Quick Lager Method *UPDATED*

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TheMadKing said:
That's a crap load of Star San.. You might have a sour beer on your hands.
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We'll see. It was 99.99% water, with a splash starsan, I'm not too worried.

Next time, I'm wrapping the carboy mouth in foil. Can't fit an airlock in my mini fridge.
 
moreb33rplz said:
We'll see. It was 99.99% water, with a splash starsan, I'm not too worried.

Next time, I'm wrapping the carboy mouth in foil. Can't fit an airlock in my mini fridge.
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Ok, maybe not so bad then, but just FYI, star San doesn't do anything unless it's prepared in the proper concentration. It works by lowering the pH of water to below 3. If you make it weak enough that the pH is above 3 it will still allow a host of bacteria and mold to grow, so it's slightly pointless.
 
Posted this on another thread but figured I'd give this one a try as well

So I thought this would be a good place to ask my question...

For a lager, after the d-rest, while still at 60F, could you just transfer to the keg, hit with co2, cold crash/lager in the keg, server after x amount of time? Or, would cold crashing like this leave to much sediment in the keg? Or, first couple of pulls would be "yeasty" and the rest of the keg is gold?

Thanks in advance!
 
smAllGrain said:
Posted this on another thread but figured I'd give this one a try as well

So I thought this would be a good place to ask my question...

For a lager, after the d-rest, while still at 60F, could you just transfer to the keg, hit with co2, cold crash/lager in the keg, server after x amount of time? Or, would cold crashing like this leave to much sediment in the keg? Or, first couple of pulls would be "yeasty" and the rest of the keg is gold?

Thanks in advance!
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That process should work fine. By transferring it after the D rest, you'd basically be lagering it in a secondary fermenter ...which is the keg you'd serve from. You may have some sediment on the first glass, but that's true of many kegged homebrew beers, and shouldn't be a problem.

Good luck!
 
The process will work fine, but if you can crash it for 48 hours in the primary without moving it, why not do so? What you get into the keg will then be clearer and easier to rack, with less junk to discard on your first pulls. Seems a no-brainer, unless there's some logistical reason why dropping from 60 down to 35-40 without moving the primary vessel is impractical.
 
McKnuckle said:
The process will work fine, but if you can crash it for 48 hours in the primary without moving it, why not do so? What you get into the keg will then be clearer and easier to rack, with less junk to discard on your first pulls. Seems a no-brainer, unless there's some logistical reason why dropping from 60 down to 35-40 without moving the primary vessel is impractical.
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All this talk about pulling the liquid from the air lock & introducing air while lowering temps, I figured this would be a good way to avoid both
 
Ah. It's easy to avoid that problem, though, since you're aware of it. I will cut a piece of foil, spray it with sanitizer, and tightly fit it over the carboy opening. Then crash. After the 2 days, you can fit a solid bung (if leaving it there), or just rack it.
 
McKnuckle said:
Ah. It's easy to avoid that problem, though, since you're aware of it. I will cut a piece of foil, spray it with sanitizer, and tightly fit it over the carboy opening. Then crash. After the 2 days, you can fit a solid bung (if leaving it there), or just rack it.
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If I am using a bucket, should I empty the airlock, starsan the tinfoil, cover the airlock?
 
You can just take a piece of paper towel, soak it in StarSan, and jam it in the lid opening. No need for clean room level sanitation, just reasonable prevention at this stage.
 
A correctly filled airlock will not allow any StarSan (or other fill liquid) to suck back into the fermenter as the pressure inside drops because of lowering temperature. They will just bubble "backwards." An overfilled airlock will allow suck back until the overfill condition no longer exists.

Brew on :mug:
 
smAllGrain said:
Posted this on another thread but figured I'd give this one a try as well

So I thought this would be a good place to ask my question...

For a lager, after the d-rest, while still at 60F, could you just transfer to the keg, hit with co2, cold crash/lager in the keg, server after x amount of time? Or, would cold crashing like this leave to much sediment in the keg? Or, first couple of pulls would be "yeasty" and the rest of the keg is gold?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

You can certainly what you propose. And you might want to go just a bit higher than 60 for a d rest. But exact temp doesn't matter much.
 
doug293cz said:
A correctly filled airlock will not allow any StarSan (or other fill liquid) to suck back into the fermenter as the pressure inside drops because of lowering temperature. They will just bubble "backwards." An overfilled airlock will allow suck back until the overfill condition no longer exists.

Brew on :mug:
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You're correct for a multi-chamber, or bubble, airlock, but the 3-piece airlocks do not work that way
 
This quick lager method not good......... It just gets done too quick for lager. This leads to consuming it way too quick because it tastes so good. Thanks Brulosopher!
 
ZebulonBrewer said:
You're correct for a multi-chamber, or bubble, airlock, but the 3-piece airlocks do not work that way
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I just tested one of my 3-piece airlocks, and suck back stopped when the liquid level was about 3/16" below the lower "Fill Level" line. At that level, it operates as an airlock for flow in either direction. I measured max suck back from a 3-piece filled to the upper "Fill Level" line at about 1/3 of a fl oz. Unless you've got something toxic in your airlock, not a big deal.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
I just tested one of my 3-piece airlocks, and suck back stopped when the liquid level was about 3/16" below the lower "Fill Level" line. At that level, it operates as an airlock for flow in either direction. I measured max suck back from a 3-piece filled to the upper "Fill Level" line at about 1/3 of a fl oz. Unless you've got something toxic in your airlock, not a big deal.

Brew on :mug:
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Thanks for the running the test. I always appreciate data more than anecdotes (probably why we all read brulosophy.com). The main thing to watch is when you're using a blow-off!
 
Well the Czech pilsner I made using this method came out not very crisp and with more yeast on the nose than I'd like. I used 100% floor malted bohemian pilsner malt, 100% Czech Saaz hops, and Budvar yeast. Triple decoction mash.

I may have rushed it to chilling, only 5 days at diacetyl rest temperatures (none detected). Then crashed and gelatin within 3 days. Kegged and carbed. I'll let it sit, but it is brilliantly clear, so I don't know how much cleaner it can get now.

Next time I'll let it sit for a week or two before adding gelatin.
 
Is it possible that you ramped temps up too soon, before at least 50% attenuation?

This method works, but you need a properly pitched and clean ferment at lager temps until your get beyond the 50% attenuation mark before ramping temps up to ale temps to finish out.
 
The_Bishop said:
Is it possible that you ramped temps up too soon, before at least 50% attenuation?

This method works, but you need a properly pitched and clean ferment at lager temps until your get beyond the 50% attenuation mark before ramping temps up to ale temps to finish out.
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I think that could also be a possibility. I checked gravity a day before ramping up and was at 45% attenuation, so I figured I'd be good a day later. Yeast I pitched the recommended 1.5 M cells / ml / ° P, so I should be good there. I will say that even on the other beers I've done with the method I've been generally happy, but was not ever 100% happy with it. The next time I might wait until 60% attenuation to ramp up and try to ramp down a little more slowly.

I rushed this batch more so than others I have done using the method in order to submit it in time to a competition (which is idiotic now that I think about it, rushing a beer and thereby making it lower quality in order to get it judged). I'm not writing off the method, I think I made some mistakes and try to push it too far.

I do think that the idea that the beer is ready and perfect right after the D-rest is not really accurate. I think you need some cold conditioning for at least some time (maybe a week) if you really want clean tasting beer.

I'll find out in a few weeks how the beer fairs in competition. I submitted it to two separate ones, one at the end of April and the other the first week in May.

I plan to brew two helles simultaneously in about a month and will use this method again, with some more care this time. Again, this was the 6th or 7th time using this method, and I admit I rushed it a bit.
EDIT: I may make another starter of WY2000 and pitch it into the keg and allow it to lager for a week or two to see if that remedies the situation.
EDIT 2: Just saw that WY2000 flocs out at 37 already, so maybe my problem was the quick ramp down (pretty much dropped it in two steps), that didn't allow for the yeast to clean up.
 
I have a 1.070 Maibock that I pitched last Wednesday chugging at 52F currently. I plan to take a sample @ day 8 and see where I stand (hopefully at or past the 50% mark). Then plan to ramp up to 65F for another 8-10 days. I plan to cold crash/gelatin in the carboys for a week, transfer, then carb/lager for another week before serving. Hoping the beer comes out as well as I expect. If so, more lagers to come.
 
Went ahead and took a sample today and was @ 54% attenuation (pitched last Wednesday around 1700, so roughtly 6 days). So temp is raising as we speak and will check again in another 6-10 days for a FG.
 
doug293cz said:
A correctly filled airlock will not allow any StarSan (or other fill liquid) to suck back into the fermenter as the pressure inside drops because of lowering temperature. They will just bubble "backwards." An overfilled airlock will allow suck back until the overfill condition no longer exists.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

Technically, doesn't it cease being an "air" lock once oxygen is being sucked back into the fermentor?
 
KindofBlues71 said:
Technically, doesn't it cease being an "air" lock once oxygen is being sucked back into the fermentor?
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Kind of, but it still prevents free interdiffusion of outside air and the CO2 in the headspace, so limits the amount of O2 to that which gets sucked back. If there was just an opening to the atmosphere, eventually all the CO2 in the headspace would diffuse out, and be replaced by air.

Brew on :mug:
 
That makes sense to me!

Speaking of airlocks, has anyone tried those silicon bungs used by wine-ers? :D
 
The Brulosophy blog motivated me to try this out.

I have a Hoppy session pils fermenting right now. It's been 6 days (at around 52-53F), and the thick krausen is still there. I won't ramp up as long as the krausen is that thick.

OG 1.040
IBU 27 calculated
Saflager 34/70 yeast

Perle @ 45
Citra @ 15
Mt Hood @ 5

Thanks for the advice on the great blog!
 
Using Tasty's fast lager for the first time along with his Dortmunder recipe. OG was 1.056 with 1.013 estimated FG. So I should bump temp from 55F to 58F at 1.035. However, my 1.87L starter of WPL833 took off like a banshee (2 packs as both were three months old)...and 3 days post pitch I already blew by the half way point. I am at 1.023.

So the question is since I am already at the 75% attenuation point..should I skip the 58F rest and go right to the next temp step at 62F?
 
jdauria said:
Using Tasty's fast lager for the first time along with his Dortmunder recipe. OG was 1.056 with 1.013 estimated FG. So I should bump temp from 55F to 58F at 1.035. However, my 1.87L starter of WPL833 took off like a banshee (2 packs as both were three months old)...and 3 days post pitch I already blew by the half way point. I am at 1.023.

So the question is since I am already at the 75% attenuation point..should I skip the 58F rest and go right to the next temp step at 62F?
Click to expand...


I'd go up 3F every 12 hours until you're at 65F and leave it there. That's the "Brulosophy-ized" version.
 
I tried this with my first lager (1.046 German Pilsner with WLP833) and has great results. However when I let other people try they said they tasted hints of apple and pear. Granted these are not beer connoisseurs by any means, but it bothered me.
Can anyone guess why these flavors might be there?
 
TastyAdventure said:
I tried this with my first lager (1.046 German Pilsner with WLP833) and has great results. However when I let other people try they said they tasted hints of apple and pear. Granted these are not beer connoisseurs by any means, but it bothered me.
Can anyone guess why these flavors might be there?
Click to expand...

Do you taste that? Do you have a local homebrew shop where you can have the "experts" try it? If green apple, that is Acetaldehyde...which can be noted if the beer is too young, maybe more conditioning time needed. Pear can be an estery off flavor from too high of a fermentation temp.

What kind of hops did you use? There are a few hops that can give off pear notes and I know Equinox hops can give you apple notes. But I assume you used Noble hops for a German Pils.
 
TastyAdventure said:
I tried this with my first lager (1.046 German Pilsner with WLP833) and has great results. However when I let other people try they said they tasted hints of apple and pear. Granted these are not beer connoisseurs by any means, but it bothered me.
Can anyone guess why these flavors might be there?
Click to expand...


Dude, I'm fermenting a Pils with 833 now!
What was your fermentation schedule?
 
TastyAdventure said:
I tried this with my first lager (1.046 German Pilsner with WLP833) and has great results. However when I let other people try they said they tasted hints of apple and pear. Granted these are not beer connoisseurs by any means, but it bothered me.
Can anyone guess why these flavors might be there?
Click to expand...


Did you do the BCS recipe?
 
jdauria said:
Using Tasty's fast lager for the first time along with his Dortmunder recipe. OG was 1.056 with 1.013 estimated FG. So I should bump temp from 55F to 58F at 1.035. However, my 1.87L starter of WPL833 took off like a banshee (2 packs as both were three months old)...and 3 days post pitch I already blew by the half way point. I am at 1.023.

So the question is since I am already at the 75% attenuation point..should I skip the 58F rest and go right to the next temp step at 62F?
Click to expand...

My take on Tasty's method was to drive the yeast with temperature increases to keep it active. I would just move to the next step instead of skipping.

I use the Tasty method break points (50,75,90 percent to final gravity) for my lagers, but start off lower 50F and make 3 degree bumps at 50% and 75% then step to 61F at 90% for a diacetyl rest. So far for medium gravity beers(1050 to 1060) all of the yeast I have tried hit 50% in 36 to 48 hour post pitch, and take about another 24 to 36 hours to hit the other two break points.
 
jdauria said:
Do you taste that? Do you have a local homebrew shop where you can have the "experts" try it? If green apple, that is Acetaldehyde...which can be noted if the beer is too young, maybe more conditioning time needed. Pear can be an estery off flavor from too high of a fermentation temp.



What kind of hops did you use? There are a few hops that can give off pear notes and I know Equinox hops can give you apple notes. But I assume you used Noble hops for a German Pils.
Click to expand...


No, I don't really taste it, but I don't consider my palette to be the most discerning.

Just hallertau hops. I am going to take some to a local home brew club meeting on Monday.
 
Mer-man said:
Dude, I'm fermenting a Pils with 833 now!
What was your fermentation schedule?
Click to expand...


I'm excited to see how the WLP833 does in my doppelbock.
For the pils I built up my water for the first time with RO. Did you mess with your water chemistry at all?
 
I have water that is pretty good for brewing, except for the bicarbonate that I neutralise with phosphoric acid. Otherwise I'm at about 100ppm Ca, 65SO4, 50Cl, etc.

It will probably be good in a doppelbock. It is a bock yeast, after all. I used it in a dortmunder and it was impressively malty.
 
So I did 100% extra pale weyermann pils. Two days at 10c, 3 days at 14c, 4 days at 18c, 2 days at 14c, and then down to 4c for lagering and carbing , so far for about 2 weeks.
It's doughy and sweet grainy, vaguely like some champagne. No obvious diacetyl or dms but I will do a diacetyl test to check.
 

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