she was serving, but it was OK because she was HOT!!!"

How is that in any way offensive to women? It's an opinion and not in the least bit degrading.

If you really don't know by now, I'm not certain you're capable of understanding.

Have we all become sensitive that we can't even appreciate the female form (or male, if it applies)? That's a basic instinct that you're trying to jam back in a bottle and chastise those that might make a comment on it amongst friends?

Locker room talk is perfectly fine in the locker room. The problem the OP pointed out, which you completely fail to realize, is that many people treat HBT like one big locker room. Again, it's not a huge problem here, there are really only a handful of people who consistently say dumb things.

Every day women whistle at me when I'm walking down the street... they yell things at me like "Hey hott stuff" or "Damn you fine" and such. And you know what? I appreciate that.

*snort* Ok studmuffin, are you really arguing that catcalls and objectification make women feel appreciated? Because that's what it sounds like. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, so please tell me I missed the actual point you were trying to make.

The thing about the internet is that it gives a voice to everyone. On an economic forum discussion about interest rates, the opinions of Alan Greenspan would get just as much attention as the Obamaphone Lady's.

 

[DrunkleJon]

Hey now, this is a touch the women thread. Not a touch the old geezer thread.

Bad touch! Bad touch! I need an adult! I need an adult!

 

[stpug]

I literally did LOL at that.

I have a couple of things to say. One is that I haven't felt overt sexism here, for the most part. Not the day I arrived to the forum nearly 9 years ago, or now.

There are a few cave men- but I see them in the real world also.

About the BN- well, I don't listen to it all that much due to the sophomoric humor but it's not because I'm a woman, it's because three hours of fart jokes is just not funny to me. However, next Monday when I'm a guest on there- please listen! I like Justin very much, and he is on the AHA governing committee, and he is not misogynistic at all.

The AHA does have a Diversity Committee, and things have changed dramatically in the last 7 years since I joined. At my first national conference, there were a handful of women and about 800 men. There were no 'minorities' that I saw, except for one speaker. There are still not a ton of minorities, but the Homebrewer of the Year in 2013 at the NHC was an African-American female. Many of the AHA Governing Committee members are female- but I didn't count them because it doesn't matter what their gender is.

Part of the reason that I don't see much sexism here (aside from some younger newer guys who think women only like 'fruity beer') is simply because most of us don't care if you are a male or female. This is not a dating site- this is a brewing site.

I have always been treated with respect here by the other members, and have developed life-long friendships, including meeting one of my best friends on this site. (Yes, he is a male).

The one thing that makes me crazy is trying to be inclusive of females and minorities by singling them out. There are all-female competitions, for example, like the Queen of Beer. I will not enter them. There are all-female homebrew clubs- I generally cringe at the idea.

I am a brewer, and a pretty good one. Whether I have breasts or a penis (or like some of the guys here, both ) doesn't affect the finished beer. And, people have not treated me like it does.

nestar: FINALLY, a woman's touch nestar:

 

[Psylocide]

If you really don't know by now, I'm not certain you're capable of understanding.

*snort* Ok studmuffin, are you really arguing that catcalls and objectification make women feel appreciated? Because that's what it sounds like. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, so please tell me I missed the actual point you were trying to make.

The thing about the internet is that it gives a voice to everyone. On an economic forum discussion about interest rates, the opinions of Alan Greenspan would get just as much attention as the Obamaphone Lady's.

I think your humor detector is broken.

 

[VT-NAV]

I think your humor detector is broken.

If that was all sarcasm, it was too cleverly masked for me.

 

[progmac]

Venture forth SJWs!!!

Seriously this is a stupid topic. In my experience, this is a welcoming hobby for both men and women. There are definitely more male brewers but more and more women are getting involved in the hobby. The BOS from NHC two years ago was a female. The local club I'm affiliated with has female members and every competition that I've ever participated in has at least a couple female judges, stewards, and coordinators.

While I don't agree with the prevailing sentiment in this thread, I will say that one of the great things about the judging world is that there is no way for judges to know anything about the person who brewed the beer.

When symphony orchestras began doing blind auditions in the 90s, the number of female musicians increased five-fold, from 5% to 25%, just from the hiring committee not knowing the gender of the performer.

In the competition setting for homebrew, that same advantage is built-in!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I think your humor detector is broken.

More like a defective NOTAR.

 

[1977Brewer]

I tend to not judge anyone for their taste in beverages, but my wife won't drink anything that's not Moscato, or made with Malibu. So I'm making her a coconut porter. If she hates it, I'll love it. I love fruity crap.

Back to the delightful discussion at hand. I was a son, grandson, brother, husband, and father to some of the most amazing women I have ever known well before I decided I wanted to start a yeast circus. This has informed my worldview to the point that I can and will call out overt mysogyny wherever I see it.

Homebrewing doesn't have a problem. A handful of homebrewers do. It's not widespread, and it sure isn't a huge deal here.

 

[Psylocide]

If that was all sarcasm, it was too cleverly masked for me.

I was serious about the first part. If you're offended by a good looking woman, then that's a problem with you.

I mean... we see a good looking person (let's not make it about gender eh?), and, should we instantly feel bad about that? Is thinking it and not saying it any better?

Is it bad to talk to a friend about those feelings? Or just shove 'em deep down and hope not to offend anyone?

Oh god, I hope I didn't offend anyone.

That's no way to live.

 

[user 30639]

From what I've seen, this forum is far more welcoming to women than some others I post on.

 

[Psylocide]

I tend to not judge anyone for their taste in beverages, but my wife won't drink anything that's not Moscato, or made with Malibu. So I'm making her a coconut porter. If she hates it, I'll love it. I love fruity crap.

Back to the delightful discussion at hand. I was a son, grandson, brother, husband, and father to some of the most amazing women I have ever known well before I decided I wanted to start a yeast circus. This has informed my worldview to the point that I can and will call out overt mysogyny wherever I see it.

Homebrewing doesn't have a problem. A handful of homebrewers do. It's not widespread, and it sure isn't a huge deal here.

Oh man... I actually love Malibu Coconut rum.

I do about a 3 sec pour of Malibu, top up with pineapple juice and hit it with a shot of grenadine. Floccing amazing summer drink, goes down wayyyy too easy.

And looks pretty too. But looks aren't the only thing that matters, hmkay?

 

[1977Brewer]

Malibu and ginger ale, splash of grapefruit for me. I like fruity but not too sweet. Also drinks easy, and pairs well with sunshine and light beer.

 

[Hello]

Perhaps women are being scared out of home brewing because of male oriented forum names:

Names like "homebrewdad".

Why would the OP name himself with the word "Dad"? His very name is MALE-DOMINATED (insert sound of rolling drums here)

I think this needs to be explored in more detail.

Poking the bear! Poking the bear!

This is not a dating site- this is a brewing site.

WHAT? Fuq it, I'm out then.

I am a brewer, and a pretty good one. Whether I have breasts or a penis (or like some of the guys here, both ) doesn't affect the finished beer. And, people have not treated me like it does.

From what I hear, you are a great brewer and last I checked, brewing did not require a penis or a vagina. I also checked BeerSmith and there is no ingredient listed so I can't even imagine what that will add to the ABV, IBU, and SRM of my recipe.

I am in full agreement with you and I have experienced much of the same in my time here.

Bad touch! Bad touch! I need an adult! I need an adult!

Show me on the doll where she touched you.

… I love fruity crap.
…

Such a girl.

Pssst Homebrewdaddy, I am kidding, he's not a girl and not all girls like fruity stuff.

 

[homebrewdad]

Poking the bear! Poking the bear!

Growl and all of that.

Seriously - thanks to all of you who participated in the discussion, even if you happen to think that I'm a complete nutbag. Props to the HBT community for being the antithesis of the problem I present, though I might hold that mocking me personally doesn't change the fact that a lot of women have encountered the negativity I talk about.

But hey... maybe HBT is more representative of the hobby than I realized. If so, fantastic - maybe the situation is better than I thought. Maybe it's like customer service - you never hear about the good, you only hear the complaints of people that don't get good service.

Again, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Psylocide]

Growl and all of that.

Seriously - thanks to all of you who participated in the discussion, even if you happen to think that I'm a complete nutbag. Props to the HBT community for being the antithesis of the problem I present, though I might hold that mocking me personally doesn't change the fact that a lot of women have encountered the negativity I talk about.

But hey... maybe HBT is more representative of the hobby than I realized. If so, fantastic - maybe the situation is better than I thought. Maybe it's like customer service - you never hear about the good, you only hear the complaints of people that don't get good service.

Again, thanks for the discussion.

What led you to believe there was a problem in the first place? I guess, what inspired the post? Were you just thinking about it in your head?

I don't mean on HBT, but the hobby in general. Did you witness sexism/discrimination first hand? Did someone complain to you or openly to others about it?

Or did you just think less women involved = sexist/male dominated culture with no room for equality?

Just curious really.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

... last I checked, brewing did not require a penis or a vagina.

Well, to be fair, it does make a difference on how to check fermenter temps.

 

[1977Brewer]

Growl and all of that.

Seriously - thanks to all of you who participated in the discussion, even if you happen to think that I'm a complete nutbag. Props to the HBT community for being the antithesis of the problem I present, though I might hold that mocking me personally doesn't change the fact that a lot of women have encountered the negativity I talk about.

But hey... maybe HBT is more representative of the hobby than I realized. If so, fantastic - maybe the situation is better than I thought. Maybe it's like customer service - you never hear about the good, you only hear the complaints of people that don't get good service.

Again, thanks for the discussion.

HBT is the only representation of the hobby to me thus far, aside from the awesome dudes at my LHBS and a few aquaintances, one of whom is a flat out pig, and would be if he happened to golf, or fish, or build ships in bottles.

As for representation from other races, the only other customer in my LHBS yesterday was Hispanic. He has a barleywine in an oak barrel he was worried about. I was able to put my knowledge from this place into play, even as a rookie. His beer is ruined. He'll have it all packaged and ready for me to test on Saturday.

 

[Hello]

Growl and all of that.

Seriously - thanks to all of you who participated in the discussion, even if you happen to think that I'm a complete nutbag. Props to the HBT community for being the antithesis of the problem I present, though I might hold that mocking me personally doesn't change the fact that a lot of women have encountered the negativity I talk about.

But hey... maybe HBT is more representative of the hobby than I realized. If so, fantastic - maybe the situation is better than I thought. Maybe it's like customer service - you never hear about the good, you only hear the complaints of people that don't get good service.

Again, thanks for the discussion.

Poking the bear is not really mocking so much as it was a comment that stirs things a little.

I know you keep writing that there are a lot of women encountering what you encountered but I also didn't see it on Reddit as much as you were saying. I wonder if this is really your disapproval of the third grade humor the Brewing Network seems to have. Once someone brought up fart jokes, I admit I realized I had listened to an episode and was not entertained enough to come back to it. I will listen in on @yooper 's episode.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and a blog is definitely the place where you should feel free to voice it. You obviously hit on a topic that some were interested in discussing, whether in agreement or not.

 

[homebrewdad]

What led you to believe there was a problem in the first place? I guess, what inspired the post? Were you just thinking about it in your head?

I don't mean on HBT, but the hobby in general. Did you witness sexism/discrimination first hand? Did someone complain to you or openly to others about it?

Or did you just think less women involved = sexist/male dominated culture with no room for equality?

Just curious really.

I'm active on other online venues, and have read complaints, and have seen the misogyny firsthand. My own personal feelings about what I've heard in some ads and programming. Reports of how some people have been treated in their LHBS, etc.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that less women involved means no room for equality. I'm well aware that (a) odds are, men will always dominate this hobby and (b) that's not a "bad" thing, it's just "a" thing.

So, I put together some opinions, framed the post as an opinion piece, and shared it. The discussions have varied; some agree, some disagree, some mock me, some have sent some shockingly offensive private messages and such my way. It's all good.

Understand, I'm not trying to be a crusader/white knight/societal censor. I think that there is a problem. That problem may or may not affect or involve you or people that you know. I think that it's valid to talk about it. Which we have done here.

 

[1977Brewer]

It's definitely a discussion worth having. I'm glad it blew up the way it did, because there's a ton of funny peeps here, and I only read maybe 10 pages of this.

 

[homebrewdad]

Poking the bear is not really mocking so much as it was a comment that stirs things a little.

I know you keep writing that there are a lot of women encountering what you encountered but I also didn't see it on Reddit as much as you were saying. I wonder if this is really your disapproval of the third grade humor the Brewing Network seems to have. Once someone brought up fart jokes, I admit I realized I had listened to an episode and was not entertained enough to come back to it. I will listen in on @yooper 's episode.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and a blog is definitely the place where you should feel free to voice it. You obviously hit on a topic that some were interested in discussing, whether in agreement or not.

Nah, poking the bear isn't. I think that it's pretty obvious that yes, I was mocked in multiple places in this thread, but that's okay.

I certainly did not mean to misrepresent. Some on reddit agreed, some disagreed. As for the Brewing Network - do notice that I never once named ANY party. I quoted one commercial I found to be offensive, that's it. The community reacted and ran with that.

I made an opinion piece, and I welcome the discussion. If an opinion can't withstand discussion and criticism, then there was never a point for having it, now was there?

 

[LAHammer]

If this doesn't get more women involved, I don't know what will.

 

[finsfan]

I think mocking you is totally allowed when you come in here guns blazing that the homebrewing culture is sexist. Is there sexism happening? Yes. Is there need for the conversation and further change? Yes. Does that warrant you to group all the male homebrewers as sexist? Hell no! That is the issue most of us here have with your opinion. I think the mocking you have received is far less damaging than calling the homebrewing culture sexist.

 

[1977Brewer]

If this doesn't get more women involved, I don't know what will.

brewdad said we're sexist, not sexiest.

 

[chocotaco]

This thread has already hit the dumpster... but I have to say:

There are less women homebrewing than there are men. But it's not necessarily a problem with the hombrew community. It's because women generally don't like beer as much as men do. And you have to really like beer to start brewing it as a hobby.

Of course there are plenty of women who love beer, and there are plenty of women who brew it as well. But overall, there are very few men who don't like beer, and that has to do with the marketing of beer. Beer is just marketed toward men. I don't know why that is, but when marketing trains boys from a very young age to grow up and drink beer, then it's not really surprising that men are more into beer. I have never seen a single beer ad targeted at women.

That said, there is certainly discrimination in the homebrewing community. There is discrimination everywhere, against everyone. Some people will have anecdotes about how their LHBS is condescending toward women, and I don't doubt it. One guy at my LHBS is condescending toward everyone. Some people are just jerks, and even homebrewers can be jerks. I bet there are even some women homebrewers who are jerks.

So the takeaway is: some people are jerks, and some people aren't. It's universal.

Edit: I may be a jerk, but at least I'm an equal opportunity jerk.

 

[homebrewdad]

I think mocking you is totally allowed when you come in here guns blazing that the homebrewing culture is sexist. Is there sexism happening? Yes. Is there need for the conversation and further change? Yes. Does that warrant you to group all the male homebrewers as sexist? Hell no! That is the issue most of us here have with your opinion. I think the mocking you have received is far less damaging than calling the homebrewing culture sexist.

Can you please quote where I said this? Because if I did, that was never my intention, and I will edit and post a retraction.

I did say that the culture seems to be very much of a boys' club.

I did say that we seem to take the "small group of buddies" mentality and apply it to the hobby as a whole, which is where I mentioned the "warm load of customer service" line, and observed that in most other industries, that would never fly.

I suggested that we should make conscious decisions to be more inclusive in our attitudes and language, and that our retailers should be held to the same standards that would apply in other industries.


NOWHERE do I say that "all male homebrewers are sexist", that no woman can walk into an LHBS or a homebrewing club and be taken seriously, etc. I mentioned that I would love to see more women blog about homebrewing, as I think the perspective would be interesting.

I offered to let female bloggers promote their content on my site, or to let a prospective female blogger host there - while making the point that ANYONE can host or promote their blog on my site.

I feel like you guys are putting words in my mouth a bit. "Gee, that hyper-sensitive homebrewdad... somebody made a dirty joke, now he's offended!"

But either way, it did kick off a discussion. Which is what I really hoped to see.

 

[SharonaZamboni]

I thought I'd throw in my two cents.



If there was a way to make HBT more open and accepting of women, it would be to tone down the locker-room banter. Maybe realize that most women generally don't appreciate it when you say things like, "My server at the brew pub didn't know a damn thing about the beer she was serving, but it was OK because she was HOT!!!" Sure, some women want to be one of the guys and will go out of their way to let you know that kind of talk doesn't bother them (there have been a few in this thread). But if you really do want to give the OP's idea the attention it deserves, think about how the silent majority reacts to our behavior rather than the vocal few.

You sound like a very respectful person, which is great. However, I don't recall many (any?) posts where a woman complained about locker room humor here. Maybe our ideas of humor are similar, or maybe the jokes are just mild.
I spend an inordinate amount of time reading HBT every day, and usually find at least a couple of posts that make me laugh audibly. The amount and types of joking and sarcasm is perfect for me. It almost always comes across as "having fun with" rather than "making fun of".

Every day women whistle at me when I'm walking down the street... they yell things at me like "Hey hott stuff" or "Damn you fine" and such. And you know what? I appreciate that.

BRB. Off to check the MoHBT thread!

Bad touch! Bad touch! I need an adult! I need an adult!

Ha!

Poking the bear! Poking the bear!

WHAT? Fuq it, I'm out then.

From what I hear, you are a great brewer and last I checked, brewing did not require a penis or a vagina. I also checked BeerSmith and there is no ingredient listed so I can't even imagine what that will add to the ABV, IBU, and SRM of my recipe.

I am in full agreement with you and I have experienced much of the same in my time here.

Show me on the doll where she touched you.
Such a girl.

See? This post cracked me up!

 

[chocotaco]

I feel like you guys are putting words in my mouth a bit. "Gee, that hyper-sensitive homebrewdad... somebody made a dirty joke, now he's offended!"

But either way, it did kick off a discussion. Which is what I really hoped to see.

FWIW, I don't think you were wrong in noticing or pointing out that it's a male-dominated hobby. But I think your analysis of the reasons behind it are a little off-base. If you can't listen to a podcast, ANY podcast with your wife or kids without having earmuffs at the ready, then that podcaster is a jerk. Whether it's about brewing or something else. Vote with your ears and don't listen to a jerk's podcast.

Some quick feedback about your site - I would increase the line-height of the content area to at least 1.4. The readability suffers when the line-height is so small (it is set to 1 right now).

Add:
#content {
line-height: 1.4;
}

Also remove line-height: 100% from line 39 of style.css.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

You know what I find MOST ironic about this thread?

It's that given how I do what I do when I do what I do and considering how often and how long I have been doing this , it is always the "fellas" that seem to get their panties in a twist.

 

[homebrewdad]

FWIW, I don't think you were wrong in noticing or pointing out that it's a male-dominated hobby. But I think your analysis of the reasons behind it are a little off-base. If you can't listen to a podcast, ANY podcast with your wife or kids without having earmuffs at the ready, then that podcaster is a jerk. Whether it's about brewing or something else. Vote with your ears and don't listen to a jerk's podcast.

Some quick feedback about your site - I would increase the line-height of the content area to at least 1.4. The readability suffers when the line-height is so small (it is set to 1 right now).

Add:
#content {
line-height: 1.4;
}

Also remove line-height: 100% from line 39 of style.css.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

 

[Melana]

You know what I find MOST ironic about this thread?

It's that given how I do what I do when I do what I do and considering how often and how long I have been doing this , it is always the "fellas" that seem to get their panties in a twist.

Homebrewing fellas wear panties?
Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Homebrewing fellas wear panties?
Pics or it didn't happen.

There was that one time...

 

[chocotaco]

Homebrewing fellas wear panties?
Pics or it didn't happen.

It was ONE TIME! GOSH!

 

[stpug]

There was that one time...

It was ONE TIME! GOSH!

Eerie timing there, guys!

 

[clairecunn83]

Can you please quote where I said this? Because if I did, that was never my intention, and I will edit and post a retraction.

I did say that the culture seems to be very much of a boys' club.

I did say that we seem to take the "small group of buddies" mentality and apply it to the hobby as a whole, which is where I mentioned the "warm load of customer service" line, and observed that in most other industries, that would never fly.

I suggested that we should make conscious decisions to be more inclusive in our attitudes and language, and that our retailers should be held to the same standards that would apply in other industries.


NOWHERE do I say that "all male homebrewers are sexist", that no woman can walk into an LHBS or a homebrewing club and be taken seriously, etc. I mentioned that I would love to see more women blog about homebrewing, as I think the perspective would be interesting.

I offered to let female bloggers promote their content on my site, or to let a prospective female blogger host there - while making the point that ANYONE can host or promote their blog on my site.

I feel like you guys are putting words in my mouth a bit. "Gee, that hyper-sensitive homebrewdad... somebody made a dirty joke, now he's offended!"

But either way, it did kick off a discussion. Which is what I really hoped to see.

I'm backing Homebrewdad, here...and I didn't even agree with his blog post. Buuuuut, that's not the point! A few of you immediately twisted his words and opinions into some skewed personal attack which resulted in some very immature and unfair comments. It was an opinion piece, people! RELAX.

What could have been an interesting DISCUSSION unfortunately turned into to middle school playground fight. Grow up.

 

[homebrewdad]

Eerie timing there, guys!

Same one time?