What is "Alt" beer

[balrog]

....sounds like we are all making Sticke Alts, all the time then....

 

[Miraculix]

And what makes a “Sticke” alt? Sticke means secret in German. What I read says the brewer was “heavy handed” so it has more. How much more?

I'm sorry, but Sticke isn't even a real German word. Maybe some regional dialect might have it but not "normal" German. Secret in German is Geheimnis.

 

[Shenanigans]

Yes it's apparently a Düsseldorf thing

The description of Sticke From the Uerige website:

German
Der ungewöhnliche Name leitet sich davon ab, dass man in früheren Zeiten „stickum“ („hinter vorgehaltener Hand“) weitererzählte, dass der Braumeister wohl etwas zu großzügig beim Abwiegen der Zutaten war.

English
The unusual name derives from olden days, when the guests would whisper (‘stickum’ being a dialect term for whispering) that the master brewer must have been a little too generous when weighing out the ingredients.

The translation is not 100% as the German version mentions that it involves whispering into someones ear behind your hand.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes it's apparently a Düsseldorf thing

The description of Sticke From the Uerige website:

German
Der ungewöhnliche Name leitet sich davon ab, dass man in früheren Zeiten „stickum“ („hinter vorgehaltener Hand“) weitererzählte, dass der Braumeister wohl etwas zu großzügig beim Abwiegen der Zutaten war.

English
The unusual name derives from olden days, when the guests would whisper (‘stickum’ being a dialect term for whispering) that the master brewer must have been a little too generous when weighing out the ingredients.

I was suspecting something like that. Man we have wired dialects... Plattdeutsch, bayrisch und und und.......

 

[Spartan1979]

Schlussel's "Sticke" is spelled "Stike"

 

[T Murph]

From what I have read sticke reflects the Germans altered recipes for Alt Beer with higher IBUs from hops. Sounds like an amber IPA to me. I have never had the pleasure of sampling a Sticke Alt but it sure sounds interesting. True Alt beers are high on my list of favorite beer styles. I am now in search of a sticke alt beer.

 

[Miraculix]

From what I have read sticke reflects the Germans altered recipes for Alt Beer with higher IBUs from hops. Sounds like an amber IPA to me. I have never had the pleasure of sampling a Sticke Alt but it sure sounds interesting. True Alt beers are high on my list of favorite beer styles. I am now in search of a sticke alt beer.

Me too!

 

[Miraculix]

From what I have read sticke reflects the Germans altered recipes for Alt Beer with higher IBUs from hops. Sounds like an amber IPA to me. I have never had the pleasure of sampling a Sticke Alt but it sure sounds interesting. True Alt beers are high on my list of favorite beer styles. I am now in search of a sticke alt beer.

I found out that it's seasonal. Only brewed twice a year and nobody got it for sale in Germany atm.

 

[Gus_13]

And what makes a “Sticke” alt? Sticke means secret in German. What I read says the brewer was “heavy handed” so it has more. How much more?

From everything I've read, like Spartan said above, it's an opportunity for the brewers to experiment. Different malts, hops, higher gravities, etc. I've even seen some DoppelStickes out there as well. Even more gravity and girth.

 

[Shenanigans]

I'm sure you already know but there's also the double sticke from Uerige.
I only live 25 miles from Düsseldorf and still haven't tried it.
Now that all the Corona restrictions are starting to fall away I think it's time to go into town and tour the Altbier brew pubs again.
Another one I have missed out on is the 1838er, which is an Altbier brewed with Cascade and Galaxy.
You just need to be there at the right time to get get a few of them as they don't brew it so often.

Here something on the double Sticke BTW

Make Your Best Doppelsticke Altbier | Craft Beer & Brewing (beerandbrewing.com)

 

[Gus_13]

Dang Spalt hops are hard to come by now. I found some on eBay but the only other online source was AIH but they were $35 a LB. Weird bc I used to find them pretty cheap. I did get a LB on eBay for like $18 plus shipping though.

 

[passedpawn]

From what I have read sticke reflects the Germans altered recipes for Alt Beer with higher IBUs from hops. Sounds like an amber IPA to me. I have never had the pleasure of sampling a Sticke Alt but it sure sounds interesting. True Alt beers are high on my list of favorite beer styles. I am now in search of a sticke alt beer.

The sticke beer is just more ABV. It's made for the holidays. Just bump up the base malt to get another 1% ABV. Not a big deal.

Regarding the standard alt beer, it's got a bit of malt and color, but it's a lawnmower beer. Don't over-do it. Keep the ABV low, no caramel malts.

 

[monkeymath]

I found out that it's seasonal. Only brewed twice a year and nobody got it for sale in Germany atm.

I've generally found Altbier hard to come by in Germany (outside of Düsseldorf, obviously, and surrounding areas). There's Diebels Alt, but other than that, you'll have to hit the hipster craft beer spots to find any, and those usually won't carry any either since it's not so trendy atm.

I can't speak for all of Germany, of course, having lived only in Munich and Hamburg. But in both places, Kölsch and Altbier are practically absent. Kölsch has a reputation as flavourless and watery, whereas Altbier is largely unknown.
I had my first Altbier only after I started brewing myself, and I think most of my friends have never had one.

 

[rmr9]

Finally tapped after 4 weeks of lagering. Nice and bready with a touch of toast! Just ignore that it’s a kölsch glass for the moment…I didn’t wash out my zum füchschen glass. Blasphemy I know…

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 765550

Finally tapped after 4 weeks of lagering. Nice and bready with a touch of toast! Just ignore that it’s a kölsch glass for the moment…I didn’t wash out my zum füchschen glass. Blasphemy I know…

Hey at least it’s a stange! Stanges are a traditional serving glass for an altbeir. Beer looks good!

 

[bracconiere]

Hey at least it’s a stange! Stanges are a traditional serving glass for an altbeir. Beer looks good!

you just tought me a new word.

 

[Dgallo]

you just tought me a new word.

 

[bracconiere]

View attachment 765557

beer is stange, when you pour your beer into stangers...

 

[T Murph]

you just tought me a new word.

Lol, and I like it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I didn’t wash out my zum füchschen glass. Blasphemy I know…

Don't look back in stange.

 

[Jayjay1976]

you just tought me a new word.

Stange meaning "rod" or something like that to describe the long-ish cylindrical shape. A somewhat antiquated German euphemism for taking a piss is "ein wasserstange in die ecke stellen" which translates to "put a stick/rod of water in the corner". Which raises the question, why do Düsseldorfers frequently compare Kölsch to piss; is it because they share a common stange form?

 

[Elric]

. Which raises the question, why do Düsseldorfers frequently compare Kölsch to piss; is it because they share a common stange form?

Why do so many craft beer enthusiasts refer to macro light lagers as piss? While Kolsch isn't nearly as neutral as AMLLs, it is still notably lighter in color and taste to an alt beer. Add in geographical rivalry and it's just such an easy crude insult to throw. That's my rudimentary guess anyway.

 

[wepeeler]

View attachment 765550

Finally tapped after 4 weeks of lagering. Nice and bready with a touch of toast! Just ignore that it’s a kölsch glass for the moment…I didn’t wash out my zum füchschen glass. Blasphemy I know…

Looks good man! I kegged mine about a week ago. It's only going to be able to condition for 3 weeks before I'm entering it into a competition. A bit darker than yours, but tasting very promising so far!

 

[monkeymath]

Which raises the question, why do Düsseldorfers frequently compare Kölsch to piss?

It's not just the people of Düsseldorf. It's Germans everywhere. With the exception of Köln, presumably.

I haven't had a whole lot of Kölsch myself yet, but I'd agree to some extent with the prejudice that Kölsch was less flavorful than other German beers. It lacks the lager character of Pils and Helles, the bitterness of Pils, the sweetness of Helles, the esters and phenols of Weißbier. The more niche/regional beer styles like Altbier, Berliner Weiße, Schwarzbier, Münchner Dunkel, Bock all have something special about them. And Kölsch has none of these aspects to it.

I recall Früh as pleasantly fruity, but e.g. Reissdorf seemed a bit bland to me. I know a clean Kölsch can still make for a nice beer, but it often just doesn't deliver as much flavour

 

[ebbelwoi]

...it is still notably lighter in color and taste to an alt beer.

Here's an interesting article. Apparently, people couldn't tell them apart in a blind test: Bier: Kölsch und Alt im Test nicht zu unterscheiden

The professor's name made me wonder whether it was an April Fool's joke, but apparently it's not.

 

[balrog]

Kolsch, 3-6 SRM
Altbier, 11-19 SRM

They couldn't tell the difference?

Sehr interessant

 

[grampamark]

Kolsch, 3-6 SRM
Altbier, 11-19 SRM

They couldn't tell the difference?

Sehr interessant

If the test was truly blind, ie. the tasters were blindfolded, I’m not surprised. An Altbier is a darker beer that doesn’t taste dark.

 

[balrog]

I really need to make a road trip across the Atlantic to find some in situ samples...

 

[T Murph]

This thread has apparently derailed into the abyss of the unknowing. How lame is ones knowledge of beer that a Kolsch and an Alt are indistinguishable. While they do have slight similarities IMO even a blind toungless mummy could tell a significant difference between the two.

 

[grampamark]

This thread has apparently derailed into the abyss of the unknowing. How lame is ones knowledge of beer that a Kolsch and an Alt are indistinguishable. While they do have slight similarities IMO even a blind toungless mummy could tell a significant difference between the two.

If the tasters were blindfolded and came from a group selected by “…hey, wanna drink some free beer…” then all bets are off.

 

[rmr9]

It’s definitely interesting that some couldn’t tell the difference in a blind taste test. I feel like I could tell the difference in a blind taste test easily. Then again, there are some people to whom most beer just “tastes like beer”. Not to derail the thread even further but it reminds me of brulosophy in a way…how everything they do seems to be insignificant because tasters can’t tell a difference.

Maybe I’ll track some kölsch down and give it a try.

 

[T Murph]

@rmr9 a good Kolsch is hard to find here in the USA. Kolsch is an outstanding lite ale fermented at colder temperatures. Many craft brewers use lager yeast to produce a brew they offer as a Kolsch. But if you have ever enjoyed a true Kolsch (from Klon) you will know the difference. Both Kolsch and Alt Beers are outstanding beers IMO. I wonder what exactly someone was tasting that was not distinguishable from one to the other.

 

[marc1]

Here's an interesting article. Apparently, people couldn't tell them apart in a blind test: Bier: Kölsch und Alt im Test nicht zu unterscheiden

The professor's name made me wonder whether it was an April Fool's joke, but apparently it's not.

I read the google translated version. The methods aren't particularly clear, and the link to the actual study publication didn't work. It seems like they only gave them one sample of beer to try, then asked them if it was kolsch or alt. Maybe they had them try the other one afterwards? It was most certainly not giving them a triangle test and asking them to find the odd one out.
It also seems like it was people from regions that traditionally drank only one or the other. So they might not have really known what the other style was supposed to taste like because they only drank their "home team" beer.

Quack had 50 men from Cologne and Düsseldorf between the ages of 35 and 65 taste beer. He limited himself to men because twice as many of them (80 percent) were beer drinkers. In addition, men consumed seven times the amount of beer compared to women.
The selected subjects had previously indicated that they drink beer at least occasionally - and were either born in their respective city or had lived there for at least 20 years or more. Specialist knowledge and the necessary local patriotism were therefore available.
After drinking the beer, the gentlemen should answer a few questions about the drink they tried:

• "tastes good"
• "tastes fresh"
• "tastes mild"
• "tastes spicy"

The subjects were also asked to guess whether they were drinking Kölsch or Alt. Striking: Only 55 percent of the test persons correctly recognized the respective beer types. This is roughly random level. The preferences for the respective types of beer were also distributed almost equally.

 

[rmr9]

Submitted my altbier to a local competition. It’s been in the keg for a long while but hopefully I can get some good feedback!

 

[passedpawn]

@rmr9 a good Kolsch is hard to find here in the USA. Kolsch is an outstanding lite ale fermented at colder temperatures. Many craft brewers use lager yeast to produce a brew they offer as a Kolsch. But if you have ever enjoyed a true Kolsch (from Klon) you will know the difference. Both Kolsch and Alt Beers are outstanding beers IMO. I wonder what exactly someone was tasting that was not distinguishable from one to the other.

Both beers are way better super fresh. Preferably, at the brewery in Cologne or Ddorf.

One of the GREAT things about homebrewing - it's like drinking out of the brite tank everytime. Always fresh.

 

[cmac62]

Okay, here is what I have on hand, Pils, White Wheat malt, aromatic, C 60, cara munich, honey malt, victory, and midnight wheat.

I'm thinking
8.5 lb Pils
.5 lb aromatic
.5 lb Cara Munich
.5 midnight wheat.
Yeast SO4 or US05.
Hops: 1 oz Citra at 30 and 1 oz Strisslspat at 5

Brewer's friend has me at 1048 - 1009 with an abv of 5.06, IBU of 31, and SRM of 24 (which seems a little high), but its all green. I'll likely go with a balanced water profile. Starting with RO and a Tsp of both gypsum and CACL and maybe a 1/2 of salt and Epsom salt.

I was thinking to mash 149/150 area for a balance.

If I don't have enough Pils I'll use the white wheat as a sub.

Comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[rmr9]

I would say the citra is going to push it out of style. The grist looks fine to me, and if I had to choose a yeast strain between the two listed I would go with US05. That’ll be cleaner but still may not be as clean as a true alt yeast. My 2 cents.

 

[cmac62]

I would say the citra is going to push it out of style. The grist looks fine to me, and if I had to choose a yeast strain between the two listed I would go with US05. That’ll be cleaner but still may not be as clean as a true alt yeast. My 2 cents.

The citra is really only for bittering. I could go 45 mins, but I don't think it will be too citrusy at 30 mins boil time. Also, my first guess would have been the 05. I also have some a bunch of different Kvieks dried in the freezer that I could use (hot head, hornidol, Voss, Lutra). Thanks

 

[rmr9]

I think it would be a good beer, but you’d have some hop notes that wouldn’t be to style. You’ll want the cleanest yeast possible if you aren’t using a true alt strain so the 05 or from what I hear lutra are good bets. Even better is wy1007 or imperial g02 Kaiser.

 

[balrog]

I think it would be a good beer, but you’d have some hop notes that wouldn’t be to style. You’ll want the cleanest yeast possible if you aren’t using a true alt strain so the 05 or from what I hear lutra are good bets. Even better is wy1007 or imperial g02 Kaiser.

AGree on the yeast -- the thing is you want it DRY so the S04 would leave the FG too high. Mash lower (149F) and US05 to make it dry. I would not use Kveik personally.

WY1007 ferment at 60F is what I do.