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Ya know... Lowes maxed out at 10/4 here... I am sure you could find it anywhere contractors buy supplies, since they would use it for 50A applications and such. Good question, and I will get back to you on that! Here is a link... http://shop.genuinedealz.com/items/item.aspx?itemid=6040229

As it stands right now, I cannot get 10AWG individual wires at Lowes to wire the inside of my control box, so I have to buy the 10/4 and take off the outer sheath and pull the wires out. Gotta do what ya gotta do!

Today if I dont get called in to work I am going to draw up a template for the control panel face to lay it out.
 
The Pol said:
As it stands right now, I cannot get 10AWG individual wires at Lowes to wire the inside of my control box, so I have to buy the 10/4 and take off the outer sheath and pull the wires out. Gotta do what ya gotta do!
.
Click to expand...

Be sure to use stranded, not solid, wire. My first one was solid wire and it sucked trying to manipulate it. The stranded wire is 100 times better in a control box.
 
Good point, the stuff at Lowes is solid... I need to source some 10AWG stranded for the box... thanks!
 
Alrighty then.. I thought it was just my lowes that didnt carry it.

Good to know on the stranded wire as well.
 
Yeah, Lowes kinda sucks for stuff like this... the ONLY thing I can get there for the control box really is the 12 x 12 project box.
 
I'll be adding 5500W elements to two of my Blichmann 20gal pots using weldless kits like this:

pict0041_1504_detail.jpg


Questions:

So how does one ground the pot properly? On other words, how do you attach the green wire to the pot?

How are people covering up the wires on the outside of the pot to make it safe? Is there an easy way to use plugs so that I don't have a six foot cable dangling around when you go to wash the pot?

Kal
 
I am potting my electrical connections to the element in a block of solid epoxy. Theoretically I could spray the connections with water and there would be no issue. I did this on my HLT as well

I have also seen people installing the element using simply the seal that came with the element and a single SS straight thread nut on the inside of the kettle. Total cost, about $14 for the SS nut.

You could do an electrical box sort of thing as seen above, and have the element wired into a three prong outlet secured to the ouside of the box, THEN use a pigtail from the control box to the kettle, but then you have an open electrical connection right at the kettle, which you are trying to get away from.
 
bmarley5780 said:
Here's one way....
Click to expand...
Thanks bmarley5780 - but I don't want to weld anything onto my Blichmann pots.

The Pol said:
I am potting my electrical connections to the element in a block of solid epoxy.
Click to expand...
What's the epoxy in? Isn't there something that holds it in place?

You could do an electrical box sort of thing as seen above, and have the element wired into a three prong outlet secured to the ouside of the box, THEN use a pigtail from the control box to the kettle, but then you have an open electrical connection right at the kettle, which you are trying to get away from.
Click to expand...
Open connection only if the power is on. I would use 30A locking connectors. Just trying to figure out how to attache a metal or plastic ABS box to the side of the pot. This may be all easier to figure out once I order and receive everything. I'm trying to visualize how it'll work without any of the parts. ;)

slimer said:
The ground for the 120V element in this write-up:Wort-O-Matic: The Electric HLT (or how I built a water heater in a cooler)) is a copper ring that he cut out.
Click to expand...
Hard to tell from the pic, but I seems that the element mount is now grounded? (Obviously the water cooler isn't grounded as it's plastic). This would work I suppose if the copper was in contact with the side of my SS pot... again, maybe I need to wait 'til I have the elements and the weldless fitting and then see what'll work.

Kal
 
kal said:
So how does one ground the pot properly? On other words, how do you attach the green wire to the pot?
Click to expand...

This is what I did for a heat stick:

I covered the hot and neutral connections with JB Weld, and drilled and tapped a hole in the element to attach the ground wire. I imagine that the same procedure would work for mounting it in a kettle.

heatstickJB.jpg
 
I use PVC sleeves or caps (depending on the application) fill them with JB Weld or another suitable insulating epoxy and viola... it is easy. It is as strong as steel, and an insulator... super safe IMHO
 
lustreking said:
This is what I did for a heat stick:

I covered the hot and neutral connections with JB Weld, and drilled and tapped a hole in the element to attach the ground wire. I imagine that the same procedure would work for mounting it in a kettle.

heatstickJB.jpg
Click to expand...
Thanks. That's one idea. My concern would be to put some sort of box or plug to provide strain relief. While what you did works, it puts the strain on the actual wires instead of the wire sheath (housing).

Take a look at how they did it here in this Electric Conversion Kit: Home brewery electric conversion kits

DSC02266-529x298.jpg


DSC02270-244x109.jpg


I can't really tell what they used, but the elements look like they'd install just a washer and likely a silicon o-ring (not shown). The electrical connections are nicely covered up.

bmarley5780 said:
Togo along with the epoxy.
Click to expand...
What's togo? (Other than a country of western Africa on the Gulf of Guinea?) :)

The Pol said:
I use PVC sleeves or caps (depending on the application) fill them with JB Weld or another suitable insulating epoxy and viola... it is easy. It is as strong as steel, and an insulator... super safe IMHO
Click to expand...
Interesting. Got a pic of this Pol?

Thanks guys!

Kal
 
kal said:
Thanks bmarley5780 - but I don't want to weld anything onto my Blichmann pots.
Click to expand...
Actually, I take that back. That's not welded. It's soldered with Stay Brite 8 silver solder and Stay Clean liquid flux. I take it's done with a regular propane torch like for soldering copper pipes. That would be easy but would likely discolour my nice new Blichmann pots. ;)

You can read about it here: Wort-O-Matic: Carl's Electric HLT

Kal
 
kal said:
Thanks. That's one idea. My concern would be to put some sort of box or plug to provide strain relief. While what you did works, it puts the strain on the actual wires instead of the wire sheath (housing).
Click to expand...

Yeah, my strain relief is in the handle of the heatstick.

I think you could get an electrical junction box, drill a hole the size of the threads, and mount that between your kettle wall and heating element. That should take care of your grounding problem, as well as your strain relief problem. I still think that I'd cover the electrical connections with epoxy though.

Then I'd use the bits you pictured earlier to attach it to your kettle on the inside.
pict0041_1504_detail.jpg
 
I drilled a small hole at the top of my pot and ran the ground wire to it and screwed it to the pot with a SS bolt and nut. I also screwed the ground wire to my electrical box on side of pot. I figured this should be pretty well grounded.
 
lustreking said:
I think you could get an electrical junction box, drill a hole the size of the threads, and mount that between your kettle wall and heating element. That should take care of your grounding problem, as well as your strain relief problem. I still think that I'd cover the electrical connections with epoxy though.
Click to expand...
Agreed. What you mention makes sense. It would have to be a metal (conductive) electrical junction box of course.... ;)

Kal
 
Couple things -

You don't need a weldless kit for a water heater element, as least for the type that has a rubber gasket or washer on it already. The rubber gasket should seal it on the outside. I just drilled the hole in the keg and ran the element through, then tightened the nut a little more than hand-tight. I used a brass 1" nut, couldn't source a SS nut locally in Japan. Hasn't leaked or come loose.

Also, I see alot of high-density elements - the elements should be ultra-low density especially for the brew kettle. If they're shiny, they're not low or ultra-low density types. Less risk of scorching wort, but I wonder about scale buildup in HLT use vs high-density.

Third 'cause I can't count, you just feed the wavy element through by turning it 90 degrees a few times. Once you get it in, I'd recommend spreading the element open a bit if just to make cleaning it easier. (Didn't see that one answered.)
-keith
 
I am not using a weldless kit, seems like overkill and more $$$ for nothing. I am using a SS nut, the element and the element seal. I am also sourcing a 5500W RIPP ULWD element for the BK. By the end of January my control panel and everything should be wired and I can get back to brewing!
 
Better than using a liquid epoxy to pot your connections... it is easier to use the JB stick or comparable types of epoxy PUTTY. You can mold it, form it, it will not run or make a mess, and it is ultra strong.
 
Oh, no problem, I didnt take it personally... I was just stating what route I am headed. Thanks for the additional input!
 
Anyone have a good source for small quantities of #10 AWG stranded wire? I can get it at McMaster but it is $30 for 100'... I dont need more than say 10'.
 
Pol; is this BK a 15.5 stainless keggle?
If so why not weld on a stainless plate that is big enough for a two gang Bell box. First drill at hole on one side of the plate large enough to fit over the element nut and in the location of one side or gang of the Bell box. Also drill out the Bell box on that same gang side for the element, nut and terminals to stick thru.Silicone seal the Bell box around the element to retain the water proof Bell box. On the other gang of the Bell box add a flush mounted 30 amp twist lock male plug. This way all you have to do is remove the cord from the bell box, the plug cover is spring loaded and will close. It is foam lined as well the cover to the Bell box hence water proof. With the cord removed your washing of the keg should be rather easy without a power cord and temp probe, simple, clean and best of all grounded.

You first started this thread not wanting any thermocouple at all on your BK just the HLT.

I'm a little lost following this thread as on reply #129
you stated "I am still looking for a jack thermocouple that I can disconnect from the BK otherwise it will be a @&^$ to clean the kettle".

You change your mind more than my daughter she just turned 15 today.
What do you want?????????????

I mentioned a pot mounted on your control panel connected to your PID to control the BK elements temperature for your boil rate as that would totally eliminate any temp probe mounted on the BK with just the power cord to the element to deal with, now the cord can also be removed. Note the starting paragraph above.

Sorry about that one reply I was totally azz backwards on my memory while typing with that # 10 gauge wire thinking it was after the 50 amp breaker not after the 30 amp which was correct and safe. I stated a correction reply on that other thread. I have seen worse than what I replied wondering why more houses have not burned down. My new neighbor found 18 gauge zip cord in the down stairs family room walls for plugs and lighting by a do it yourself remodeler. They got lucky as they used a oil filled portable electric heater of 1,500 watt plus TV on that plug protected by a 20 amp breaker. A big lucky no fire thing. Previous owner was the best hack artist alive.
 
Pol; in your travels there must be electrical supply houses that specilize in liquidation like buying extra electrical materials from the end of large jobs.The contractors can not piss around with partial spools of wire, fittings, pipe, hangers on and on besides it's a write off. I have thrown away #6 to 12 if less than 20' on jobs not alone taken home half spools not long enough for one pull. Someone mentioned cuting apart 10/4 to get the wire out for single runs, that is RW insulation, rubber / wet and lower amperage than better THHN insulated wire that can carry a higher amperage for the same wire gauge. And yes stranded. Rare to run across solid wire that is crap vs stranded. If I went to a shop that only used solid I would ask for my check knowing they are cheap bastards and I would get cheated if given time. You would want SOO cord available at a electrical supply house. SOO cord is oil resistant, thermoset,damp locations and for extra hard use. A person would have to be desperate to even go to those Home Depot, Ace Hardware or other cut throat price places for wire. I can find 5 supply houses within 7 miles from me and a Liquidator under 2 miles in town.
My kind of place where I can find electrical hardware that is 50 years old for replacement if needed plus were on first name bases. On big jobs busted plastic spools that hang up, spools full of azzholes (loops and knots) not worth the time on multi wire pulls, they get tossed, this on 500' spools. Most our wire was on 2,500' spools not 500', when under 350' which was between boxes on one big job it got tossed in the copper fund pile as every pull was longer runs. A Help myself type of shop I would say if I needed 190' from main to my garage help myself. Fixtures on remodels if good for a shop have truck will haul before it goes into the dumpsters. New dented fixture gets chit canned as time is money a write it off. I had it so good on demo jobs if first, grab large hp single phase blower motors then the copper buss between floors.
 
Beemer, you have to first realize that I do not know everything there is to know about building an all electric system. Ask me how to build an electric HERMS and I can do that easily (I have done it). Ask me anything out piloting a jet, and I can answer it (I have done it) This I have never done, I have never used a PID, seen an actual SSR, wired anything from scratch etc. So to make a comment about me constantly changing my mind, is well, a little insensitive when you can clearly see from this thread that I am learning as the thread goes longer. You would have also seen where I was told that I must have a thermocouple, and then I began looking for a liquid tight yet removeable thermocouple so that my keg is not permanently thethered to my stand.

Regarding the Thermocouple... I have not changed my mind really.

I did not want to use one because I was told in error that I did NOT need one for maintaining a boil. THEN I was told that the PID will not operate without having a signal from a thermocouple. That being said, I will install one since then I can actually monitor my temp in the BK as I approach boil and as I am chilling the wort with the PID.

I want one that I can disconnect because of the thermocouple is hard wired to the PID in my control box AND permanently attached to my keg, I cannot even lift my keg! I cannot remove it from the stand for anything, it will be permanently tethered.

The 4' cord for the element power does not personally concern me nearly as much as the thermowell because it can be unplugged from the control box so that I can remove the keg from the stand.

I will look for electrical supply houses here that I may be able to use to source the wiring that I need for my box... thanks for the heads up.
 
keithd said:
You don't need a weldless kit for a water heater element, as least for the type that has a rubber gasket or washer on it already.
Click to expand...

The Pol said:
I am not using a weldless kit, seems like overkill and more $$$ for nothing. I am using a SS nut, the element and the element seal.
Click to expand...

I didn't know that most elements come with seals. Thanks guys! Certainly easier.

Kal
 
Yes, all water heater elements come with fat little seals... glad we can help!
 
Ya, I think they have the 10# stuff but not the 6#

Just to make sure I actaully need the 6# I plan on:

50A GFCI---6/4 wire--->50A range recep--->50A plug---6/4 wire---->Control Box (PID, (2) 4,500 k elements

I should be using the 6# wire for the power side of this right?
 
Yes, with 50A... yes.

I am running ONE element at 23A... so I am building it for 30A... thus the #10 wire
 
Sorry Pol I must of been "insensitive" after reading your different replies not wanting a temp probe then back to wanting a probe on the boil kettle, how was I to know? I posted about a pot mounted on the control panel totally eliminating a probe in the boil kettle that must of not clicked at all. It's your build your the one that has to be pleased when done.
To epoxy fill a splice or connection (reply 145) or JB weld over the wires to the element like reply 176 and solder a handy box extension to a keg like reply 168 are totally against the NEC electrical code besides a handy box extension is not waterproof. Those KO's will leak in water, add a little heat for a hot steamy spice waiting for rust and corrosion inside. Just the facts not being a wise azz. Just don't let an electrical inspector see any of these projects.

Pol, back in 1973 I had a chance to fly across country and back in a Falcon jet, got some hours under my butt, flying it bored me to death after a while. Now friends with a the Stearman (PT17), Howard and another with a Staggerwing Beach that was fun to fly for many years. Tail draggers and radials were my love before I gave it up. Only lasted around six years before I got tired of aviation after working on big birds all the time this killed the joy.
I don't even look up unless it's a radial or a Mustang. Too much noise and smell from the Oakland airport from a winter southern wind.
Hey build your brewery your way ahead of my second build, all I got is a pile of kegs and corny's. Health comes first.
 
BrewBeemer...not trying to start anything, but I couldn't decypher what you were trying to say there. I knew you were saying you could do something so that you wouldn't need a thermocouple, but your description personally left me completely confused. You must keep in mind that Pol...like many of us....are trying to learn about this. That is the whole point of a forum. Pol even stated this point several times. I personally appreciate your, along with everyone elses input.

Pol decided that he had to use a thermocoupler. He stated it in one of the pervious threads, shortly after other posters were stating he would have to have one.

BrewBeemer....in your opinion, what would be better than the epoxy? I personally was thinking about silicon. I figure if you build up enough of it, water getting to the element shouldnt be an issue. Also, silicon doesn't really degrade with time and is resistant to heat.
 

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