Thank you. Any batch you've brewed 29 times has to be good ... (unless you are a glutton for punishment..!) Prost!
What is "Alt" beer
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So you add the Brussels sprouts in secondary? Does that make it a Belgian, northern German alt with English malts? 
I'll be heading to Dusseldorf for a medical device conference in a couple weeks. I plan to more or less subsist on altbier and bratwurst. I too, have planned to make an alt for a couple years now. Never seem to get around to it. I've cultured the yeast from the source in the past, but may have lost it. Very bready aroma and unusually spread colonies on the petri dish, as I recall. Quite different from more modern brewing yeast, in appearance.
couchsending
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Wlp036 is genetically a bread yeast I believe
Almost all the Altbier recipes you’ll find, including those in the Altbier book, use a lot of Munich and Vienna and to me are way too malty.
The Uerige recipe is Pilsner, plus 2-3%
each of a roast malt and a medium caramunich. No Vienna or Munich. In my opinion it makes for a much easier drinking beer. Alt is also rather bitter. Haven’t been to Düsseldorf and I’ve never found anything even remotely fresh in the US.
Almost all the Altbier recipes you’ll find, including those in the Altbier book, use a lot of Munich and Vienna and to me are way too malty.
The Uerige recipe is Pilsner, plus 2-3%
each of a roast malt and a medium caramunich. No Vienna or Munich. In my opinion it makes for a much easier drinking beer. Alt is also rather bitter. Haven’t been to Düsseldorf and I’ve never found anything even remotely fresh in the US.
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A German friend told me that you could get an Altbier prescription for kidney stones and since prescriptions are subsidized you could have a case of Altbier for 26 cents. Could be my bad memory. Or his.
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The original Alaskan Amber had lots of crystal. I’ll try to find it for @kartracer2So you add the Brussels sprouts in secondary? Does that make it a Belgian, northern German alt with English malts?
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Thanks for that input. I really like Alaskan Amber and wondered how it compared to style. To me it's a "beer" tasting beer if you get my drift. Now to find an extract/steeping grain version that works.
Cheers,
Joel B.
These are the notes I took a long time ago.
I started with a version the LHBS gave me
6# LME (unknown extract, likely light, proly not pils)
10oz C60
1# C40
2oz C120
1# 2-row
Steep all grains in proly 4qts, sparge with 2qts
Boil 60, add LME near end
Liberty 1oz 4.5% 60m
Saaz 1oz 2.9% 15m
US-05 at 60-65 ambient
It was a good amber. I have no idea whether a clone. Being in MA I have no access and haven't had the real thing since the family did an Alaskan cruise years ago until one of my daughter bought me a couple 6 packs online, shipped from ?? and to me clearly shipped warm and telltale sherry aged flavor going on. Anyway, other notes from the time, for a total blowout of info:
Alaskan Brewing Co Alaskan Amber clone
Author: Scott Russell
Issue: September 2000
This beer was first brewed commercially by Douglas City Brewing in the late 1800s and later by Geoff Larson, who in 1986 founded his Alaskan Brewing Company. His amber has won a slew of awards since then, including several Great American Beer Festival medals and a first-place finish at the 1996 World Beer Championships.
Alaskan Amber is an altbier, more in the Münster tradition than the Düsseldorfer (in other words, it's sweeter, richer, less bitter and less dry).
Alaskan Brewing Co's Alaskan Amber clone
5 gallons, extract with grains; OG = 1.054 FG = 1.015; Bitterness = 20 IBUs
Ingredients:
1 lb. two-row pale malt
1/2 lb. medium crystal malt
1/2 lb. light crystal malt
5 lbs. Munton's unhopped light dried malt extract (DME)
4 AAU Cascade hops (1 oz. of 4% alpha acid)
4 AAU Saaz hops (1 oz. of 4% alpha acid)
1 tsp. Irish moss (last 15 minutes of the boil)
German ale yeast slurry (Wyeast 1007, White Labs WLP-029 or equivalent)
7/8 cups light DME for priming
Step by Step:
Crush pale and crystal malts. Steep in 2.5 gallons water at 150° F for 45 minutes. Remove grains, add DME and stir well. Bring to a boil, add Cascade hops. Boil 45 minutes, add Saaz hops, boil additional 15 minutes.
Remove from heat, cool. Add to fermenter along with enough chilled, pre-boiled water to make up 5.25 gallons.
When cooled to 68° F or so, aerate well and pitch yeast. Ferment at 68° F for ten days. Rack to secondary, condition cold (40° F) for fifteen days. Prime with DME. Bottle and condition at a cool cellar temperature (50° F) for two weeks. Serve at 50° F in a straight-sided altbier glass.
All-grain option:
Omit the dried malt extract and mash 8 lbs. pale malt plus the crystals (as above) in 12 quarts water at 152° F. Sparge with 15 quarts at 168° F.
Proceed as above from boiling and reduce wort volume to 5.25 gallons.
Alaskan Amber Other recipes
7 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 3 86.1 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.6 %
8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (57.0 SRM) Grain 5 5.6 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 6 2.8 %
0.60 oz Cascade [7.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 17.3 IBUs
1.50 oz Saaz [2.75 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 7.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029) [35.49 ml] Yeast 9 –
------
Grain
9 lbs. 2-Row Pale (Marris Otter)
0.55 lbs. Crystal 60L
0.55 lbs. Crystal 80L
Hops
0.75 oz. Cascade pellet 5.6 AAU @ 60 min.
1.00 oz. Saazer pellet 2.7 AAU @ 15 min.
Yeast
White Labs WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch
Mash Schedule
152F for 90 min
Sparge @ 175F
Other details
Primary: 2 weeks @ 65-70F
Secondary: 2 weeks
Keg: 1 month
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.017
Brewing Efficiency: 78%
Wait 2 full months, after brewing, before serving
---
6 gallons of Alaskan Glacier Water
6 lbs Vienna Malt
2 lbs Munich Malt
1 lb Crystal 60L
1 lb Crystal 80L
2 oz Saaz 60 min
1 oz Saax 15 min
German Ale Yeast WPL 029
This make a recipe that Beer Smith2 shows true to style for a Northern German Altbier.
1.054
33 IBU
16.3 SRM
ABV 5.1
----
Russian River Red
Alaskan Amber
(5 gallons, extract with specialty grains)
Here’s my Alaskan Amber Clone. I call mine Russian River Red. That’s the Russian on the Kenai Pennisula, not the California river. Any good Alaskan should understand the name. The Russian is famous for its runs of Sockeye salmon, which Alaskans call “Reds.” The folks that make the real thing say mine tastes real close. Some folks say it’s better, but I didn’t say that.
William E. (Bill) Murray
Anchorage, Alaska
Ingredients:
1 lb. domestic crystal malt,
80° Lovibond
0.5 lb. carastan malt (34° Lovibond)
7.25 lbs. Alexander’s Pale Malt Extract
1 oz. Cascade hops (6% alpha acid), for 60 min.
10 g. (.35 oz.) Czech Saaz hops (real Czech Saaz — alpha acid content is irrelevant), for 6 min.
1 tsp. Irish Moss
1/2 tsp. gypsum if your water is onthe soft side
1 L. starter of Wyeast 1007
(German Ale)
11/4 cups light DME for priming
Step by Step:
Steep the grains in a grain bag in 2.5 gal. cold water. Heat water to 156° F and hold for 20 min. Remove the grain bag and add the malt extract. Add water to make at least 6 gal. and bring to boil. Add the Cascade hops and Irish Moss and boil 54 min. Add Saaz hops and boil 6 min. more for a total boil of 60 min. Cool to about 65° F and pitch the starter. Aerate well.
Ferment at 56° to 58° F. This is a slow fermentation. Figure on 14 days each for primary and secondary. Prime and bottle. Allow 7 days in the bottle for carbonation and then cold condition for three weeks.
OG = 1.057.
FG = 1.020 (yep, that high)
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So you add the Brussels sprouts in secondary? Does that make it a Belgian, northern German alt with English malts?
I know, apologies to all Prussians, for using English malts in an altbier.
I figure since my heritage is German (my name means Boot, I call myself Bootery Brewery) I can get away with poetic license.
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Reading through the recipes here, I think I would prefer Balrog's. The others seem to have enough crystal malts to make them too sweet. I've never had an Alaskan Amber, so I don't know what the target is there. But if I could make a beer similar to that Copper from North Carolina, I'd be happy.
This version of my Alt recipe is, admittedly, a more “Americanized” version, with Magnum and Willamette hops and US-05 yeast. I also brew it with the same grain bill but using Noble hops and K-97 yeast. Ignore the acidulated malt; it’s part of my water adjustment.
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My tastes definitely went drier than original AAmber clone recipe.
I'll have to see if I can find someone to chat up when I'm there about recipes. Uerige is hoppier than most and probably why it's my favorite. It's also the source of my yeast isolate.
The setting really is a big part of it all. Wandering about Altstadt (old town), watching them roll the wooden casks out to the taps, sitting inside or outside amongst the crowds, the servers with trays of glasses and the etiquette and traditions of it all. I guess it's also why I'm a big fan of the local herbal liquor, Killepitsch, even though I'd previously considered Jägermeister to be vile.
The setting really is a big part of it all. Wandering about Altstadt (old town), watching them roll the wooden casks out to the taps, sitting inside or outside amongst the crowds, the servers with trays of glasses and the etiquette and traditions of it all. I guess it's also why I'm a big fan of the local herbal liquor, Killepitsch, even though I'd previously considered Jägermeister to be vile.
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True, mostly C60 IIRC, so very much an American homage, though also Dark Munich or maybe CaraMunich with Perle or Northern Brewer hops. Warm(ish) ferment and extended cold lager. I had a nice recipe and will try to remember to locate it when we get home in a few weeks.
killabitch! Man we drank that there.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
mendelec's point is the key one - this is one of those styles where the brand that everybody's heard of, is actually rather atypical (see also Fuller's ESB).
In Designing Great Beers (p130), Ray Daniels quotes the analyses of Anton Piendl in 500 Bier Aus Aller Welt. They average 1.047 OG, 80% attenuation and 34 EBC colour but the group of Dusselforf alts (excluding Uerig) are just under 30 IBU (BU:GU 62%), whereas Uerig is 48 IBU (BU:GU 102%). Uerig is also a touch paler (33 EBC) and a touch lower attenuation (78%) than the Dussedorf average.
But there's a group of alts (including some from Munster) that are rather different from the Dusseldorf ones, which can go as low as 12 IBU (and eg Pinkus is 18 IBU representing the Munster tradition). He also adds :
"The deep color of alt beer is achieved through the use of speciality malts for a portion of the grist. Though some commercial producers use caramel for coloring beers, most will add a portion of Munich malt and even some small amounts of black malt in order to achieve the desired color and malt flavor....Many brewers believe that wheat is a common ingredient in [both alt and kolsch] but commercial practice does not bear this out....Prof. Ludwig Narziss summarized the use of wheat in these styles: Sometimes in the case of kolsch and rarely in the case of alt, 10 to 20 percent of wheat malt is blended in to give the beers slightly more body."...After Pilsener malt, the primary ingredient of alt is usually Munich malt...Diebels Alt uses just two ingredients, 10 percent Munich malt and 90 percent base malt...Some will argue that crystal malt has a place here as well but I have found no evidence that such malts are used in the production of this style in Germany."
So something like :
4kg pilsner
400g Munich-10
100g Black-500
in 20 litres, mashed at 63-65°C.
30 IBU of something German - Hallertau, Spalt etc - or US lager hops - Mt Hood, Sterling etc - at 60 minutes, then a bit more at 10 minutes.
80% attenuation is a critical part of the style, if you can't rely on your mash getting you there then the yeast should be something like Nottingham, US-05 etc.
There's so such thing as a group of bread yeasts - breadmaking "destroys" yeast but brewing "creates" yeast, so historically bread was made with whatever yeast had been multiplied up by brewing. The concept of "bread yeast" only dates to the start of industrial baking. WLP036 seems to be in the "mixed" group which includes Windsor, S-33 and T-58, distilling yeasts and the yeast that happened to be selected by one major US company for making bread with.
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This is what I've empirically found, which makes this style so refreshing, is the dry crispness. That's the comment I get most from people, who, seeing a "dark" beer have in mind something along an American Amber, but get something more Kolsh-like.
Medica? I've been to that conference MANY times.
I doubt he's still there, but ask for the brewer Ollie at Fucschen. Check out this thread: Dusseldorf Altbier Brewery visit - Fuchschen - Pics & Youtube
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Yup, Medica. Just a small gathering... Around 180,000 of my closest friends when I first started attending. It's gradually gotten smaller and I have no idea what to expect this year. Huge, but slightly less so, I'm guessing.
Great thread, thanks for the link. I'll have to read through it all more carefully very soon.
I will absolutely hit Füchschen. I'll have to see if I can track the guy down. I was just starting to look into whether brewery tours were available and where.
Well, sorta. My Ollie Alt recipe was fine. I felt the instructions I got from Ollie were incomplete, so my recipe filled in the blanks. I was already half-lit and unprepared when we unexpectedly ended up in the brewery with the brewer: I should have gotten more exact info.
If you read the first post there, you'll see all the information I got from Ollie. "They use about 90% pilsner, 2% carafa, some accidulated malt, and some other minute grain additions that he didn't mention (in his words, he though they were unnecessary but the master brewers insisted on adding them). "
I used chocolate wheat malt to get color but avoid the bitterness that comes with dark barley malts (wheat is huskless, and that husk's the source of the bitterness).
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I always went with Carafa Special 2, and did see a diff once when Ritebrew was out of that and I foolishly subbed black patent; should have gone blackprinz or midnight wheat.
With respect to acidualted malt, do you detect any twang in the final product from that malt addition, or is it just there likely for pH adjustment? When I do the recommended grist for Josh Weikert's Dry Irish Stout for instance I swear I get a little twang, which for a Guiness type recipe is quite good.
+1 to midnight wheat.
I don't remember any twang from the acid malt. I do know that Guinness twang, very noticeable.
couchsending
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Acid malt for ph adjustment will not cause a “twang” unless you’re using an insane amount of it to counter really high alkalinity.
Basically, to sum it up, he said, use pilsener plus 2% carafa. Correct? Easy beer then, that's what I expected. Did he say something about carafa spezial, which would be the dehusked version? Your "extrapolated" version of the recipe is quite a bit different.
I don't remember his exact words. I believe what I put in that first post is exactly what I got from him. Like I said, I could have done better
Regarding my recipe, yea, I can't explain my rationale for any of itmonkeymath
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Just a random thought: if caramel malts are so absent from "traditional" commercial brewing, how come all those maltsters produce dozens of varieties of these malts? German "craft" brewing is so small - and has been practically non-existent just 15 years ago - that I cannot imagine that being a significant driver for malt production.
So who are maltsters making all these malts for?
I am posing this question in a rather suggestive way, but I am honestly interested in the answer (and I'm not saying that Altbier was usually brewed with Caramunich).
So who are maltsters making all these malts for?
I am posing this question in a rather suggestive way, but I am honestly interested in the answer (and I'm not saying that Altbier was usually brewed with Caramunich).
couchsending
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Weyermann exports 90% of its production.
The Ollie Alt recipe is very similar to the Uerige recipe. No Munich, no Vienna.
The Ollie Alt recipe is very similar to the Uerige recipe. No Munich, no Vienna.
Dgallo
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I love how this thread came back to life. For the conversation regarding malts. It’s pretty clearly defined that the rich bready/malt character comes from German basemalts, which would include Pilsner and Munich. Vienna is not necessarily traditional but it would still work for style guidelines.
I will agree it’s really difficult to find a commercial example. Luckily both Suarez and Drowned Lands brewing near me in NY each put one out. Suarez Is less malty but has a touch more bitterness
I will agree it’s really difficult to find a commercial example. Luckily both Suarez and Drowned Lands brewing near me in NY each put one out. Suarez Is less malty but has a touch more bitterness
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It's ~90 away but I'd try it; the website doesn't clearly show what their altbier offering is--is it only seasonal?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
The quote was specifically in relation to the commercial brewing of alts - not German brewing in general, nor potential export markets like Belgium.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
Are you asking about drowned lands or Suarez? Suarez has the altbeir currently on tap but not in cans. They tend to brew it 2 or 3 times a year. In terms of drowned lands, not sure. They only started distributing over this past year by me so I’m not quite sure.
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I meant Albany being 90miniute away and tried looking for something on their site called altbier and failed. Will investigate Saurez. Thanks
Have you been to Dusseldorf? There is nothing more educational than being in situ. Go there. It's costly to fly to Europe, but fly to munich and train to the rest. Super fun, you won't regret. Send me a post card.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
I just saw they haven’t updated their main site since March and are still only doing pick up orders at Suarez.
If you do come in to Albany, these are the two spots you should go for rare draft and can/bottles
Albany Ale and Oyster
https://www.albanyaleandoyster.com/
Delaware Supply
https://www.delsuptogo.com/
Delaware supply actually was one of the only 26 US locations selected for Cantillion Zwanze day. It’s only 5 minutes from my house, so if you go let me know. We can share some Homebrew with the owners. Really nice husband and wife
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Maybe one of these days. My great grandfathers, maternal and paternal, came from southern Germany, Stuttgart & Schwabisch Hall.
Someday.
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Came across this at an Italian market in St. Pete the other day. It's one I used to bring home from my frequent trips to Germany while I was working.
Das schmect gut!
Attachments
This mustard sold in drinking glasses which are supposed to be used as such after finishing the mustard goes waaaay back in time in Germany. But selling mustard in beer glasses is even new to me
I might pick up some of that next time I'm down there. Mazzaro's is very popular. Vacationing down here?
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Oh, YES! We love us some Mazzaro's!
We're here for an annual visit (twin grandkids birthday, my birthday, and Halloween in St. Pete's, which is a major production). Last year's trip was postponed due to Covid, so my Mazzaro's itch was in serious need of scratching. We're also here to have some warranty issues resolved with Big Olaf the Gulfstream Zephyr (RV).
Yesterday was the obligatory trek to Mazzaro's. Sadly, since our last visit, SWMBO'd has gone gluten-free, so she had to forgo her usual Rueben sandwich and had to 'settle' for some caprese with their freshly made mozzarella. I had my standard Hot Italian sub, which did not disappoint. They even had some leftover Weihanstephaner Festbier 2021, so I had to score a sixer.
Two years ago my daughter got me an in-house cooking class at their teaching kitchen (next door to the market). What a great place.
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Which German beers would traditionally be made using caramel malts, then? From what I've gathered from forums and online resources, caramel malts are not used for Münchner Dunkel or Altbier or Schwarzbier or Bockbier. I haven't read too much concerning (Dunkles) Weißbier, but it doesn't seem more plausible than for Münchner Dunkel, I'd say.
Exports are certainly a factor. But Belgium and England seem to have a rather rich tradition of producing their own malts. Besides, I'm somewhat sceptical if post-WWII Belgian brewers would buy German malts; with everything that had happened. Maybe the Czech republic?
Also, because it just popped into my head when I saw the thread's title and I always enjoy annoying people: "What is Alt? Oh baby, don't hurt me!"
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