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sliverx said:
I know its likely not very important on the beer geek list but just for information completeness Mort Subite framboise and Kriek can be found in the US and not just Canada.


HpXCsCc.jpg


771OVjG.jpg
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Isn't that a pretty common beer in the US?
 
Forgetfu said:
There won't be, at least not based on current information. As the Lambic.Info project has shown me time and time again, the history and knowledge around vintage lambics is vague, often nothing more than rumor.

There was an update issued to that article (http://allaboutbeer.com/article/ghost-whales/). After it was initially published, a direct source came forward. This is the risk of chasing rare old lambic, but also one of the many benefits to a project like this to help clear up these rumors. It appears that the bottle was a custom labeled 3F gueuze to celebrate the birth of a local lambic fan's twins. There are actually two versions, a gueuze for the boy and a kriek for the girl. But, the point is that it's not a unique lambic based on that. It was misinformation.

I do still have some questions about that though, as 1998 3F Gueuze was cork and caged, but the Driesjes Eerste Plasje was cork and crowned. Also, I've had late 1990's 3F Gueuze multiple times, it this tasted very different. But the updated information was sourced directly and we have no other info to the contrary at the moment to assume it's anything other then a home-labeling.
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I have access to a 98 3F OG. If I can add anything, feel free to give me a shout! Happy to contribute pictures, any info, or send bottles/glasses/other stuff for science!
 
SeaWatchman said:
#nerdalert
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No way, I spend my time talking about beers on an Internet message board because I'm super... whatever the opposite of nerdy is

Also, just read the AWA/ACA on the microorganisms page.

is it agreed that all spontaneous beers outside of Belgium are now "American"? Because we are stuck with American pale ale, even for beers made entirely with NZ or Australian ingredients (this is slowly changing but for the most part they are still referred to as APAs)

Do we have to be stuck with it for another thing? In this case it makes even less sense as brewers do look to the US for pale ale influence but Belgian is still where everyone is looking for sour influence (despite the excellent sours/wild beers out of the states of course).

What I'm saying is, quit hogging the initialisms.
 
LukeAleTime said:
is it agreed that all spontaneous beers outside of Belgium are now "American"? Because we are stuck with American pale ale, even for beers made entirely with NZ or Australian ingredients (this is slowly changing but for the most part they are still referred to as APAs)
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Definitely not. The use of the term is intended to be a specific example of non-lambic spontaneous fermentation in beer, and that's what it's called in the literature. Given how broad of a style "American Wild Ales" is, if it can even be called that, I see no reason to give all sour beers that don't fall neatly into one of the other buckets that name. At least with APAs it's a clear style that was developed in the US. With AWAs, at least to me, it feels like it's not a clear style but rather a catch-all for anything that doesn't fit into some other, more specific style.

LukeAleTime said:
Do we have to be stuck with it for another thing? In this case it makes even less sense as brewers do look to the US for pale ale influence but Belgian is still where everyone is looking for sour influence (despite the excellent sours/wild beers out of the states of course).
Click to expand...

Agreed. I don't think there's any reason why we need to be stuck with this initialism, but I needed a name for the other spontaneously fermented beer that was being compared and contrasted to lambic in that section, and American Coolship Ale is what the literature uses. I kept "American Wild Ale" there as well, as that's what most readers would probably recognize them as, though that name is applied to all kinds of stuff that doesn't spend time in the big shallow pan.
 
duketheredeemer said:
Definitely not. The use of the term is intended to be a specific example of non-lambic spontaneous fermentation in beer, and that's what it's called in the literature. Given how broad of a style "American Wild Ales" is, if it can even be called that, I see no reason to give all sour beers that don't fall neatly into one of the other buckets that name. At least with APAs it's a clear style that was developed in the US. With AWAs, at least to me, it feels like it's not a clear style but rather a catch-all for anything that doesn't fit into some other, more specific style.



Agreed. I don't think there's any reason why we need to be stuck with this initialism, but I needed a name for the other spontaneously fermented beer that was being compared and contrasted to lambic in that section, and American Coolship Ale is what the literature uses. I kept "American Wild Ale" there as well, as that's what most readers would probably recognize them as, though that name is applied to all kinds of stuff that doesn't spend time in the big shallow pan.
Click to expand...

It's a tough one because the people driving taxonomy are mostly coming from the US. Here in Aus. people are still happy to call them lambics and sours (even if they are straight brett). So inevitably we end up with "American" as the differentiating term. There are maybe... 3 or 4 breweries here in Australia experimenting with true spontaneous fermentation and they are still in their infancy; so there isn't a great rush to classify them from the wider public. As far as I know, no-one in New Zealand is (am asking around now for my own interest).

Whether or not new classifications or terms rise organically remains to be seen I guess. I just don't want to be stuck saying to people in Australia "it's not a lambic, it's an AWA..." (which admittedly I'm not and shouldn't ever be as I'm probably in just as good of a position to drive the taxonomy here as anyone, other than the brewers slapping "lambic" on anything soured).

Personally, I believe "sour ale" should imply it's from a culture, while "wild ale" implies spontaneous fermentation.

I'm just thinking out loud more than anything though.
 
LukeAleTime said:
No way, I spend my time talking about beers on an Internet message board because I'm super... whatever the opposite of nerdy is

Also, just read the AWA/ACA on the microorganisms page.

is it agreed that all spontaneous beers outside of Belgium are now "American"? Because we are stuck with American pale ale, even for beers made entirely with NZ or Australian ingredients (this is slowly changing but for the most part they are still referred to as APAs)

Do we have to be stuck with it for another thing? In this case it makes even less sense as brewers do look to the US for pale ale influence but Belgian is still where everyone is looking for sour influence (despite the excellent sours/wild beers out of the states of course).

What I'm saying is, quit hogging the initialisms.
Click to expand...

duketheredeemer said:
Definitely not. The use of the term is intended to be a specific example of non-lambic spontaneous fermentation in beer, and that's what it's called in the literature. Given how broad of a style "American Wild Ales" is, if it can even be called that, I see no reason to give all sour beers that don't fall neatly into one of the other buckets that name. At least with APAs it's a clear style that was developed in the US. With AWAs, at least to me, it feels like it's not a clear style but rather a catch-all for anything that doesn't fit into some other, more specific style.



Agreed. I don't think there's any reason why we need to be stuck with this initialism, but I needed a name for the other spontaneously fermented beer that was being compared and contrasted to lambic in that section, and American Coolship Ale is what the literature uses. I kept "American Wild Ale" there as well, as that's what most readers would probably recognize them as, though that name is applied to all kinds of stuff that doesn't spend time in the big shallow pan.
Click to expand...

LukeAleTime said:
It's a tough one because the people driving taxonomy are mostly coming from the US. Here in Aus. people are still happy to call them lambics and sours (even if they are straight brett). So inevitably we end up with "American" as the differentiating term. There are maybe... 3 or 4 breweries here in Australia experimenting with true spontaneous fermentation and they are still in their infancy; so there isn't a great rush to classify them from the wider public. As far as I know, no-one in New Zealand is (am asking around now for my own interest).

Whether or not new classifications or terms rise organically remains to be seen I guess. I just don't want to be stuck saying to people in Australia "it's not a lambic, it's an AWA..." (which admittedly I'm not and shouldn't ever be as I'm probably in just as good of a position to drive the taxonomy here as anyone, other than the brewers slapping "lambic" on anything soured).

Personally, I believe "sour ale" should imply it's from a culture, while "wild ale" implies spontaneous fermentation.

I'm just thinking out loud more than anything though.
Click to expand...

And that exchange right there is exactly why we made this site. This kind of discussion needs to happen on so many issues concerning lambic. Awesome stuff.
 
LukeAleTime said:
It's a tough one because the people driving taxonomy are mostly coming from the US. Here in Aus. people are still happy to call them lambics and sours (even if they are straight brett). So inevitably we end up with "American" as the differentiating term. There are maybe... 3 or 4 breweries here in Australia experimenting with true spontaneous fermentation and they are still in their infancy; so there isn't a great rush to classify them from the wider public. As far as I know, no-one in New Zealand is (am asking around now for my own interest).

Whether or not new classifications or terms rise organically remains to be seen I guess. I just don't want to be stuck saying to people in Australia "it's not a lambic, it's an AWA..." (which admittedly I'm not and shouldn't ever be as I'm probably in just as good of a position to drive the taxonomy here as anyone, other than the brewers slapping "lambic" on anything soured).

Personally, I believe "sour ale" should imply it's from a culture, while "wild ale" implies spontaneous fermentation.

I'm just thinking out loud more than anything though.
Click to expand...
My issue with "sour ale" (as an Untappd moderator, at least) is that it's not obvious that it's a specific category. So naifs will put literally anything that's sour in as that, even if it would be better as some other style (Flemish Red, for instance). I also tend to think that people are way too literal about the country thing, clearly you can make a Belgian Pale Ale (or whatever) in other countries, it's not an actual appellation.

Having a distinction between Wild Ale (a sort of "none of the above" for beers that contain non-sacc yeasts) and Coolship Ale seems fine to me, but I'd really be annoyed if "Sour Ale" became a thing. No one calls Barleywines/Stouts "Sweet Ales".
 
stupac2 said:
My issue with "sour ale" (as an Untappd moderator, at least) is that it's not obvious that it's a specific category. So naifs will put literally anything that's sour in as that, even if it would be better as some other style (Flemish Red, for instance). I also tend to think that people are way too literal about the country thing, clearly you can make a Belgian Pale Ale (or whatever) in other countries, it's not an actual appellation.

Having a distinction between Wild Ale (a sort of "none of the above" for beers that contain non-sacc yeasts) and Coolship Ale seems fine to me, but I'd really be annoyed if "Sour Ale" became a thing. No one calls Barleywines/Stouts "Sweet Ales".
Click to expand...


I flip flop on this issue a whole heap. 6 months ago I was in complete agreement with you. In a months time I'll probably change my mind.

At the moment I see "sour ale" like any other style that could have endless variations. But we expect the brewer to add a little more such as "WC IPA", "Saison with brett", "sweet stout" It's the overarching category and the specifics get added where needed.

In the case of stout, we have "dry irish" or "milk stout". Which isn't too far from saying "Flemish style sour ale" or "Lambic style ale". I guess we are stuck with the "style" if we want protect the original terms. So that makes things clumsy.
 
stupac2 said:
My issue with "sour ale" (as an Untappd moderator, at least) is that it's not obvious that it's a specific category. So naifs will put literally anything that's sour in as that, even if it would be better as some other style (Flemish Red, for instance). I also tend to think that people are way too literal about the country thing, clearly you can make a Belgian Pale Ale (or whatever) in other countries, it's not an actual appellation.

Having a distinction between Wild Ale (a sort of "none of the above" for beers that contain non-sacc yeasts) and Coolship Ale seems fine to me, but I'd really be annoyed if "Sour Ale" became a thing. No one calls Barleywines/Stouts "Sweet Ales".
Click to expand...

My only problem with the term "wild ale" in general is that it's often applied to beers that don't use wild yeast. If you're using an axenic strain of Brett that's been propagated by White Labs for the last decade and a half, I'd say it's not wild any more, but perhaps that's getting kind of pedantic.

I think a lot of the trouble stems from there being so much diversity in the category that's it's hard to call them much other than "Wild Ales" because they use strains of yeast that are broadly painted as wild, or "sour ales" because they use sour as a primary flavor. The other issue is that along with the group's diversity, there's not a whole lot of well-defined boundaries between different "AWAs" or "ACAs" or whatever you want to call them, though perhaps people will gravitate towards more distinct styles that will someday allow for this. Like hoppy sour beers form a category, sweet, dark sour beers another, etc., but right now I think you're right and the only way to cover it is to have a sort of "none of the above" category for beers that use non-Sacc yeast, whatever you want to call it.
 
Maybe I'm late to this party, and I'm definitely out of my depth.

What is wrong with a large grouping called "mixed fermentation ales"? They could then be broken into smaller groupings based on ingredients, geography, or arbitrary reasons.

This whole lambic thing is sort of a champagne/prosecco/sparkling white wine thing, IMO. I always thought it was strange to differentiate what is more or less the same beverage based on where it was made. That being said, I'm looking forward to educating myself on the new site. Nice work.
 
thejukes said:
Maybe I'm late to this party, and I'm definitely out of my depth.

What is wrong with a large grouping called "mixed fermentation ales"? They could then be broken into smaller groupings based on ingredients, geography, or arbitrary reasons.

This whole lambic thing is sort of a champagne/prosecco/sparkling white wine thing, IMO. I always thought it was strange to differentiate what is more or less the same beverage based on where it was made. That being said, I'm looking forward to educating myself on the new site. Nice work.
Click to expand...

I kinda like "mixed fermentation ale", though that's a very broad category. That said, I think that's probably what's needed, so that any beer that uses mixed fermentation but doesn't fall into one of the more specific styles will be caught by it.

LukeAleTime: I've added some new language to that section of the microbio page that describes the current problem with the name "AWAs" a bit. Let me know if it's better!
 
duketheredeemer said:
I kinda like "mixed fermentation ale", though that's a very broad category. That said, I think that's probably what's needed, so that any beer that uses mixed fermentation but doesn't fall into one of the more specific styles will be caught by it.

LukeAleTime: I've added some new language to that section of the microbio page that describes the current problem with the name "AWAs" a bit. Let me know if it's better!
Click to expand...

Yep. I like that. I haven't actually heard anyone call them AWAs here in Australia yet tho. I am trying to preempt that.

Meanwhile I've been using the readability app to send pages to my kindle. I would recommend.
 
First off, excellent work on this! A massive contribution to the understanding of these beers worldwide.
Is this the preferred place to offer suggestions?

I always assumed AWA was a Talkbeer thing. Never seen it anywhere else. Its a relatively poor term specifically due to the "American" inclusion, which is a totally meaningless distinction (not that "wild" tells us much either). Especially when you consider the plethora of non-lambic sour and brett ales being made the world over since the dawn of civilization. It seems like an insult by exclusion to all the brewers (especially from Belgium) making stellar, non-Lambic sour ales (which don't really fit the category Oud Bruin, or Flanders Red, either.) It'd be a shame if it caught on.

While it isn't exactly poetry I'd vastly prefer "mixed fermentation ale" as the broadest category. I don't mind "sour ale" as broad category as well. Of course, It'd need to exclude beers only made with Brett, for which we need another category. If you look at barleywines historically they started with similarly vague and unwieldy names (not that barleywine is poetry either). (Not to mention Stout which brings up some many taxonomic problems it'd make your head spin.)

So you could break it down something like this (It should look like a bracket, but I don't know how to do it in a form):

Mixed fermentation Ale
/ \
Sour Ale Brett Ale
/ \
Sour Brown Ale, Sour Blonde Ale, etc. Brett Pale Ale, Saison Brett, etc.

Obviously I'm making some **** up there, but you get the point. It's way more useful if we leave countries out.
I think the problem comes when you then try to classify American attempts at Lambic and Gueuze. For my money I think countries should be kept out of this one as well. It doesn't matter that the brewers are American, It matters they are not in the Pajottenland. For this there is currently a trend for using "Pseudo-Lambic", or "pLambic". Which is fine but I don't like them much.
Perhaps "Neo Lambic"? It's nice and short, and has some historical taxonomic relevance. There's also "Lambic Style Ale", which is clunkier, but get's the point across.
 
I was looking at the info on 3F VOG too find some info in the 2007 Vantentijin label. I didn't see much other than that it's a variable label. is the label just because of St Valentine's Day? Nothing more?

Cheers
 
drbenzo said:
I was looking at the info on 3F VOG too find some info in the 2007 Vantentijin label. I didn't see much other than that it's a variable label. is the label just because of St Valentine's Day? Nothing more?

Cheers
Click to expand...
That's always been my understanding. They bottled it on 2/14/2007 so they put that slightly different label on it.
 
drbenzo said:
I was looking at the info on 3F VOG too find some info in the 2007 Vantentijin label. I didn't see much other than that it's a variable label. is the label just because of St Valentine's Day? Nothing more?

Cheers
Click to expand...

Yeah there's nothhng else different about it other than the label and both regular and synthetic corks were used.
 
Good start, but I think there's still work to be done before I migrate over from lambic.infowars

1357695354970.cached.png
 
drbenzo said:
I was looking at the info on 3F VOG too find some info in the 2007 Vantentijin label. I didn't see much other than that it's a variable label. is the label just because of St Valentine's Day? Nothing more?

Cheers
Click to expand...

stupac2 said:
That's always been my understanding. They bottled it on 2/14/2007 so they put that slightly different label on it.
Click to expand...

I just updated the page.

https://www.lambic.info/index.php?title=3_Fonteinen_Oude_Geuze_Vintage#St._Valentijn_Cuv.C3.A9e
 
brian4beer said:
Isn't there a 750ml bottling of OGV from Feb 2004 with Nighlights label? Don't see that one listed but I may be wrong.
Click to expand...

callmemickey could answer that, I'm sure. There isn't one listed on his batch list (which is on the site and here too), but if there is some evidence otherwise that'd be good new info to have!
 
Question about TSG as mentioned on the Sweetened Lambic page

It guaranteed that any sweetened geuze would simply be called ‘geuze’ and any fully traditionally produced geuze would be called ‘oude geuze’, with the adjective ‘oude’ as a title that guarantees that the beer has been prepared the old, traditional way.
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Is there an updated TSG document to this one that discusses the sweetened geuze/oude geuze difference?

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:1997:021:0013:0014:EN:PDF

I found the citation for the paragraph on google books, but the references page isn't available.
  1. Tessa Avermaete and Gert Vandermosten, Traditional Belgian Beers in a Global Market Economy, 2009
Link: http://goo.gl/qUqptu

The HORAL page isn't clear when put through translate:

Additionally, this KB ignored the reality that there are two totally different productten, real Geuze and capsulekesgeuze, continued to bear the same name (see photo). Any subsequent adjustments, in 1973, 1974 and 1993, up to this reality beyond.
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Capsulekesgeuze? Is that sweetened geuze? (couldn't find a mention of it on the site, and google only brings up three other sites mentioning that word; but the internet can't give me an english translation).
 
Capsulekesgeuze mean in old Brussels speaking : small cap gueuze . It's not a real word ;)
Funny you're speaking about this OGV sint Valentijn , i got 3 bottles from a récent trade :)
 
LukeAleTime said:
Question about TSG as mentioned on the Sweetened Lambic page

Is there an updated TSG document to this one that discusses the sweetened geuze/oude geuze difference?

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:1997:021:0013:0014:EN:PDF

I found the citation for the paragraph on google books, but the references page isn't available.
  1. Tessa Avermaete and Gert Vandermosten, Traditional Belgian Beers in a Global Market Economy, 2009
Link: http://goo.gl/qUqptu

The HORAL page isn't clear when put through translate:



Capsulekesgeuze? Is that sweetened geuze? (couldn't find a mention of it on the site, and google only brings up three other sites mentioning that word; but the internet can't give me an english translation).
Click to expand...

One of the big remaining pages that we have yet to publish is one that covers the various decrees, laws, etc. It's like trying to untie a giant knot, but we are getting there. Thanks for that PDF link, by the way.

Regarding Capsulekesgeuze, we mention it in the sweetened article but it is spelled Capsulekensgeuze on there (as that is how most sources spell it). Search that spelling on Google and you'll get a few more results. But yeah, essentially it's just ~25cl bottles that are capped and nothing else, generally sweetened. But I have been eying up ordering some 25cl Boon OG for the summer.

You can shoot me a PM about the Avermaete & Vandermosen source if you want to read the chapter. It's in a bigger book, but an informative chapter in general.
 

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