Upsizing to 50 gallons BIAB

[OUBrew]

Never posted....just read a lot of threads. Thanks for all the knowledge on here.

I have a Grainfather G70 that I ran several times before I went to BIAB with the unit. I found it easier and more efficient than using the recirc design of the unit.
I am very interested in upsizing to the same type of a set up customizing a 50 gallon design. I would like to avoid HERMS and just heat a single kettle. I believe the G70 has one 5550w element and I can heat 15 gallons to 200 with a starting temp of 60 in under an hour. I just purchased a 75 gallon stainless steel tank that I will customize with a false bottom.

I am curious everyone's throughts on 2 5500 w elements with a PID controller built into the bottom versus two Hellfire Blichman units? The LP route would be much cheaper but I am set up for anything I need to do w electric.

Thoughts?

 

[Bobby_M]

Electric all the way.

 

[OUBrew]

Bobby any recommendations on what I'd need in terms of wattage and elements? Would I need 2 5500w or could I get away w less?

 

[sibelman]

fwiw, Stout Tanks sells their 45 gallon kettle with two element ports.

 

[Bobby_M]

Bobby any recommendations on what I'd need in terms of wattage and elements? Would I need 2 5500w or could I get away w less?

5500 watts will boil about 25 gallons with vigor. Any more volume than that and it's more of a simmer and will take longer than you want it to.

Dual elements anywhere from 4500 to 5500w each will run on a 50 amp breaker. 5500 watts pulls just under 24amps.

 

[OUBrew]

Thank you!!

 

[Bobby_M]

Oh, and you can use a Brew Commander with a relay module added on to control both elements at the same time.

 

[jerrylotto]

(amount of water in kg) • (end temperature in °C – start temperature in °C) • (4168 joules/kg/°C)/(heating power in watts)= heating time in seconds.

 

[sibelman]

So, my arithmetic and @jerrylotto 's formula says that taking 50 gallons from 71°C to 100°C (160°F to 212°F) with 11,000 watts (two 5500W elements) would take about 35 minutes.

 

[deuc224]

Auber instruments makes a type of controller ur looking for. I have one that powers 2 5500 watt elements and is and is a PID, nice little piece of kit.

 

[jerrylotto]

To be precise, you also need to take into account the latent heat of vaporization, 540 calories of energy are required to convert that 1 g of water at 100˚ C to 1 g of water vapor at 100˚ C. If you know your boil off rate, you can figure out how much additional energy is needed to maintain your boil.

 

[OUBrew]

Oh, and you can use a Brew Commander with a relay module added on to control both elements at the same time.

I'll take a look at the Brew Commander. Electric Brewing sent me a recommended PID yesterday. Single PID. Unit supposed to power 2 5500W elements simultaneously. Design looks pretty simple but no wiring diagram. They want $1300 plus $500 for the elements. For that price I'll look at building my own or another option like you mentioned. Thanks again.

 

[sibelman]

@OUBrew , you might check out this link for inspiration on building your own controller. You'd need either a higher powered SSR or two of them. There's also plenty of DIY wisdom available here at HBT, and our own @doug293cz often advises people on such projects.

 

[Ninoid]

Recently, due to significant savings in time and energy, I have started brew 46 liter of wort in one 30 liter pot (BIAB, of course) and it works without problems. I simply brew half the volume with double the amount of grain and hops and then add the other half of the water, divided into two fermenters. In my opinion, the beer is exactly the same as when I brewed it in two separate brews, and it saves on the required pot size, energy, cooling water (although I use the No Chill method) and time. Calculating the water losses during draining and boil, I would need a 60L pot and a twice as of power electric heater (now I have 2000W) to work with the full volume of water. True, if you're making beer with a lot of grain and a high percentage of alcohol this is not the method for you, but I make beers around 5% ABV and this method works just fine.
This idea was inspired by the Brulosophy experiment and I confirm that it works.

 

[OUBrew]

@OUBrew , you might check out this link for inspiration on building your own controller. You'd need either a higher powered SSR or two of them. There's also plenty of DIY wisdom available here at HBT, and our own @doug293cz often advises people on such projects.

Thanks sibelman

 

[Bobby_M]

I'll take a look at the Brew Commander. Electric Brewing sent me a recommended PID yesterday. Single PID. Unit supposed to power 2 5500W elements simultaneously. Design looks pretty simple but no wiring diagram. They want $1300 plus $500 for the elements. For that price I'll look at building my own or another option like you mentioned. Thanks again.

Classic PIDs are so 1985.

Commander: $473 https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/abrewcommander-240v.htm
Relay module $199 https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/abrewcommander-240v-relay.htm
Elements $75 each https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500_ripple_tc.htm

 

[mashdar]

Is boil vigor a square-cube scaling phenomenon? Loss through walls are, and I think boil-off rate is linked to exposed liquid area?

If so, double the heat can boil 2.8x the volume with similar vigor.

So if 5.5kW can boil 25 gallons, 11kw can boil 70 gallons, all else equal. And 1.5kW could boil 6.5 gallons, which feels about right.

Time to change temperature would still be based on volume.

 

[Agent]

If you don't mind me asking, is this for beer, or "spirited" malt extract? Because that's quite a volume desired, and IMO PID grade precision isn't necessary unless you are making beer, or totally in the bag before the mash is over.

 

[apache_brew]

Classic PIDs are so 1985.

Commander: $473 https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/abrewcommander-240v.htm
Relay module $199 https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/abrewcommander-240v-relay.htm
Elements $75 each https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500_ripple_tc.htm

+1 for this setup.

I would add, for about half the price of the Commander, you can go with the “Power Controller” and regulate the power output yourself with a dial. For me, this would be the ideal setup because I don’t bother recirculating while mashing. The only heating I do is to bring my water up to strike temp, kill it during the mash, then dial it back up for the boil.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/aps-powercont-240v.htm

 

[Bobby_M]

+1 for this setup.

I would add, for about half the price of the Commander, you can go with the “Power Controller” and regulate the power output yourself with a dial. For me, this would be the ideal setup because I don’t bother recirculating while mashing. The only heating I do is to bring my water up to strike temp, kill it during the mash, then dial it back up for the boil.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/aps-powercont-240v.htm

I tend not to even bring up the power controller because there is a lot of utility in having a temp probe and temp control even if it's just a wort boil kettle.

1. You can have it hold your wort at a couple degrees below boiling as you're collecting your wort which prevent a boil over situation if you get distracted.
2. You have digital temp feedback during heat up and chill down.
3. If you use the tank at all for heating hot liquor or use it as a BIAB, temp control is very convenient.

I also assume anyone that jumps this deep into the hobby, with a massive kettle, didn't think they were going to do it on an absolute shoestring budget.

 

[doug293cz]

Is boil vigor a square-cube scaling phenomenon? Loss through walls are, and I think boil-off rate is linked to exposed liquid area?

If so, double the heat can boil 2.8x the volume with similar vigor.

So if 5.5kW can boil 25 gallons, 11kw can boil 70 gallons, all else equal. And 1.5kW could boil 6.5 gallons, which feels about right.

Time to change temperature would still be based on volume.

Boil-off rate is determined strictly by the net heat input to the BK. Net heat input is total heat input minus heat losses from kettle surfaces. For equal net heat input, boil-off rate is the same independent of liquid volume, and liquid surface area.

In the case of equal boil-off rate (and equal net heat input) the boil vigor in a BK with smaller cross section area will appear to be more vigorous than for a BK with a larger cross section area. This is due to having more or less surface area from which the steam escapes.

Kettle size and shape, presence of any insulation, and to a lesser extent liquid volume, will affect the actual heat loss from the kettle surfaces. So, for a given total heat input, you can have varying amounts of net heat input depending on the variable losses.

Brew on

 

[mashdar]

Boil-off rate is determined strictly by the net heat input to the BK.

I should have said "desired boil-off rate", i.e. based on apparent vigor. I imagine that's close to proportional to area?
But that's just a guess; I could see compounding pressure effects (steam temperature and bubble volume effects during rise) being significant.

But yeah, "all else equal" is doing a lot of work! I wonder what the design criteria are for large kettles.

 

[doug293cz]

I should have said "desired boil-off rate", i.e. based on apparent vigor. I imagine that's close to proportional to area?

No.

It's all about the energy (heat) balance in the system. Liquid surface area has a very small effect on this. I don't think you understood my previous post at all.

All heat that does not get lost to radiation, conduction or convection from the kettle surfaces causes boil-off (once boiling temp is reached.) Boil-off is proportional to this "excess" heat.

Brew on

 

[mashdar]

No.

It's all about the energy (heat) balance in the system. Liquid surface area has a very small effect on this. I don't think you understood my previous post at all.

All heat that does not get lost to radiation, conduction or convection from the kettle surfaces causes boil-off (once boiling temp is reached.) Boil-off is proportional to this "excess" heat.

Brew on

I understand that. But regarding ideal boil for brewing, is the goal a certain rate (in water mass per time) per volume, or rate per unit liquid surface area?

It seems a given rate in a "fat" kettle might be too volatile for a "skinny" kettle with a similar volume.

If I am managing a boil, I look at surface activity as a proxy for whatever magic the boil is doing. That's probably reasonable for processes relying on turbulence, but maybe not for extraction (removal) of volatiles.

The naive view would be that heat to maintain a given level of surface activity scales with surface area.

I don't deal with large volumes, though; maybe keeping a boil-off proportional to volume is important. It's not obvious to me that it is.

edit: also I think we're talking past each other, as I'm talking about heat input as a variable, and you are talking about it as a constant. (I'm discussing how to select an element for a given system, and how the desired element scales with volume. I'm not assuming that desired boil off rate per volume is fixed as vessel size changes.)

 

[jerrylotto]

Only if there is condensation on the sides returning to the pot.

 

[mashdar]

Do people doing a 500 gallon boil boil off 75 gallons? That would resemble 1 gallon in 6.5, 15%. I guess this is the sort of thing that is known by multitudes. I see references to 2% boil off on a quick google, but I'm way out of my depth.

Reading some more, there's energy recovery on those, and that's a "gentle boil" rate. 4-8% is more common? Idk