3500W, 4500W or 5500W

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The Pol said:
Well if I cannot split it across (2) SSRs... you are telling me that I will always have current at my heating element? Meaning it will always be heating? Re-Read my post...

Since I cannot, tell me what exactly will be happening with my element when it has one hot leg at all times when my BK is empty... using one SSR.
Click to expand...

2 SSRs are not overkill, but not required either. With one SSR, you are only breaking one leg of the heater. You will always have VOLTAGE at the heater, but not current. The heater will be off when the SSR is off, but you will have to know and remember that there is still voltage on the heater as long as the equipment is energized.
Same principal as when some inept electrician mis-wires a light in the house and puts the switch in the neutral leg. Turn the switch off and the light goes off as expected. But change out the bulb and stick your finger in the socket, it will still eat you for lunch!
Operationally, 1 SSR is fine as long as your connections are well insulated. Just remember, NEVER WORK ON THE HEATER WITH POWERCONNECTED BECAUSE ONE LEG WILL ALWAYS BE HOT!
 
That makes sense... sounds "ok". I plan to ONLY have this thing plugged in and energized when I am brewing, I would never, ever have 220V or 240V running into this control box and perform any sort of maintenance.

So, one hot coming into the box will go directly to the 50A outlet on the box that the element will plug into. One hot will go into, and out of the SSR, to the 50A outlet. The PID will have its own 110-120V hot and a neutral and will have its output directed to the SSR.

In a BK, is a thermocouple needed for the PID since I will only be using it in manal mode? Id think not, but I have not seen, or used a PID.
 
bull8042 said:
2 SSRs are not overkill, but not required either. With one SSR, you are only breaking one leg of the heater. You will always have VOLTAGE at the heater, but not current. The heater will be off when the SSR is off, but you will have to know and remember that there is still voltage on the heater as long as the equipment is energized.
Same principal as when some inept electrician mis-wires a light in the house and puts the switch in the neutral leg. Turn the switch off and the light goes off as expected. But change out the bulb and stick your finger in the socket, it will still eat you for lunch!
Operationally, 1 SSR is fine as long as your connections are well insulated. Just remember, NEVER WORK ON THE HEATER WITH POWERCONNECTED BECAUSE ONE LEG WILL ALWAYS BE HOT!
Click to expand...

It seems that for the price of an additional SSR, it would be money well spent to make sure the element is never hot when the SSR's aren't on.
 
sigmund said:
It seems that for the price of an additional SSR, it would be money well spent to make sure the element is never hot when the SSR's aren't on.
Click to expand...

That's why I have the DPST switch. It opens/closes both legs of the 240 circuit. When I'm done with the HLT, I turn it off at the switch, not on the PID. The PID is cycling the element on/off anyway, so I assume if the switch is on, the element is hot. I would not rely only on the PID/SSR to kill the power. The switch makes me much more comfortable. I got the kind you can lock-out (with a physical lock) as well.

I have 1 SSR per element. And each circuit has a kill switch. This was the cheap and easy and safe way to do it. I also have a disconnect on the back that I can pull. My main panel is only 20 feet or so away, and I can kill the 50A circuit easily as well.

I do use both elements at once. After collecting my first runnings, I set my BK to about 200 so it can get near boiling as I batch sparge. Not a big deal, but saves a few minutes or so.
 
So you have a DPST that handles 240V at say 24A?
 
sigmund said:
It seems that for the price of an additional SSR, it would be money well spent to make sure the element is never hot when the SSR's aren't on.
Click to expand...

The element will not be "hot" when the SSR is off. I am not sure if you meant hot as in heat or hot as in voltage present.
There is no way the heater can come on when one leg is broken unless the leg wired to the SSR becomes grounded and provides a completed circuit. Functionally, it is fine. As long as the user/operator knows that voltage is still present when the unit is powered and all connections are properly wired to be "touch-safe", then the safety aspect is effectively removed.
The aforementioned connection is perfectly acceptable even in a machine built to NFPA specs.
 
bakins said:
That's why I have the DPST switch. It opens/closes both legs of the 240 circuit. When I'm done with the HLT, I turn it off at the switch, not on the PID. The PID is cycling the element on/off anyway, so I assume if the switch is on, the element is hot. I would not rely only on the PID/SSR to kill the power. The switch makes me much more comfortable. I got the kind you can lock-out (with a physical lock) as well.

I have 1 SSR per element. And each circuit has a kill switch. This was the cheap and easy and safe way to do it. I also have a disconnect on the back that I can pull. My main panel is only 20 feet or so away, and I can kill the 50A circuit easily as well.

I do use both elements at once. After collecting my first runnings, I set my BK to about 200 so it can get near boiling as I batch sparge. Not a big deal, but saves a few minutes or so.
Click to expand...

bakins -

Do you have any pictures? I'm going to follow the diagram you posted earlier as well but some visual guidance would really help. thxs
 
Off hand I cannot find a DPST switch that is rated for more than 20A @ 120V and 10A @ 240V... where did you pick up that DPST switch?
 
Wont work, those are all DC SSRs, we need AC output.
 
Pol:
You are right that you don't need a thermocouple in the BK unless you want it for the convenience of preventing boilovers as described by Bakins.

I also control only one hot leg with the SSR. However, I do use a 30 amp DPST switch to have on/off control of both hot legs. Here is the switch I used. I think I bought it a Menards.

Leviton 3032-2I 30 Amp Double-Pole Toggle Switch Industrial - Ivory
 
Thanks Steve... so you have both hots that are going to your element (or receptacle) going through that DPST so that you can turn them off no matter what the PID is doing... nice, thanks.
 
It seems like there is no GOOD way to do any of this... I mean, any way you do any of this there is a risk. Switch, no switch... Like I said, I am not going to be messing with the element and connections with the control box humming with 240V anyway. I am also going to pot my element connections in a solid block of epoxy to seal them from the elements, and myself.
 
I wired in a 240V 30A circuit, I am using a 5500W ULWD RIPP element on a three wire, three prong cord.
 
stevehaun said:
Virtuous:
"Something is wrong with that GFCI then and I would have it checked. What that GFCI should be doing is monitoring current leaving L1 and then returning through L2 and vice versa depending on phase. if there is a difference of approx 4ma between the two it should trip. If you pull one of the lines off the gfci and run it to a 110 device with a neutral you have created a current imbalance between L1 and L2 and it should trip. Thats if your run the 110 device AFTER the gfci of course, if it is on the supply side it doesn't matter."

Perhaps I am confused (very likely). I have 50 amp 120/240 VAC Square D Homeline GFCI breaker in my load center. From this is wired a 4 prong, 50 amp, 240 vac outlet. I have a 50 amp power cord that runs to my enclosure containing my power distribution block. From this distribution block my two hot leads are divided to power two 4500 watt elements using 240 vac and a pump and pid using 120 vac (using one hot limb). My understanding of a 120/240 vac GFCI is that it detects diffferences in current between the hot leads and the neutral lead. If the difference is greater than 5 milliamps, it trips. The way my unit is wired, the algebraic sum of the current from the hot leads should equal that in the neutral unless I have an inappropriate connection to ground. I am not sure why you think my GFI should trip.

I am far from an expert on these matters. However, I had my plans and my system checked by a friend who is both an electrical engineer and a licensed electrician. I have been using it for two years without a problem. All that said, I really don't want to get electricuted.
Click to expand...

I don't think Virtuous realizes that a 120/240 volt GFCI breaker has a neutral connection built into the breaker.....so yes it does work as you stated.
 
Found this with the P/N in the title:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/51940333/Temperature_Controller_CD101_.html

Main feature:
1. Input signal: Thermocouple: K, E, S, B, J, T, R, N thermal resistance: Pt100, Cu100, Cu50, BA2, BA1, GPt100 mini measure remote sending manometer: 0~400ohm linear signal: 0~20mV, 0~75mv, 0~200mV, 0~5V, 1~5V, 0~10mA, 4~20mA frequency 0~10KHz
2. Accuracy: +/-0. 5%F. S +/-1 word
3. Control way: Fuzzy PID control, states control, manual control
4. Control output: Relay contact point: AC250V 3A (resistance) logical voltage DC 0. 5V. Start pulse over zero: Optical couple control silicon output 1A 600V start pulse on transport: Optical couple control silicon 1 A 600V, 0~10mA, 0~20mA current output (below load resistance 600 ohms)
5. Alarm type: High limit alarm, low limit alarm, upper high limit alarm, below low limit alarm
6. Transmitter output: 0~10mA, 4~20mA, 0~5V, 1~5V
8. Power output: DC24V(used in double line transmitter)
9. Working power: AC220V+/-10%, 50/60Hz, AC85~264V 50/60Hz
10. Outline dimension: 48 x 48x 100mm(or 48 x 48 x 65)(width x height x depth)
11. Install dimension: 45 x 45mm
 
bull8042 said:
2 SSRs are not overkill, but not required either. With one SSR, you are only breaking one leg of the heater. You will always have VOLTAGE at the heater, but not current.


Same principal as when some inept electrician mis-wires a light in the house and puts the switch in the neutral leg. Turn the switch off and the light goes off as expected. But change out the bulb and stick your finger in the socket, it will still eat you for lunch! Just remember, NEVER WORK ON THE HEATER WITH POWERCONNECTED BECAUSE ONE LEG WILL ALWAYS BE HOT!
Click to expand...

No worries or problems bull8042 I also respect you replies. I'm in the same room as you, a just retired union IBEW electrician mostly industrial and commercial. 30 year pin next week. I must admit us wiremen and EE's have had disagreements on what is on the blueprints vs installing items which is a reality thing on the job sites. At times an EE's idea will not work or fit as designed.

I must correct you on one item above, many years ago up to app the early 1920's era or before they did switch the neutral. Yes the center of the socket was hot all the time.
I ran across this in an old 1898 house that was converted to electric when it became available way back then years ago plus it still had the old gas lines in the attic. I was working during the summer in the hot attic sweating away dripping in my glasses laying across gas pipes cutting wires with my side cutters then wow a damn big surprise. Across my arm and body and out thru my little friend down low. I got a big buzz as that was the best ground you can find a gas pipe.
They also had plugs hot on the right not left slot back then.
Nuff said, lets keep driving Pol crazy, J/K.
 
BrewBeemer said:
No worries or problems bull8042 I also respect you replies. I'm in the same room as you, a just retired union IBEW electrician mostly industrial and commercial. 30 year pin next week. I must admit us wiremen and EE's have had disagreements on what is on the blueprints vs installing items which is a reality thing on the job sites. At times an EE's idea will not work or fit as designed.

I must correct you on one item above, many years ago up to app the early 1920's era or before they did switch the neutral. Yes the center of the socket was hot all the time.
I ran across this in an old 1898 house that was converted to electric when it became available way back then years ago plus it still had the old gas lines in the attic. I was working during the summer in the hot attic sweating away dripping in my glasses laying across gas pipes cutting wires with my side cutters then wow a damn big surprise. Across my arm and body and out thru my little friend down low. I got a big buzz as that was the best ground you can find a gas pipe.
They also had plugs hot on the right not left slot back then.
Nuff said, lets keep driving Pol crazy, J/K.
Click to expand...

Hats off to you sir. 30 years is quite remarkable. Of course, I would have thought in all that time you would have figured out that the EE is always right! :D
Until you posted that, I had forgotten the stories I had heard about some of the "old" wiring techniques. Some of that stuff is pretty scary, to say the least. My utmost sympathies go out to "your little friend" too!
I think The Pol has been inundated with plenty of information to digest today. That should keep him out of trouble for awhile. ;)
 
bull8042 said:
KSR3.80
This will cover you with no problem and is rated for switching a real load.
Please stay away from the residential stuff with a project like this....
Click to expand...

That's a great find item as well price.
With this only one PID is required with a manual control on it,
switch the 240 volt power from your HLT to the boil kettle after the SSR's or a SSRD.
You also need to add a small DPDT switch to switch the temp probes
from the MLT to boil kettle back to PID for your heat control.
 
BrewBeemer said:
That's a great find item as well price.
With this only one PID is required with a manual control on it,
switch the 240 volt power from your HLT to the boil kettle after the SSR's or a SSRD.
You also need to add a small DPDT switch to switch the temp probes
from the MLT to boil kettle back to PID for your heat control.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I love that place. The prices are really good, granted everything is made overseas. But unless you want to fork out $500 for a flange-mount disc from AB, it is a great way to go.
Good advice by the way. I hadn't thought about switching the temp probes and sharing the controller.
 
bull8042 said:
Found this with the P/N in the title:

Temperature Controller (CD101)

Main feature:
1. Input signal: Thermocouple: K, E, S, B, J, T, R, N thermal resistance: Pt100, Cu100, Cu50, BA2, BA1, GPt100 mini measure remote sending manometer: 0~400ohm linear signal: 0~20mV, 0~75mv, 0~200mV, 0~5V, 1~5V, 0~10mA, 4~20mA frequency 0~10KHz
2. Accuracy: +/-0. 5%F. S +/-1 word
3. Control way: Fuzzy PID control, states control, manual control
4. Control output: Relay contact point: AC250V 3A (resistance) logical voltage DC 0. 5V. Start pulse over zero: Optical couple control silicon output 1A 600V start pulse on transport: Optical couple control silicon 1 A 600V, 0~10mA, 0~20mA current output (below load resistance 600 ohms)
5. Alarm type: High limit alarm, low limit alarm, upper high limit alarm, below low limit alarm
6. Transmitter output: 0~10mA, 4~20mA, 0~5V, 1~5V
8. Power output: DC24V(used in double line transmitter)
9. Working power: AC220V+/-10%, 50/60Hz, AC85~264V 50/60Hz
10. Outline dimension: 48 x 48x 100mm(or 48 x 48 x 65)(width x height x depth)
11. Install dimension: 45 x 45mm
Click to expand...

bull8042; I did not see any price for that PID unless I missed it?
I see about everything now comes from China especially in the electronics field. UL approved? BTW before a wireman a licensed A&P mechanic, 75 gas war got me in late 76 hence a job change.

I believe it was Pol or one other member that mentioned why go big with a 40 amp SSR vs 25 amp with a element that draws around 23 amps, (SSRD if it were me or two SSR's). To run a SSR near it's maximum rating will generate a lot of heat, better to have the SSR of 40 amp switching at half its maximum rated output. This will produce less SSR heat. Heat kills elecrtonics including SSR's. Also go with a larger heat sink if possible and mount it outside the box. I would add a small computer fan as any air movement will make a major temp drop of the heat sink and SSR's or SSRD. Heat potting compound is also needed. This is a repeat I believe I have posted in this thread already.
 
BrewBeemer said:
bull8042; I did not see any price for that PID unless I missed it?
I see about everything now comes from China especially in the electronics field. UL approved? BTW before a wireman a licensed A&P mechanic, 75 gas war got me in late 76 hence a job change.
Click to expand...

That reply was for The Pol's link a couple posts above it. I think he found one of those on eBay.
I would personally go with the Omega for $97 (http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=CN7500). It has all of the bells and whistles, and even RS485 so you can adjust and monitor the controller via PC.
That is some pretty good experience you have there. Maybe I need to talk you into coming over to build my rig for me! :D
 
I will not have a single thermocouple on my PID probably.
My HLT is already controlled and switched with a JC419 controller. (1500W heater)
I will only be using the PID for switching the SSR for the RIPP 5500W ULWD element in the kettle... phew! I have learned A LOT in a few days here guys, thanks so much for all of the info!!!!
I cannot wait to get this up and running and get some pics for yall to see what you have helped me build! Good thing we are getting Holiday Bonuses at the airline this year, I need to defer a couple hundred $$$$ to my projects.

EDIT: I have a bunch of left over diamond plate from my last upgrade, so I will be ditching the propane burner stand and sitting my BK on a nice diamond plate shelf.

I think I am getting my PID and SSR+Heat Sink from Auberins... the PID is $45, SSR is $20 as well as the heat sink.
 
The Pol said:
I will not have a single thermocouple on my PID probably.
My HLT is already controlled and switched with a JC419 controller. (1500W heater)
I will only be using the PID for switching the SSr for the RIPP 5500W ULWD element in the kettle... phew! I have learned A LOT in a few days here guys, thanks so much for all of the info!!!!
I cannot wait to get this up and running and get some pics for yall to see what you have helped me build! Good thing we are getting Holiday Bonuses at the airline this year, I need to defer a couple hundred $$$$ to my projects.
Click to expand...

I doubt very seriously you can use a controller without a TC connected. It will fault out on an open sensor connection. Plus, no TC, no temp display. Therefore, why not just use a toggle switch on your SSR and save the cost of the controller?
 
How would not using a TC ammount to just using a toggle? I dont necessarily care the temp of the wort, I care that there is a rolling boil, whether that is at 205F or 207F. I will have to adjust the PID manually anyway, I think, to roll back the power to maintain the correct boil. If I have to use a TC, I will, others have mentioned not using one at all.
 
bull8042:

I would be careful with that switch. The contact rating looks like is 24A, but you are switching a heater which is purely inductive with a big inrush. I would seriously consider the contacts ability to handle the load if the SSR is on when the switch is opened or closed.
The ratings state 2HP-240V-277V for a motor which is also an inductive load.

hp x 746
E x %Eff x pf

equates to 6.78A at 100% efficiency and a power factor of 1. Your heater element is not that efficient, so the current capacity would be less.
Click to expand...

Isn't an electric heating element a resistive load? I use this switch on a 4500 watt element which would pull less than 21 amps. The max amperage rating of the switch is 24 amps. I understand why it would not be adequate for a 5500 watt element. Wouldn't it be safe for a 4500 watt element?
 
I understand what you want, but all of the controllers I have used in the past will fault out and disable the output if an open condition is detected on the sensor input. It is a failsafe feature.
My experience with "manual control" amounts to just manually turning the output on or off, but does not do anything else with regards to the control. Therefore, it is the same as a toggle switch.
My point was that, if the controller will let you do anything without a sensor attached, it will still just be the same a toggle switch.
 
What sort of thermocouples are you using? The ones I see are screw in types and then I cannot move my BK. How do you have your thermocouple set up.
 
stevehaun said:
bull8042:



Isn't an electric heating element a resistive load? I use this switch on a 4500 watt element which would pull less than 21 amps. The max amperage rating of the switch is 24 amps. I understand why it would not be adequate for a 5500 watt element. Wouldn't it be safe for a 4500 watt element?
Click to expand...

A CRAP! You are right. I was typing and thinking fast because I was late for a project meeting. :mad:
I will blow away that post before it confuses someone else.
Good catch!
 

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