Quick Lager Method *UPDATED*

[wobdee]

where did this idea of higher temps causing diacetyl come from? Higher temps mean more active yeast which means reduced diacetyl. I don't often need to do d rests, due to pitching adequate quantities of healthy yeast, but when I do, 68-70 works just fine for me.

I don't know about higher temps causing diacetyl but I wonder if higher temps in the Ale range could cause Ale flavors if you do a D rest while fermentation is still pretty active at say 50-75% complete? I suppose it could depend on the yeast and or pitching rate.

 

[Denny]

I don't know about higher temps causing diacetyl but I wonder if higher temps in the Ale range could cause Ale flavors if you do a D rest while fermentation is still pretty active at say 50-75% complete? I suppose it could depend on the yeast and or pitching rate.

That has not been my experience.

 

[SpeedYellow]

where did this idea of higher temps causing diacetyl come from? Higher temps mean more active yeast which means reduced diacetyl. I don't often need to do d rests, due to pitching adequate quantities of healthy yeast, but when I do, 68-70 works just fine for me.

Seems commonly accepted that higher temps create more diacetyl, but OTOH it also helps the yeast reduce it more quickly. Some examples:

1) White Labs. link "Fermentation parameters that effect diacetyl levels are temperature and aeration. High fermentation temperatures promote diacetyl production, and low aeration levels when yeast is pitched will produce less healthy yeast, which are prone to higher diacetyl production."

2) Fermentis. link "Using higher temperatures for your brew will increase the ester and diacetyl formation."

3) BYO mag. link . "Temperature. Higher temperatures lead to more diacetyl formation. For example, a lager beer that is fermented at 57° F can produce up to three times as much diacetyl as a similar beer fermented at 40° F."

4) Study in Journal of the Institute of Brewing. link . See Figure 6. Also: "Firstly, since diacetyl production and consumption rates increase with temperature; as well as the fact that the final diacetyl concentrations are quite similar in all the cases examined,... these small variations may introduce major differences in the flavour of the beer."

5) Article in Institute of Brewing, "Diacetyl and its control...".link . "Increased fermentation temperatures lead to higher initial diacetyl production rates as a consequence of increased yeast growth, but also produce more yeast mass to reduce the diacetyl to 2,3-butanediol and increase the reaction rate of the oxidative decarboxylation of α-acetolactate to diacetyl..."

 

[Denny]

Seems commonly accepted that higher temps create more diacetyl, but OTOH it also helps the yeast reduce it more quickly. Some examples:

1) White Labs. link "Fermentation parameters that effect diacetyl levels are temperature and aeration. High fermentation temperatures promote diacetyl production, and low aeration levels when yeast is pitched will produce less healthy yeast, which are prone to higher diacetyl production."

2) Fermentis. link "Using higher temperatures for your brew will increase the ester and diacetyl formation."

3) BYO mag. link . "Temperature. Higher temperatures lead to more diacetyl formation. For example, a lager beer that is fermented at 57° F can produce up to three times as much diacetyl as a similar beer fermented at 40° F."

4) Study in Journal of the Institute of Brewing. link . See Figure 6. Also: "Firstly, since diacetyl production and consumption rates increase with temperature; as well as the fact that the final diacetyl concentrations are quite similar in all the cases examined,... these small variations may introduce major differences in the flavour of the beer."

5) Article in Institute of Brewing, "Diacetyl and its control...".link . "Increased fermentation temperatures lead to higher initial diacetyl production rates as a consequence of increased yeast growth, but also produce more yeast mass to reduce the diacetyl to 2,3-butanediol and increase the reaction rate of the oxidative decarboxylation of α-acetolactate to diacetyl..."

I guess that since I ferment lagers at low temps it just hasn't been a problem for me. I do raise the temp at the end of fermentation to maybe 70ish, but by that time there is no diacetyl production, only cleanup.

 

[ArcLight]

I guess that since I ferment lagers at low temps it just hasn't been a problem for me. I do raise the temp at the end of fermentation to maybe 70ish, but by that time there is no diacetyl production, only cleanup.

Denny,
At what point do you raise the temperature?
50% complete?
65%?

(Do you do a fast ferment test to know what to expect as a final gravity?)

 

[Brulosopher]

My thumbs are too fat to get it in my reply.

Can relate, very nuxh.

 

[JPrather]

To add my handful of data points, I recently finished up my first set of lagers using this method. All were medium gravity (1.048-1.056) beers fermented with WLP833.

All beers were pitched at ~50deg for 3 days, followed by 2-3 days at 55, and a week at ~65. All were then cold crashed to 34-38 degrees for 5-7 days with gelatin added after they were cold for about a day.

All give came out fantastic to my palette and those of more experienced drinkers/brewers than me.

Additionally, I entered a few of them in competition (each bottle conditioned 3-5 weeks at room temp followed by at least a week in the fridge).

Out of 8 scoresheets, all scored between 38-43. All scored a 5 out of 5 on mouthfeel. No off-flavors or "wrong" yeast flavors were reported on any of them. The little bit that the beers were dinged were on things that were entirely ingredient dependent (level of maltiness/hop flavor/etc).

So, I'm definitely a believer, and will probably experiment with pushing the similar boundaries on my hybrid and cooler ale fermentations.

 

[tagz]

Dang. Nice scores. That's definitely convincing.

 

[g-star]

I can add a few more data points. My pale and dark lagers routinely score in the mid 30's+ with this method. I had a dunkel in the final round of the NHC with this fermentation approach....scored a 38 in the first round.

 

[Denny]

Denny,
At what point do you raise the temperature?
50% complete?
65%?

(Do you do a fast ferment test to know what to expect as a final gravity?)

No FFT. I've got enough experience and brew tested recipes at this point, so I pretty much know what to expect. I go more by time than gravity. I give it 5-7 days at low temp, then bump it up a few degrees a day for a week, then let it sit at 70 for a couple days.

 

[oujens]

The temp swings have been purported by some to be a cause of off flavors. My guess is your beer will be fine. Cheers!


I took a hydro sample to taste for diacetyl on day ten after I had kept it around 65 for 3 days. Beer went from 1.055 down to 1.010 in ten days. Continued D rest for 2 days even though the sample tasted good. I didn't detect anything funky, so we will see. Had a nice malty flavor with some bitterness that I hope will fade or clean up when lagering. Currently in the keg lagering. Fingers crossed. If not I have two jars of slurry ready for action.

 

[Brulosopher]

To add my handful of data points, I recently finished up my first set of lagers using this method. All were medium gravity (1.048-1.056) beers fermented with WLP833.

All beers were pitched at ~50deg for 3 days, followed by 2-3 days at 55, and a week at ~65. All were then cold crashed to 34-38 degrees for 5-7 days with gelatin added after they were cold for about a day.

All give came out fantastic to my palette and those of more experienced drinkers/brewers than me.

Additionally, I entered a few of them in competition (each bottle conditioned 3-5 weeks at room temp followed by at least a week in the fridge).

Out of 8 scoresheets, all scored between 38-43. All scored a 5 out of 5 on mouthfeel. No off-flavors or "wrong" yeast flavors were reported on any of them. The little bit that the beers were dinged were on things that were entirely ingredient dependent (level of maltiness/hop flavor/etc).

So, I'm definitely a believer, and will probably experiment with pushing the similar boundaries on my hybrid and cooler ale fermentations.

Nice work!

 

[j1n]

Just used the quick lager method on a Vienna Lager brewed not to long ago. just tapped the keg last night. i think it came out perfect. Will use this method for all my lagers.

 

[Brulosopher]

Just used the quick lager method on a Vienna Lager brewed not to long ago. just tapped the keg last night. i think it came out perfect. Will use this method for all my lagers.

Rad! Care to share the Vienna recipe and tasting notes? That's my white whale of late

 

[j1n]

Its not my recipe, i grabbed it off the recipe section. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=147772

I used WLP838 with it.

 

[superdave12]

I tried this method for the first time about a month ago. it was a total disaster. why? I use better bottles and the extreme cold crashing caused the volume to contract and crush in the sides of my better bottle like a smashed beer can. luckily it did not crack, but to get it to pop back out I had to pull out the stopper which violently decompressed everything. I couldn't have shook it up more if I hit it with my car. lesson learned, next time I transfer to a keg before lagering.

Good to know. I was just about to try my brand new Big Mouth Bubbler with a siphon for my Helles Bock. I'll stick with my carboy!

 

[TheMadKing]

Making my first Vienna lager and using the quick lager method for the first time. It's 4 days into primary and I took a gravity sample and I'm already to 50% attenuation, so I've started ramping the temp. It seemed a little quick at first until I remember that I pitched about 500 billion cells. I couldn't detect any diacetyl from the gravity sample. I suspect that people struggling with diacetyl production should look at their initial pitching temps, since the lag and growth phase occur very rapidly after pitching. I made sure that I pitched when the wort was below 55F, and that seems to have prevented any issues thus far.

I'm curious though Marshall, how did you arrive at the "50% attenuation" point for ramping temp? Why not 20% or 75%?

From what I've read, the reason that it's okay to finish primary fermentation at warmer temps is because the majority of diacetyl, esters, and phenols are produced during oxygen metabolism and budding in the lag and growth phase. If that's the case then, we should theoretically be able to start ramping the temp as soon as the oxygen is gone and the yeast is at saturation, so around 10-20% of attention. Have you done any xbmts in regards to this variable?

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

never mind, I found the answer I was looking for in another comment.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I am about to try a lager for the first time, I have been brewing for almost a year now and I have been dying to do this style as they tend to be my favorite beers. But..after reading your webpage I went to the website to check out your recipe kit and it says ale yeast....does this process work with only ale yeast or do you use lager yeast as well? I really want to make a bad arse Helles one of my fav beers is Spaten, please advise!!

He advised use of this method for lager yeasts, so yeah. I do something like this (not as quick as he recommends) for my lagers and they turn out great.

 

[TheMadKing]

I have a caprylic acid bomb from following this method. I suspect that either I didn't pitch enough cells (unlikely), or I should have racked the yeast into a keg sooner. I deviated from the method by allowing the primary to sit at 68 for 16 days to dry hop instead of 10. My yeast began to autolyze and now I have a soap and coconut flavored Vienna lager. I'm continuing to lager it, so hopefully it becomes drinkable. I will definitely be paying more attention to getting my beer off the trub sooner for my next lager.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I have a caprylic acid bomb from following this method. I suspect that either I didn't pitch enough cells (unlikely), or I should have racked the yeast into a keg sooner. I deviated from the method by allowing the primary to sit at 68 for 16 days to dry hop instead of 10. My yeast began to autolyze and now I have a soap and coconut flavored Vienna lager. I'm continuing to lager it, so hopefully it becomes drinkable. I will definitely be paying more attention to getting my beer off the trub sooner for my next lager.

It is not really fair to other readers for you to start by saying "I have a caprylic acid bomb from following this method."

Just to move on and say that you deviated from said method. I am actually going to try this process this weekend and for the first time and have been following this thread closely. So...as they say on here. Don't do that.

 

[The_Bishop]

@TheMadKing The only reason your beer didn't turn out right is you deviated from the process. The process is not flawed; your execution of it was.

 

[gometz]

I get the feeling that even with 16 days of high temperature rest you still have another issue. I've never heard caprylic acid being described as soap and coconut, more goat, cheesy, and fatty.

If what you have is caprylic/octanoic acid, then that would be due to stressed yeast or autolysis. I don't think an extra 6 days at 68*F would give you a substantial amount of autolysis, so I would assume that something about your yeast is really unhappy. Yeast is happier at warmer temperatures anyways (during the fermentation phase at least), so warm fermentation of a lager yeast wouldn't stress it (you pitch more into a lager in order to avoid stressing the yeast at cold temperatures). On top of that, people regularly leave beers in primary for 3-4 weeks to no ill effect.

On thing I have noticed is that if you don't have enough sulfates dry hops can come out tasting a bit soapy, so it could be your water?

(Also, if you happened to be using HBC-438, it tastes like a mixture of overripe bananas and coconut.)

 

[TheMadKing]

I get the feeling that even with 16 days of high temperature rest you still have another issue. I've never heard caprylic acid being described as soap and coconut, more goat, cheesy, and fatty.

If what you have is caprylic/octanoic acid, then that would be due to stressed yeast or autolysis. I don't think an extra 6 days at 68*F would give you a substantial amount of autolysis, so I would assume that something about your yeast is really unhappy. Yeast is happier at warmer temperatures anyways (during the fermentation phase at least), so warm fermentation of a lager yeast wouldn't stress it (you pitch more into a lager in order to avoid stressing the yeast at cold temperatures). On top of that, people regularly leave beers in primary for 3-4 weeks to no ill effect.

On thing I have noticed is that if you don't have enough sulfates dry hops can come out tasting a bit soapy, so it could be your water?

(Also, if you happened to be using HBC-438, it tastes like a mixture of overripe bananas and coconut.)

Thanks, I didn't think an extra 6 days of d-rest was enough "deviation" to warrant the two above comments from others, considering I've left beers in primary for 5 weeks without issue. I agree that something other than a 6 day extended D-rest is to blame.

I used the Wy bohemian lager strain which I've never used before, but coconut isn't in its list of flavor characteristics.

I recently performed a BJCP flavor sensory analysis kit, and this beer tastes exactly like the caprylic acid in that kit. I'm 99% sure it's that. Caprylic acid is also naturally contained in coconuts in high concentration, so that's one of the flavors it can convey.

I just don't understand what I did that stressed my yeast that badly. It's also mellowing as it lagers a bit and there's less yeast in suspension, so maybe it will age out. When I first racked to the keg it was undrinkable, now it tastes like a vienna lager with a hint of coconut haha. Well next time I'll decrease my D-rest to 10 days and keg more promptly, and we'll see if that fixes it.

 

[TheMadKing]

@TheMadKing The only reason your beer didn't turn out right is you deviated from the process. The process is not flawed; your execution of it was.

I never claimed that this process was flawed, and that's a very bold statement considering that you don't know any of the other variables in my process. Sheesh, I'll be more careful how I phrase things next time.

I wouldn't call what I did "deviating from the method" I merely waited 6 extra days before kegging. I have never brewed any other beer where a 6 day window was all I had to avoid off flavors, so I highly doubt that my "deviation" was the issue. I fermented at 52 until I reached 50% attenuation, then step warmed to 68 and held there. This should not have killed my yeast. Something else that I did must be to blame.

 

[UndeadFred]

It is actually rather interesting if you read around at the various variants of Marshall's method (or "Tasty's" or even before then historically) the actual amount of time you are supposed to do a diacetyl rest varies in those different instructions from 4 days to almost 14. So, who knows? I would imagine that a week is plenty in any case. After that you are likely wasting time you could be lagering.

I'm not an expert though by any measure. My first lager (this method) was a really nice tasting Green Apple (acetaldehyde) Yuengling clone.. but I suspect that two packets of W34/70 weren't enough, despite everyone always saying is. I did a BIG starter this time. I'll know in a couple of days...

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Thanks, I didn't think an extra 6 days of d-rest was enough "deviation" to warrant the two above comments from others, considering I've left beers in primary for 5 weeks without issue. I agree that something other than a 6 day extended D-rest is to blame.

I used the Wy bohemian lager strain which I've never used before, but coconut isn't in its list of flavor characteristics.

I recently performed a BJCP flavor sensory analysis kit, and this beer tastes exactly like the caprylic acid in that kit. I'm 99% sure it's that. Caprylic acid is also naturally contained in coconuts in high concentration, so that's one of the flavors it can convey.

I just don't understand what I did that stressed my yeast that badly. It's also mellowing as it lagers a bit and there's less yeast in suspension, so maybe it will age out. When I first racked to the keg it was undrinkable, now it tastes like a vienna lager with a hint of coconut haha. Well next time I'll decrease my D-rest to 10 days and keg more promptly, and we'll see if that fixes it.

I apologize if I came off rough, no hard feelings were all just trying to make better beer.

 

[The_Bishop]

If I came across as harsh, that was not my intent. My apologies.

That being said, the very first sentence of your post was pretty directly condemning:

I have a caprylic acid bomb from following this method.

16 days at 68 degrees *may* have caused some autolysis depending on a few factors such as yeast health, alcohol content, or the method of heating might have been very concentrated on the yeast cake.

However, autolysis usually comes across as meaty, rubbery or soy-sauce.

Caprylic acid can be an off flavor due to old/badly stored hops. If you have any of the hops you used left, you could smell them to see if they're cheesy.

I never claimed that this process was flawed, and that's a very bold statement considering that you don't know any of the other variables in my process. Sheesh, I'll be more careful how I phrase things next time.

I wouldn't call what I did "deviating from the method" I merely waited 6 extra days before kegging. I have never brewed any other beer where a 6 day window was all I had to avoid off flavors, so I highly doubt that my "deviation" was the issue. I fermented at 52 until I reached 50% attenuation, then step warmed to 68 and held there. This should not have killed my yeast. Something else that I did must be to blame.

 

[gometz]

long quote

I yield to your superior sensory knowledge.

The only thing I can think of is that the yeast must have been bad somehow. I've made 5 beers with this method that were well received (my mother's father was a Brewer and she liked them), all with WLP860 (in fact the same vial from last year. I make my starters big enough to harvest a vial each time). I'm fermenting a pilsner right now with WY2000 and it seems to be doing well.

Did you pitch cold? Use a heating pad?

 

[MattyIce]

So is it established somewhere that a few weeks at 68F causes autolysis? I strongly doubt this is anything close to the truth.

 

[TheMadKing]

I apologize if I came off rough, no hard feelings were all just trying to make better beer.

No worries sorry if I was a bit grumpy with you and @The_Bishop

 

[TheMadKing]

I yield to your superior sensory knowledge.

The only thing I can think of is that the yeast must have been bad somehow. I've made 5 beers with this method that were well received (my mother's father was a Brewer and she liked them), all with WLP860 (in fact the same vial from last year. I make my starters big enough to harvest a vial each time). I'm fermenting a pilsner right now with WY2000 and it seems to be doing well.

Did you pitch cold? Use a heating pad?

I agree that I must have done something to damage my yeast. I just heated by letting it warm to 68 naturally over 4 days by stepping up my controller by 4 degrees each day. I don't have a heater in my ferm chamber, so it was fairly slow.

I'm stumped but either way I'll adhere to the prescribed method more carefully next time just to make sure it wasn't that

 

[gometz]

I agree that I must have done something to damage my yeast. I just heated by letting it warm to 68 naturally over 4 days by stepping up my controller by 4 degrees each day. I don't have a heater in my ferm chamber, so it was fairly slow.

I'm stumped but either way I'll adhere to the prescribed method more carefully next time just to make sure it wasn't that

Strange. I would almost lean towards there being an issue with the yeast you got. Maybe bad storage at the store.

 

[TheMadKing]

Strange. I would almost lean towards there being an issue with the yeast you got. Maybe bad storage at the store.

Could be, but I made a stepped starter and pitched about 500b cells.

 

[Denny]

So is it established somewhere that a few weeks at 68F causes autolysis? I strongly doubt this is anything close to the truth.

No it hasn't been. Anecdotal evidence and my own experience confirms that it's not a problem.

 

[moreb33rplz]

My lager is getting bottled this weekend after 7 weeks in primary. I'll let you know how it turns out!

...also sucked up about 20 oz of starsan water. Yummers!

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

My lager is getting bottled this weekend after 7 weeks in primary. I'll let you know how it turns out!

...also sucked up about 20 oz of starsan water. Yummers!

I forgot they do this in the fridge while crashing, do you know how to prevent this?

 

[MattyIce]

I forgot they do this in the fridge while crashing, do you know how to prevent this?

No benefit to having a blowoff beyond the initial phase of active fermentation. If you do want to leave the blowoff attached through cold crashing, just make sure the blowoff jug is sitting as low as practical compared to your fermentor.

 

[TheMadKing]

I forgot they do this in the fridge while crashing, do you know how to prevent this?

Remove the blow-off and cover your carboy with aluminum foil right before you cold crash. If you're using a bucket just plug the airlock hole in the lid with Saran wrap.

Another option is to remove the blow-off and replace it with an airlock full of vodka. Won't risk messing up the flavor of your beer as much.

 

[TheMadKing]

My lager is getting bottled this weekend after 7 weeks in primary. I'll let you know how it turns out!

...also sucked up about 20 oz of starsan water. Yummers!

That's a crap load of Star San.. You might have a sour beer on your hands.