Ways To Lower S-04 Acidity?

[Protos]

Gentlemen, I've searched various threads on Safale S-04 yeast and understood that while some love it others hate it for giving an acidic flavour. Unfortunately, I belong to the haters camp: I find it too acidic too. 'Unfortunately' because I got quite a stack of S-04 I bought two years ago when I was just starting my brewing hobby. I bought a lot of it and only then found I didn't care for S-04.

Now when the expiry date is nearing I'm anxious about using my stash up somehow. I followed advices to ferment at lower temperatures and found that a cool fermentation noticeably lowers esthers but not the twang. Aging didn't help as well: even a year-old sample of an Ordinary Bitter fully retained the noxious twang (while almost lost its hoppiness).

My question is, what else may work for lowering yeast-induced acidity?
Adding baking soda to the mash? Or are there some other twicks? Thank you.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I think it makes the most sense not to use it if you don't like it.

I don't think baking soda is a good idea.

Adding some thiamine (around 0.5mg/L perhaps) may help to reduce the amount of residual acetaldehyde which is known to cause a tart flavor and is characteristic of English strains.

 

[Protos]

Good point. Just thinking: then perhaps Ascorbic Acid might work too as it's also said to inhibit acetaldehyde?.. (Though it looks counterproductive: to add acid to fight acidity).

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ascorbic Acid might work too as it's also said to inhibit acetaldehyde?

Not to my knowledge.

edit:. ----

I would not add ascorbic acid unless you have a scientific source indicating that it may be helpful.

 

[Protos]

Oh I see now. Ascorbic Acid is really counterproductive. Then, will experiment with Thiamine.

Acetaldenyde, isn't that the same nasty stuff that causes hangovers? Never knew it was the culprit behind the S-04 tartness, thought it was caused by some kind of acid.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Acetaldenyde, isn't that the same nasty stuff that causes hangovers?

Possibly, but it's mainly because your liver converts ethanol to acetaldehyde.

Never knew it was the culprit behind the S-04 tartness

Well, that's one theory. I can't guarantee this will work.

P.S. The study I had linked doesn't really apply.

 

[Protos]

OK, thank you for the info, will explore what Thiamin can do.

I actually don't mind some English tartness, f. ex. I'm fine with it in MJ M36 Liberty Bell, but with S-04 I feel it's over the top. Just can't make myself to throw away that pile of S-04 packets as otherwise it's a fine reliable yeast: vigorously fermenting, perfectly settling, nice esthers etc., just too much of acidity.

 

[brownni5]

I'm an S-04 hater. I agree with RPh_Guy - cut your losses and find a different yeast. If you really want to see it turned into beer, there are lots of lovers that I'm sure would take it off your hands.

Edit: expiration dates on yeast are ploys to get you to buy new yeast (ok, maybe not), but they don't really mean much, especially if you have the ability to pitch more than one pack.

 

[Robert65]

I did a fair bit of measurement and note taking on this a couple of years ago, and found S-04 consistently to give a very low finished beer pH (and accompanying tartness) in the first generation. Thereafter it's quite well behaved and makes nice beer. But I don't care to make a dumper just to harvest yeast for subsequent fermentations that I find satisfactory, no matter how many times I might repitch. I tried stepping it up through a couple of starters to see if that resulted in a better first generation fermentation, but no such luck.

 

[Protos]

Thereafter it's quite well behaved and makes nice beer.

Great tip! (I'm even ready to sacrifice a batch to salvage the rest of the yeast). What do you think, why didn't it work in starters? Does it mean the yeast changes its behaviour only in a heavier gravity wort?

BTW, in other S-04 hate threads here on HBT and on another site people discuss whether S-04 produces Lactic Acid. The results are inconclusive though.

 

[Dgallo]

Start brewing some co-pitched sours. Then the lower ph will work to your advantage. Or use it in styles where the tartness is acceptable

 

[Protos]

Thanks Dgallo, I've thought of it. Unfortunately, I hate any sour drinks and have noone round here to give away my yeast or beer to. I hope Robert's suggestion will work and subsequent generations will be less tangy. If they won't, I'll strike them with Vitamin B1 as RPhGuy advised.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm even ready to sacrifice a batch to salvage the rest of the yeast

I hope Robert's suggestion will work and subsequent generations will be less tangy.

Let's think this through...

Even if this works for you, you want to use all of your yeast packets, right? So you will be dumping the first batch made with each packet.

How many batches of beer are you willing to make and then dump just to use some dry yeast packets??

 

[Protos]

I don't think it's really necessary to dump a whole batch, I guess making a higher-gravity step starter will suffice, just need to check this experimentally. I'm a small-batch brewer, not so much to loose if the experiment fails

Even if a whole first batch is needed to condition the yeast, tangy S-04 beer isn't as bad as to flush it down the gurgler. It's still drinkable anyway, just not too exciting.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I guess making a higher-gravity step starter will suffice

Hm, take another look; @Robert65 said that didn't work for him.

I tried stepping it up through a couple of starters to see if that resulted in a better first generation fermentation, but no such luck.

Even if a whole first batch is needed to condition the yeast, tangy S-04 beer isn't as bad as to flush it down the gurgler. It's still drinkable anyway, just not too exciting.

Well, all right. Maybe you'll acquire a taste for it.

 

[SanPancho]

Why not mix it with something else like us05 or notty or something clean. Could mitigate the tart, or even get rid of it completely. Cheap experiment.

 

[Protos]

Nice idea. Didn't think of it. Sounds like this could be the simplest solution.

I imagine, the S-04/Notty mix might be something similar to M36: well attenuating, mildly estery and slightly tangy in a good way. Will try.

The main goal of my yeast salvaging quest is cost-cutting: you don't throw away yeast when it is sold now much pricier than when you bought it and when you can't afford anymore buying as much other strains as you used to. Mixing S-04 will also help to stretch the use of other yeasts. I really like the suggestion of mixing, though never tried it before.

 

[brownni5]

Sounds like this could be the simplest solution.

I still think the simplest solution is to not brew with yeast you don't like. I mean try blends if you like, but if you're that into cost cutting, I don't see how buying more yeast and dumping batches you don't like accomplishes that.

 

[Protos]

Reusing yeast may hardly look ineconomical (as long as no batch dumping involved), I think it's worth to try anyway. I'm much interested in reusing dry yeast and finding which are good for repitching and which are not, I haven't tried this with S-04 yet, so I should.
And with blending, I don't have to buy new yeasts, I already have them and hope to stretch their use. Substituting 1/2 to 1/4 of the total pitching weight with S-04 looks very economical. Again, an experiment worth to try.
I got some really insightful suggestions here, thank you gentlemen.

Wnen I'm richer and when yeast packs are cheaper I promise I will just dump down the plughole any yeast I happen to dislike

 

[bracconiere]

i really need to try this stuff now.....(sorry off topic)

 

[isomerization]

I did a fair bit of measurement and note taking on this a couple of years ago, and found S-04 consistently to give a very low finished beer pH (and accompanying tartness) in the first generation. Thereafter it's quite well behaved and makes nice beer. But I don't care to make a dumper just to harvest yeast for subsequent fermentations that I find satisfactory, no matter how many times I might repitch. I tried stepping it up through a couple of starters to see if that resulted in a better first generation fermentation, but no such luck.

Out of curiosity, did you use an airlock when propagating the S0-4? Might require yeast to deplete O2-based reserves, at least based on the 2nd gen statement.

 

[Robert65]

Out of curiosity, did you use an airlock when propagating the S0-4? Might require yeast to deplete O2-based reserves, at least based on the 2nd gen statement.

No, standard propagation procedure with continuous access to oxygen, so you might just be on to something.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Might require yeast to deplete O2-based reserves

Is there any biological reasoning behind this hypothesis?

 

[isomerization]

Is there any biological reasoning behind this hypothesis?

As in from the scientific literature? Not that I’ve searched for, but what is the prevailing wisdom regarding yeast performance changing after first generation fermentation? Old wives tales or real biological changes.

 

[brewbama]

I would put a pinch of baking soda in a glass of the tart beer and see if that calms it down. I mean you’re already at zero ...give it a shot. If it doesn’t work you’re out a pinch of baking soda. But if it does, scale up and dose the whole batch to salvage it.

 

[Protos]

I did it, putting soda in the glass. The tartness did mellow instantly, but overall it wasn't pleasant at all, my conclusion was it's better to let it stay tart than to get that new soda twang. Was thinking it might be different if I added some soda to the mash. But it makes sense to hear first if anyone has done this before with success.

 

[gunhaus]

Maybe add cider to your fermentation repertoire? I have noticed a lot of dislike for S-04 in beer in the forum, and at the same time a great deal of love for it as a cider yeast. I fall into that category myself. Cider can be an inexpensive and tasty way to utilize a yeast you don't like in beer.

 

[Protos]

Never thought of that. Sounds interesting.
How does S04 behave in cider, does it make it even more sour or doesn't make any difference in the already sour drink?

 

[waancho]

Resurrecting an old thread, but dry hopping increases pH. Without taking this into account, dry hopped beers are often lackluster. Maybe the lower pH from S-04 and the higher pH dry hopping are the perfect match?

 

[Miraculix]

Resurrecting an old thread, but dry hopping increases pH. Without taking this into account, dry hopped beers are often lackluster. Maybe the lower pH from S-04 and the higher pH dry hopping are the perfect match?

I think the s04 that is sold nowadays doesn't have this acidic thing going on anymore. Don't know what changed but it's almost like it's a different yeast.

 

[Dgallo]

Resurrecting an old thread, but dry hopping increases pH. Without taking this into account, dry hopped beers are often lackluster. Maybe the lower pH from S-04 and the higher pH dry hopping are the perfect match?

Dryhopped beer are lack luster? What? What beers have you had that dryhoping made it lack luster?

 

[Sipina]

I think the s04 that is sold nowadays doesn't have this acidic thing going on anymore. Don't know what changed but it's almost like it's a different yeast.

I have recently had two beers made by a friend of mine with SO4 that were really good with nice fruity english yeast profile.

 

[Witherby]

I think the s04 that is sold nowadays doesn't have this acidic thing going on anymore. Don't know what changed but it's almost like it's a different yeast.

Unfortunately I have to disagree. I just brewed a 1.037 dark mild (Maris Otter & flaked oats with small amounts of crystal 45 & 77 and Carafa Special I only in the vorlauf when mashing out, and invert #3 in the boil). I mashed at 152F/67C.

My Tilt was showing that the beer had dropped to 1.016 after 4 days and I decided to take a sample to test with a hydrometer and confirm. And of course I tasted the sample after. Weird twang/tartness. What temp did I ferment at, you ask? Pitched a fresh sachet of S04 (sprinkled on top) at 64F/18C and it rose to 66F/19C and then has dropped back to 64F/18C. Which is the very low end of what they recommend.

I found this thread because I was searching to see if anyone had successfully used baking soda to neutralize the tartness. This AHA forum thread seems to suggest that adding baking soda or chalk to an overly acidic finished beer can work, so I'll have to try it and report back:
Pinch of Baking Soda to reduce acid

 

[Miraculix]

Unfortunately I have to disagree. I just brewed a 1.037 dark mild (Maris Otter & flaked oats with small amounts of crystal 45 & 77 and Carafa Special I only in the vorlauf when mashing out, and invert #3 in the boil). I mashed at 152F/67C.

My Tilt was showing that the beer had dropped to 1.016 after 4 days and I decided to take a sample to test with a hydrometer and confirm. And of course I tasted the sample after. Weird twang/tartness. What temp did I ferment at, you ask? Pitched a fresh sachet of S04 (sprinkled on top) at 64F/18C and it rose to 66F/19C and then has dropped back to 64F/18C. Which is the very low end of what they recommend.

I found this thread because I was searching to see if anyone had successfully used baking soda to neutralize the tartness. This AHA forum thread seems to suggest that adding baking soda or chalk to an overly acidic finished beer can work, so I'll have to try it and report back:
Pinch of Baking Soda to reduce acid

Don't judge it just because of the sample from the fermenter. This can lead you into the completely wrong direction. I am drinking a s04 blonde bitter at the moment which also had this twang when bottling. At least I tasted it at that time. Don't know, but after carbing and three weeks in the bottle, no twang at all. I cannot tell if I tasted something which wasn't there or if it's gone now. Process wise, I made a starter with about 3g of yeast to remove the drying shock and this beer is remarkably clean and fresh tasting.

 

[corncob]

I also just brewed 2 beers with S-04 for the first time in years. Both cleared significantly on the third day. Both tasted downright sour a few days later, when I am accustomed to (normal) highly flocculant English yeast being done. Both lost the sourness, along with about one gravity point, over the following week, and then tasted fine. Both were fermented up to about 71 degrees and still had a little pleasant fruitiness after the sourness cleared up. Drinkable at 10-14 days, where I am used to putting an A-09 beer into a cask around day 7-8.

Seems strange, but it played out the same way twice in a row. The second batch was pitched with slurry from the first--zero lad (as opposed to over 12 hours) but otherwise tasted the same. Maybe the S-04 wants to be roused when it starts to floc out or something--I don't know. Maybe that's just how it behaves. Attenuation was 67% for the one mashed really high and 79% for the one mashed really low, which seems normal.

I will say that although both beers were delicious, I keep feeling like maybe I'm still tasting a tang sometimes. If it's real, it's very faint. My brain might be playing tricks on me. I can't tell.

 

[Witherby]

I also just brewed 2 beers with S-04 for the first time in years. Both cleared significantly on the third day. Both tasted downright sour a few days later, when I am accustomed to (normal) highly flocculant English yeast being done. Both lost the sourness, along with about one gravity point, over the following week, and then tasted fine. Both were fermented up to about 71 degrees and still had a little pleasant fruitiness after the sourness cleared up. Drinkable at 10-14 days, where I am used to putting an A-09 beer into a cask around day 7-8.

Seems strange, but it played out the same way twice in a row. The second batch was pitched with slurry from the first--zero lad (as opposed to over 12 hours) but otherwise tasted the same. Maybe the S-04 wants to be roused when it starts to floc out or something--I don't know. Maybe that's just how it behaves. Attenuation was 67% for the one mashed really high and 79% for the one mashed really low, which seems normal.

I will say that although both beers were delicious, I keep feeling like maybe I'm still tasting a tang sometimes. If it's real, it's very faint. My brain might be playing tricks on me. I can't tell.

Good to know that there is a chance the twang will go away.

Tilt says I am at 57% attenuation after 4 days. The sample I pulled was very clear. I do fear that the yeast has already flocced out, but I know I should let it do its thing.

Some threads say to ferment this yeast cool to prevent the twang. Others say that fermenting cool will cause the yeast to flocculate and underattenuate. My life is complicated enough. I don't think I need to bother with this yeast again!

 

[Dgallo]

Unfortunately I have to disagree. I just brewed a 1.037 dark mild (Maris Otter & flaked oats with small amounts of crystal 45 & 77 and Carafa Special I only in the vorlauf when mashing out, and invert #3 in the boil). I mashed at 152F/67C.

My Tilt was showing that the beer had dropped to 1.016 after 4 days and I decided to take a sample to test with a hydrometer and confirm. And of course I tasted the sample after. Weird twang/tartness. What temp did I ferment at, you ask? Pitched a fresh sachet of S04 (sprinkled on top) at 64F/18C and it rose to 66F/19C and then has dropped back to 64F/18C. Which is the very low end of what they recommend.

I found this thread because I was searching to see if anyone had successfully used baking soda to neutralize the tartness. This AHA forum thread seems to suggest that adding baking soda or chalk to an overly acidic finished beer can work, so I'll have to try it and report back:
Pinch of Baking Soda to reduce acid

This isn’t necessarily directed at you per se but for everyone. We can’t make claims about a specific yeast strain having a greater ph drop in fermentation (increasing acidity) without an accurate ph reading. There are many things that can cause off flavors that can be described as a twang.

 

[Miraculix]

Good to know that there is a chance the twang will go away.

Tilt says I am at 57% attenuation after 4 days. The sample I pulled was very clear. I do fear that the yeast has already flocced out, but I know I should let it do its thing.

Some threads say to ferment this yeast cool to prevent the twang. Others say that fermenting cool will cause the yeast to flocculate and underattenuate. My life is complicated enough. I don't think I need to bother with this yeast again!

Honestly, in my opinion s04 is one of the easiest yeasts to work with, as long as one doesn't try too hard to work with it, if this makes sense.

Just use enough healthy yeast and leave it at about 20c for at least seven days, bottle, that would be it.

 

[Miraculix]

This isn’t necessarily directed at you per se but for everyone. We can’t make claims about a specific yeast strain having a greater ph drop in fermentation (increasing acidity) without an accurate ph reading. There are many things that can cause off flavors that can be described as a twang.

It would be really interesting to see if the ph changes from "tasting tart from the fermenter" to "tasting normal after few weeks in the bottle".

 

[Genuine]

I've never picked up on this with S-04 so I'll have to see if I can be mindful the next time I brew with it. I happen to like it and haven't had any issues with it. Made a killer English Bitter with it a couple winters ago and compared it with Imperial's A09 Pub and really couldn't pick out a difference.