3500W, 4500W or 5500W

[bmarley5780]

Ha! That PDF of the coffe urn even has a wiring diagram that includes a contactor...

 

[CodeRage]

Regarding the rehostat question. Stove top elements run around 1500W. A 3500W+ element would roast that rheostat. To find a rheostat the would support that kind of power would be very expensive, not to mention very inefficient. For small 1500W Water Heater elements it's probably not a bad idea. Not the way I would do it though. The nice thing with relays or SSRs is you can keep all of the high voltage high current stuff tucked away safely and then use low voltage low current for all of your interface controls. GFCIs should make this moot but I always prefer to make the system as safe as possible. I'm not bagging on any one. I admire resourcefullness via re-puroposing and encourage it. Electricity can be a cruel ***** when you are working with this kind of power so caution should supersede thrift. I don't want to see any one get hurt

 

[The Pol]

Even a 1500W rheostat is like 100-200 bucks. Then, you will have to have what 3 of them for a 7.5 gallon boil

 

[stevehaun]

Virtuous:
"You cant run power from a 220 GFCI and then split it into 110 because the current returning through the neutral will cause the GFCI to pop. So all of the breakers need to be wired in parallel."

This is exactly how my brewery is set up. I have one 50 amp, 240 VAC GFI breaker in my load center. I run the power thru a single (very large) power cord to an enclosure on my brewframe. I have power distribution block for my 2 hot limbs and my neutral limb. I have a separate grounding block. I run my two 4500 watt elements on 240 VAC and my pump and PID on 120VAC (from one of the hot limbs). I have used it for two seasons and never tripped the GFI. I think this is way any appliance that uses both 240 VAC and 120 VAC (dryer or stove) is wired.

Pol:
I use a PID and SSR to control the elements in my BK. I simply put it in manual mode at 100% power until the boil starts and then ramp back the % power until I can maintain a nice rolling boil.

 

[The Pol]

SO, do you have 3 distribution blocks? 1 for each HOT leg and 1 for the neutrals? Then you simply run both hot legs to run the elements, and ONE leg to run the 120v pumps etc?

 

[sigmund]

Regarding the rehostat question. Stove top elements run around 1500W. A 3500W+ element would roast that rheostat.

Actually, stove top elements run higher than that and the infinite heat switches (not my name for them) that are used to control them are usually rated for 15 amps which would control a 3500 watt element.

Universal infinite heat switch

 

[lustreking]

Actually, stove top elements run higher than that and the infinite heat switches (not my name for them) that are used to control them are usually rated for 15 amps which would control a 3500 watt element.

Universal infinite heat switch

I'm not entirely sure how an infinite switch works, but could I use one from a stove to control a 1500W 120V element?

 

[stevehaun]

Pol:
I do have a 3 pole power distribution block. Each pole accepts one line and can then distribute to 6 different lines. You can buy many different combinations. See below:

http://www.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/4ae36753-c01a-49dd-bbc8-0beb365c0869.pdf

My power cord has 4 wires - 2 hot (red & black), 1 neutral (white) and ground (green). The power cord enters the enclosure and the 2 hots and neutral wires are hooked up to my 3 pole power distribution block. The ground wire hooks up to a separate grounding block. From the power distribution block, I then "distribute" wires as needed. For 240 VAC elements I run two hots. For the 120 VAC components such as my pump and PID, I run one hot and a neutral. Everything that can possibly be grounded, is grounded.

 

[SenorWanderer]

Pol:
I use a PID and SSR to control the elements in my BK. I simply put it in manual mode at 100% power until the boil starts and then ramp back the % power until I can maintain a nice rolling boil.

i didn't know that a PID would function like that. now i understand why it's the clear choice for this application!

 

[brewjunky]

3500 watt would be the best because 4500 will over boil 10 gallons with out a PID.

I would even go 3000 watts.

Thats if your running 240v

 

[The Pol]

Pol:
I do have a 3 pole power distribution block. Each pole accepts one line and can then distribute to 6 different lines. You can buy many different combinations. See below:

http://www.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/4ae36753-c01a-49dd-bbc8-0beb365c0869.pdf

My power cord has 4 wires - 2 hot (red & black), 1 neutral (white) and ground (green). The power cord enters the enclosure and the 2 hots and neutral wires are hooked up to my 3 pole power distribution block. The ground wire hooks up to a separate grounding block. From the power distribution block, I then "distribute" wires as needed. For 240 VAC elements I run two hots. For the 120 VAC components such as my pump and PID, I run one hot and a neutral. Everything that can possibly be grounded, is grounded.

That is sweet, that I can understand. I have been drawing up how I would divide my juice using distribution blocks.

Tell me, when using a PID and SSR for the 6500W element, will it go like this....

(2) hots running to the SSR and out to the element
(1) hot and (1) neutral running to the PID for control power
??????

 

[bakins]

(2) hots running to the SSR and out to the element
(1) hot and (1) neutral running to the PID for control power
??????

The way mine is wired is:
Subpanel:
Circuit #1 30A 240V - 1 hot to element, 1 hot to ssr. (element and pot grounded, of course). I use a DPST (dual pole, single throw) that can open/close both hots if needed. Quick boil-over protection, done with that pot, etc.
Circuit #2 - same as #1 to another pot.
Circuit #3 - 15A 120V - powers PID's (1 hot, 1 neutral) pumps etc.

Study. alot. I had just wired my basement (with a little guidance) that involved some 240V stuff. I read for about 2 months before I did it. (First task was adding a subpanel - hardest part was my first task).

It's not hard, you just need to be doubly sure about it.

Here's a thread with a good diagram:

My electric sculpture plans.. please help - BrewBoard

 

[The Pol]

This is all helping A LOT! I was unsure as to how power was routed to the SSR and element.
I am installing a single throw, dual pole 40A breaker... Looks like I will be using a low density 5500W element as I cannot find a 6500W that is low density. Meaning that I can get by with the 25A SSR and heat sink.
Using the distribution block also makes the wiring inside the box much easier.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Pol - go with the 40A SSR. It is very little extra.

That 25A will be at 85% of max, generating a lot of heat. Heat is not a friend to an SSR.

 

[The Pol]

Pol - go with the 40A SSR. It is very little extra.

That 25A will be at 85% of max, generating a lot of heat. Heat is not a friend to an SSR.

Even with a heatsink? Either way, yeah it is only like $15 more to get a 40A SSR and heat sink.

 

[stevehaun]

POL:
Like Bakins, I run one hot directly to the element and the other hot is switched by the SSR. I also recommend going with a 40 or 50 amp SSR - I remember reading somewhere (Crydom or Omega website??) to go bigger with the SSR. Definitely use a heatsink.
I also have double pole, single throw 30 amp switch to control both hot limbs going to the element. You will definitely want them to prevent boil overs and it is also a good safety feature.
One thing I did to save money was to use the same electronics to control both the HLT and BK. I don't use them at the same time so it did not make sense to make a separate system for both. I simply wired an outlet on my enclosure and plug in either the HLT or the BK.

 

[The Pol]

My HLT is 120V... the BK will be 240V. I am going to set this up so that on the back of my box there will be outlets (3) for each item that is controlled from the box.
Basically my 5500W element will plug into the back with a 4 wire dryer cord. My Pump will plug into a 120V receptacle, same with my 1500W HLT element and stirrer....
THIS way I can unplug my kettle and other components when they have to be removed and cleaned etc.

My PID will have a switch to power it on...
My Pump will have a switch to power its receptacle
My Stirrer and JC419 receptacle will have a switch as well

 

[bakins]

you only want/need 3 wire plugs for the 240V stuff. You don't want to bound neutral to ground. Just run the 2 hots to the element and ground the pot.

Here's my setup:
The Northern Brewer Homebrew Forum • View topic - An extract brew on my electric rig

In this image, you can see the box on the pot. This has the element and that's a 3 wire dryer cord going into it. Just below the handle, that screw holds the ground wire in contact with pot. That ground wire runs to the box and is attached to the box and to the ground wire in the dryer plug.

 

[CodeRage]

Virtuous:
"You cant run power from a 220 GFCI and then split it into 110 because the current returning through the neutral will cause the GFCI to pop. So all of the breakers need to be wired in parallel."

This is exactly how my brewery is set up. I have one 50 amp, 240 VAC GFI breaker in my load center. I run the power thru a single (very large) power cord to an enclosure on my brewframe. I have power distribution block for my 2 hot limbs and my neutral limb. I have a separate grounding block. I run my two 4500 watt elements on 240 VAC and my pump and PID on 120VAC (from one of the hot limbs). I have used it for two seasons and never tripped the GFI. I think this is way any appliance that uses both 240 VAC and 120 VAC (dryer or stove) is wired.

Pol:
I use a PID and SSR to control the elements in my BK. I simply put it in manual mode at 100% power until the boil starts and then ramp back the % power until I can maintain a nice rolling boil.

Something is wrong with that GFCI then and I would have it checked. What that GFCI should be doing is monitoring current leaving L1 and then returning through L2 and vice versa depending on phase. if there is a difference of approx 4ma between the two it should trip. If you pull one of the lines off the gfci and run it to a 110 device with a neutral you have created a current imbalance between L1 and L2 and it should trip. Thats if your run the 110 device AFTER the gfci of course, if it is on the supply side it doesn't matter.

Actually, stove top elements run higher than that and the infinite heat switches (not my name for them) that are used to control them are usually rated for 15 amps which would control a 3500 watt element.

Hey thats cool, but it puts you at 3600W max, which is pretty close to the 3500W element. I wouldnt recommend them. Plus if he wants to expand he cant use it.

I use 2 SSRs on both sides of the 240 element. I dont like to leave voltage hanging around when it isnt needed, specially in this type of environment.

Get the largest SSR you can afford, These will have the least on/transition resistance at the junction which will create less heat. Very important if you plan to do any kind of fast switching. Bigger the heat sink the better too.

With that said. I use a 25A cause I am happy with my 4500W element and it puts me below %80 utilization. I use 3 of these, 2 for my 220V element and 1 for my 110V element. AD-SSR225-DC Products
Din rail makes it look nice and it is easy to change things.

I am trying to find a dedicated panel mount duty cycle controller for yah but not having much luck.

 

[The Pol]

Thanks, yeah, a dedicated duty cycle controller would be ideal...

 

[BrewBeemer]

I really dont think that I can accomplish building an E-keggle... I can fly a plane, but this stuff is way out of my league. Wiring a PID, to an SSR and programming it to modulate duty cycles etc... what the heck.

Pol; sorry I had to LMAO on your above reply, pilot mechanic thing you know what i'm talking about. I'm an 'ex licensed A&P had both by 21 but got out of aviation back in 76 when United had massive layoffs. That was a bad era for aviation back then. I played with big planes and engines not general avaition (it was trouble, crap and low pay) back then except the Stearman's (3) my friend had for pulling banners. I had one flaw I purchased a complete which was rare kit back then the 70 hp BD-5 B long wing. On the Stearman's it was Damn cold in those things over the S.F. bay area as I few it many times once upstairs. I made and welded up six 4130 5 point grapneling hooks to snag the banners. Kind of trick how it's done lifting banners off the deck. Became a union electrician in 77 and now retired nuff said.

Back to topic at hand;

After looking at that 555 timer unit which is trick I must add, power supply and everything that goes with it posted above why not make it simple and use a PID that has the manual control feature, add the next oversize in amps the SSRD and heat sink need to be for long life and be done with it? Clean and simple. Not those cheap PID's that have no manual control feature so look out before purchasing. Call around or email different manufactures they will gladly tell you what model works best for our type of use. Brand is your choice like the chebbie Ford thing. This way you can fine tune the elements output from 0-100% time on control for your boils. PID units come with wiring instructions i'm sure manufactures want their products to be easy to wire in the field and program. If not their competition would have a bigger part of the market.
I recall as I type that 6,500 watts was mentioned? Be careful about having any scorching problems. I would only use ULD elements. JMO's.

 

[The Pol]

Yeah, I wont use anything unless it is ULD, and as I stated previously, I cannot find a single 6500W ULD anywhere.
I would love to be able to throw this thing together in short time, but that will not be happenin'. A few things I have resolved to do:

Use a PID, no wiring my own circuit boards
Get a 40A SSR and Heat Sink, not a 25A
Get the largest ULD element I can find (5500W or so)
Diamond plate the face of the control panel.
The back of the panel will have outlets so that my accessories can plug in (duh, dont want to hard wire my electric vessels to the stand)

I have, seriously about 6 months or more of beer on hand. This little electrical redesign will cost me about 2 months of work as I see it... so as much as I would like to have it done and running like tomorrow, I will be patient.
Every time I upgrade my system I tell SWMBO "there is nothing more I can do to this rig now, it is DONE!" Keep in mind I said that when it was a 10 gallon cooler gravity only system... now it will be an all electric controlled HERMS. Needless to say she doesn't beleive a thing I am saying to her anymore!
I look at it this way, someday I will hand this thing down to my kids, by then who knows what it will be like! I would have loved to have inherited some cool machine that makes alcohol in the comfort of my garage from my dad.

Anyway, keep the ideas and info coming, I need all the help that I can get on this re-design. Between this and painting the house, I am in for a busy winter. I will gladly share a pint with anyone that is in the area, the Holiday Spiced Ale is on tap and flowing freely!

Pol

 

[IrregularPulse]

Painting the house in the winter??!!! In Indiana?

 

[The Pol]

The house is under a year old... painting the interior...

Outside

Inside (accent wall)

 

[bull8042]

3500 watt would be the best because 4500 will over boil 10 gallons with out a PID.

I would even go 3000 watts.

Thats if your running 240v

3000W is 3000W whether you are supplying 220VAC or 110VAC.... or 12VDC for that matter. The only change is the current required from the supply. Power (W) = Voltage X Current. As your voltage decreases, your current has to increase to provide the same power output.
Keeping in mind that you cannot use a heater rated for 220VAC and run it on 110VAC and expect the same power out. Doesn't work like that....
Also, you don't have to have a PID to control the boil. A regular ol' Ranco, Love, or other ON/OFF controller is perfectly sufficient. A PID would be much more useful in a closed loop process like maintaining temps in the HLT of a RIMS or HERMS system.
You do need a controller for the boil so you don't scorch the wort, more important as the heater size vs boil volume increases. But, it is not necessary that it be a PID.

 

[The Pol]

Can a Ranco switch 240V at say 23A? I thought most were limited to 120v at 16A. In that case you still need an SSR and a PID is cheaper than buying a JC419 or a Ranco. The LOVE controllers to my knowlege are also incapable of switching on/off 240v at 23A...

I think that the quote that you responded to was referring to the fact that you will not find a 3000W 120V element, so I would have to go 240V to do it... In fact I cannot find an element over 5500W that is ULWD... so that seems to be my limit for element size.

 

[bull8042]

Can a Ranco switch 240V at say 23A? I thought most were limited to 120v at 16A. In that case you still need an SSR and a PID is cheaper than buying a JC419 or a Ranco. The LOVE controllers to my knowlege are also incapable of switching on/off 240v at 23A...

I think that the quote that you responded to was referring to the fact that you will not find a 3000W 120V element, so I would have to go 240V to do it... In fact I cannot find an element over 5500W that is ULWD... so that seems to be my limit for element size.

OK, maybe my clarification was a bit muddled... I would not switch any load directly with any controller, regardless of it's ratings. This is simply because if your load takes a dump for some reason, it doesn't take your controller output with it. The controller merely switches the control signal for an SSR or relay. I would also use an SSR instead of a relay simply because relays are mechanical and will wear out over time, and with high inductive loads associated with heaters you have arcing of the contacts to deal with.
I chimed in here because some of the advice was beginning to be a bit on the fringe.
Here is what I would recommend:
Omega controller that is selectable between ON/OFF and PID - 1/32 DIN Ramp/Soak Controllers
SSR 50A with zero-crossing switching - Solid state relays, ssr, and scr relay i/o
Circuit Breaker (D-trip curve) - Home - FactoryMation

 

[stevehaun]

Virtuous:
"Something is wrong with that GFCI then and I would have it checked. What that GFCI should be doing is monitoring current leaving L1 and then returning through L2 and vice versa depending on phase. if there is a difference of approx 4ma between the two it should trip. If you pull one of the lines off the gfci and run it to a 110 device with a neutral you have created a current imbalance between L1 and L2 and it should trip. Thats if your run the 110 device AFTER the gfci of course, if it is on the supply side it doesn't matter."

Perhaps I am confused (very likely). I have 50 amp 120/240 VAC Square D Homeline GFCI breaker in my load center. From this is wired a 4 prong, 50 amp, 240 vac outlet. I have a 50 amp power cord that runs to my enclosure containing my power distribution block. From this distribution block my two hot leads are divided to power two 4500 watt elements using 240 vac and a pump and pid using 120 vac (using one hot limb). My understanding of a 120/240 vac GFCI is that it detects diffferences in current between the hot leads and the neutral lead. If the difference is greater than 5 milliamps, it trips. The way my unit is wired, the algebraic sum of the current from the hot leads should equal that in the neutral unless I have an inappropriate connection to ground. I am not sure why you think my GFI should trip.

I am far from an expert on these matters. However, I had my plans and my system checked by a friend who is both an electrical engineer and a licensed electrician. I have been using it for two years without a problem. All that said, I really don't want to get electricuted.

 

[BrewBeemer]

As posted on the last reply about mechanical contacts arcing and pitting not only that they the contacts can and will stick. Had this problem on a hot tub while gone for a week, neighbor was to add chemicals every couple days but didn't only picked up the mail and papers. The contacts stuck with the cover on plus all the extra 4" foam I added to the tub plus all the refrigeration foam covering I added to all the plumbing pipes it hit 157*F. A rather large electric bill that month. Even with that normal thermostat controlling the element it would not repeat the temps due to the contacts sticking differently each time. In my case on the third new $118 stat from day one it controlled a 100 amp capacity relay, (job site throw away item just changed out the coil to 120 volt). From then on the tub held tighter than 1/4 degree for many years.

Back to the Pol;

As you stated 5,500 is the maximum wattage in ULD elements this is true as I have looked and that 5,500 is a folded back wavy unit.
Why not use two 25, 35, 45 or even 5,500 watt elements, depending on what amperage breaker you can pull from? A 50 amp would handle two 4,500 watt elements as that is only a 37.5 amp load at 240 volt. Faster heating times. All you need is another SSRD and heat sink or one rather large one and mount both on it?
Yes there will be SSR heat i'm surprised no one has mentioned adding a computer or 4"x 4" fan to help cool the heat sink. I'm talking about those multi finned heat sink like 6" wide by 12" long. Cooler running SSR's will last for ever,
I can't believe what i've seen in the past on this forum with SSR's mounted in a box, one to the metal of the box with a heat sink mounted on the outside.
A window cut out of the box smaller than the heat sink allowing the SSR's to be mounted directly would be better. I would still add a fan as any air movement at all will pull heat off that heat sink.
Sounds like your wanting the ability to brew larger volumes like 10 to 15 gallons I reading you correctly? This would include rather large pots if your wanting 15 gallons at the end in corny's. MLT and Boil pot sized for head space like 22 gallons if a Russian Stout is brewed as I have mentioned in the past. On the Green Bay calculator site I come up with 18.70 to 19.35 mash volume. This makes for a large boil volume hence why the large 11,000 watts I have mentioned, this as two 5,500 ULD elements.
All you have to do is get all this needed additional equipment approved by the War Department then your flying (brewing) again.

The above reply with using only 3,000 watts I LMAO thinking about the long heat rise times then the example of 12 volts which is true that would only take 250 amps.

 

[The Pol]

I am only brewing 5 gallon batches now, and for the foreseeable future... so I am going with one 5500W element. That should get me to a boil pretty rapidly with 7.5 gallons and a start temp of 155F or more.
I already have my 240V 30A circuit wired up in my garage, SUPER easy... My mash circuits will be pulling about 14A max and the boil circuit 23A max. Since both circuits will never be running at the same time I am under the 80% threshold for the 30A circuit.
I have a 30A dual pole breaker, running 10/3 wire to a 4 prong 50A outlet in my garage. Next I will be installing the 5500W element in my BK. I will be using a 30A, three wire dryer cord (pigtail) and using a 1.5" or 2" PVC cap in order to pot the element electrical connections to make them water tight. I am keeping a part/supplier list for everything from the breaker box to the kettle.
Concerning the SSR, I am getting a 40A SSR and heat sink to power my element at 23A...
I will be sure to leave the SSR heatsink in an open area and provide a fan if there seems to be a necessity.

 

[bull8042]

....... The above reply with using only 3,000 watts I LMAO thinking about the long heat rise times then the example of 12 volts which is true that would only take 250 amps.

I certainly hope you realized the context of my post. I was responding to someone who seemed to think that 3kW was fine "as long as it was powered by 240". My point was 3kW is 3kW regardless of voltage. I was not, however, recommending any particular wattage, and definitely NOT recommending 12V. Please re-read my post completely before LYAO.

 

[kal]

So, on a boil kettle, you need two things. On startup, you need to bring the wort to a boil quickly. This is full power. Then once it is at boiling, you need to reduce the power to what it takes to maintain the boil. Exactly what you do on the kitchen stove.

To do this, you need either
1. a big ass rheostat ( Pol found one for $77 ),
2. a timer control circuit wired to the SSR with a variable input.
3. a microprocessor with custom code.
4. That 2-pole switch that beemer alluded to

If you're going to do an electric boil kettle, odds are you're going to use an electric HLT too. Best way to do that in the HLT is PID/SSR/thermocouple as most have said.

So since you already have a PID, just use the PID in manual (%) mode to control the boil duty cycle. Start at 100%, once boil is reached, turn it down.

This is basically the same as #2 in the list above, except that you don't have to solder anything with LM555 timers (not hard for anyone with electronic experience but why bother if the PID has manual control which [I think] most do?).

Kal

EDIT: Seems like some others have mentioned basically the same thing....

 

[bakins]

I use 4500W ULD elements with 25A SSR's. I use a heat sink on each SSR and they are in a box that is enclosed on all side except the bottom. It's a fairly large box (11x14x18 or so) which has all the electronics, including a subpanel. I've never had any heat issues. For me, the 4500W are fine for boiling 7.5 gallons of wort. Insulating the pots helped alot, less wasted heat.

I have a 50A GFCI circuit that runs to a 4 prong range receptacle. I use a range plug to a disconnect to the subpanel on my brew cart. Each element has a dedicated 30A circuit, and all the 120V stuff runs off a single 15A circuit (2 PID's and pumps). I did *not* bind the neutral to ground in this subpanel (very important). The elements use 2 hots and a ground. The pumps are switched (normal light switches to normal receptacle) and have 1 hot, ground and neutral. My PID's (auber) have hot and neutral only (no ground, double insulated, etc.)

It's actually fairly simple. I used to be scared of 240V until I read (and read and read) about it and understand it now. It's basically just 2 120V's in one. You can actually run lower amps on 240V with higher watts (it's simple math) which is really great when I was doing some other electrical work. I had one of our facilities guys at work go over my design and he approved. Mine is basically like the diagram in the thread I posted earlier.

Auber has 40A SSR's and heat sinks at a reasonable price. Their PID's have manual mode and are very simple and get the job done. They are the only "real" PID's I have worked with (I've done some arduino programming, but that's another thread).

You may also be interested in this: Embedded Control Concepts: Products
It can basically take the place of the PID's and is programmable. Feedback from beta users seems to be very positive.

Yeah,most of this post has been posted tonight, but wanted to give some encouragement. If I can do it, anyone can. Also, I got into my Duvel gift back I bought myself and sampled my agave wheat and that Newky clone I did, etc.... ANyway, electric brewing rules. I can brew and hand out and watch a movie with my kids at the same time indoors.

 

[The Pol]

The more I read the more comfortable I feel with this rig. I actually have already committed myself to it. I installed my 240V circuit today in the garage, simple. I am only going to have ONE 5500W ULWD element... pulling 23A on the boil circuit, the mash circuit (120V) will only pull around 14A. They will not be operated at the same time, obviously.

I already have an electric HERMS setup... everything is electric and controlled except my BK... that has been on the back burner (no pun) because of the need to get 240V and 30A in the garage to make it work.

Next I am converting the BK itself whic should be cheap and easy.

Third I will be building my control panel, which will be most $$$ and time consuming. It will contain the PIC, SSR, Heatsink (40A) and outlets to handle all of my electrical equipment.
Each 120V circuit will have a lighted toggle to switch it on and off (pump, JC419 and HLT mixer). The control box will be 12 x 12 x 6...

 

[keithd]

So since you already have a PID, just use the PID in manual (%) mode to control the boil duty cycle. Start at 100%, once boil is reached, turn it down.

And this is exactly what I do.

I have one PID for my entire brewery - temp (auto) mode for the HLT, and manual for the BK. I have one 240v electric outlet controlled by the PID and plug in the HLT and BK as I need. Makes for a redneck failsafe for the BK - if I get a boilover I just yank the plug out of the outlet killing power.

I set the BK duty cycle to 100% at first, and when it just starts to boil I turn it down to 75-80% and leave it there for the whole boil. The only time I have had a boilover is when I left the BK at 100% and walked away for a while...

I use the 1/16 DIN PIDs from Auberins and 5500w hot water tank elements. I bought an RTD for the HLT as it's much smaller than the thermocouple. Oh, and I use 40A SSRs with the 40A heatsink from Auberins. I don't use active cooling (fans) and it works alright even for a 90 minute boil. I wired it all with the Japanese equivalent of 8 AWG (I think - but I'm in the States right now and the brewery's in Japan).

Make sure you have some kind of GFCI breaker - something that can kill power if there's a short at the HLT or BK. I am 100% sure I didn't mis-wire something, so the GFCI's not for my mistakes, but for wear-and-tear - if a wire gets banged hard enough to wear through the insulation and have a conductor contact the keg kettle.
-keith

 

[BrewBeemer]

Pol; I must ask you what are your final wattage plans as you have gone from 3,500 watts only making 5 gallon batches boil with 7 1/2 gallons to looking for a 6,500 watt ULD element? In my reply #71 I mentioned "only 3,000 watts I LMAO thinking about the long heat rise times" vs the higher wattage elements that were mentioned before. Well this got bull8042 into this thread on my case about my reply. No worries just my opinion looking for shorter temp rise times.

Then Pol on reply #70 your up to 5,500 watts for 5 gallon batches.

Yes bull8042 on reply #71 I know 3kw energy is 3kw energy be it any voltage applied the amperage takes a big hit like I posted at 250 amps with 12 volts.

caskconditioned, reply #18 with 4,500 watts as an option of brewing 10 gallon batches was a suggestion that may happen later on and a good one as we grow into bigger brewing batches, never fails. Example start out on a minibike if your old enough to remember them to later with a 996 Ducati.

Like a Cox Tee Dee .010 as a kid to wrenching on 2800 Pratts, 3350 Wrights,
JT9D and 501-D13 Allisons on C-130's (this was for you Pol).

I bet bull8042 reply #17 to use a 7,200 watt hot tub element would have way higher wattage per/sq inch than any elements we have been brewing with in the past, I smell scorch on that one unless i'm proved wrong.

Pol on your reply #52 "(2) hots running to the SSR and out to element".
This is impossible as a SSR has only one terminal in and one terminal out.
Now A SSRD is a different animal, basically two SSR's in one unit with two seperate in and two seperate out terminals to switch both seperate hot legs.

Bakins replied "one hot to element one hot to SSR, same wiring method by
stevehaun. This is a bad and dangerous thing to do as you will always have the element energized with 120 volts a safety thing here.

Bakins did reply at another time with 4,500 watts ULD 25 A to SSR's, this I read as two seperate SSR units. Now that is the safe and proper way as the element is dead zero voltage applied when the heat is turned down with the power still on.

Pol, on your reply #34 "I am not an electrical engineer", you do not have to be one to build your electrical brewing unit.

I think I've about covered everyone that has replied to Pol's starting thread and by now must have everyone pissed off at me, I had to reply and comment.

 

[bull8042]

In my reply #71 I mentioned "only 3,000 watts I LMAO thinking about the long heat rise times" vs the higher wattage elements that were mentioned before. Well this got bull8042 into this thread on my case about my reply. No worries just my opinion looking for shorter temp rise times.

Yes bull8042 on reply #71 I know 3kw energy is 3kw energy be it any voltage applied the amperage takes a big hit like I posted at 250 amps with 12 volts.

I bet bull8042 reply #17 to use a 7,200 watt hot tub element would have way higher wattage per/sq inch than any elements we have been brewing with in the past, I smell scorch on that one unless i'm proved wrong.

Pol, on your reply #34 "I am not an electrical engineer", you do not have to be one to build your electrical brewing unit.

I think I've about covered everyone that has replied to Pol's starting thread and by now must have everyone pissed off at me, I had to reply and comment.

No, BrewBeemer, I am NOT on your case, nor am I pissed off with you at all! However, I am a double-E and design control systems for custom automation and vertical high-speed machining centers, so I just try to make sure everything I post is accurate and properly understood as it pertains to "all things electrical". I did originally think you were calling "BS" on my post, but after this one, I realize your intent.
Yes, I agree that 3kW will produce loooong rise-times with 5+ gallons.
The element I am planning is a higher density element, BUT, I am ONLY using it in my HLT. To date, I have not scorched water but the SWMBO says it could happen at any time with my cooking. I think this brings to light the fact that many have made recommendations that don't necessarily pertain to the POLs application, myself included. I wasn't thinking about him boiling wort with it.
There! Are we straight now?

 

[The Pol]

I am using a 5500W ULWD RIPP element that I found for $18...
I am going to control it with a PID and SSR (40A) from Auberins
I am going to boil 7.4 gallons down to 5 gallons
I have 240V 30A service to run the BK element (highest draw in the system)
The 240V 30A will also run my HLT systems during mash and sparge which will run 14A max.
Everything is wired with 10 AWG so far, for the 30A circuit.

Wait, so I have never even seen an SSR in real life, and it only has one hot leg in and out? And I will need (2) SSRs with heat sinks to power ONE element? Or I get an SSRD? Now I have to look up what an SSRD is. Yeah, I dont want my element energized any time I have power running to my brew rig!

EDIT: SSRDs are expensive... $100 for a 40A unit? I suppose I could just get (2) SSRs and then what, split the output from my PID to both SSRs? Will (2) 40A SSRs be overkill on an element that is pulling 23A? I am a ways off from building my control box, but the info now is much appreciated. I am probably looking at several weeks out before I start to build it. Ordering my kettle components and such today.

Also, thanks MEDO for the straight thread SS nut for installing my element!

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

1. Yes the SSR controls only one leg of the 220.
2. You can't split it across 2 SSR's
3. Where are you looking at prices ?

A 40A + heatsink at Aubern Instruments is $39.
4. The 40A is NOT overkill.

Links on the straight nut and the $18 element?

 

[The Pol]

Well if I cannot split it across (2) SSRs... you are telling me that I will always have current at my heating element? Meaning it will always be heating? Re-Read my post...

The SSR is only $20... and SSRD is $100...

When I asked if 40A was overkill that was when I was referring to using (2) SSRs...

Since I cannot, tell me what exactly will be happening with my element when it has one hot leg at all times when my BK is empty... using one SSR.

Straight Thread Nut is at McMaster Carr... 4464K586
The RIPP element is at Shop RonsHomeAndHardware.com For Small Appliances, Hardware, Housewares, Organic Cleaning Products, CFLs, Weber Grills & So Much More