Lacto Sour with L Plantarum Caps

[bruhaha]

I have been using Omega OYL-605 to kettle sour beers with stellar results. The downside of this lacto is the cost.

I am preparing an order with Swanson where I'll get free shipping. They sell L Plantarum caps that I understand can work as a cheaper alternative souring lacto. Has anyone used these caps? If so, how many caps will I pitch 5.5G and do I crush them? Is it like the 605 where 75-90F is about right?

Thanks!!

 

[bruhaha]

any advice?

 

[KobiGirreven]

Why not just get a growler and keep a constant culture of the Omega OYL-605? Just feed it a few days before you need it and use half. Feed. Split. Repeat. I try to do this with all of my yeasts and save tons of money on brett, lacto, and saison yeast.

 

[crane]

I haven't used the Swanson capsules yet but I did just buy some. I have read on another thread on here that some will use one capsule per gallon. One guy said he just tosses them directly into the fermenter. Another guy said he cuts into the capsule and pours out the powder into the fermenter.

Not sure about the temperatures question though

 

[bruhaha]

I haven't used the Swanson capsules yet but I did just buy some. I have read on another thread on here that some will use one capsule per gallon. One guy said he just tosses them directly into the fermenter. Another guy said he cuts into the capsule and pours out the powder into the fermenter.

Not sure about the temperatures question though

Ok I'll try the 5 cap per 5G batch ratio and see how that works. To speed things up a bit, I may build a starter to have the bacteria aggressively multiplying so when it hits the wort it is off to the races. If L Plantarum caps are anything like Omegas liquid L Plantarum lacto (I assume they react the same), 75-90F should work ok. This will be an experiment for sure, and if it works, I can do 6 batches of lacto sour for $4.50 worth of caps.

 

[ptownbmac]

Don't know when you're brewing so this may not be in time to help.

Have a kegged batch soured with these that should be ready in 10-12 days. Wife tasted when I transferred to the keg and reported it was solidly sour. It was at room temp and uncarbonated so tough to gauge how that will translate to final results.

I made a 500 ml starter with 4 capsules, pitched that and then added contents of a few more capsules when I kettle soured. Starter didn't taste particularly sour but now I think that's more because it hadn't been fermented.

Temp wise, I cooled to around 100, then put the kettle into my brew bag (insulated soft cooler) with towels wrapped around it x 2 days before reheating to kill the lacto. Don't have a ph meter.

The capsules pull apart very easily. Can't see a reason to add the capsule coating to your beer.

 

[Rhetoric]

I opened and poured 4 caps into 1 L of apple juice and let it go for a week. I brewed up my wort and added all of the "starter" to it at about 110 F and let the temp fall to ambient in my garage, about 85 F. At 24 hours the co2 that was off gassing generated enough foam to push out of my air lock. At 48 hours I am chilling it to pitch my yeast.

However, I took a gravity reading and it had dropped 29 points, 1.044 down to 1.015. It tastes good and had no off flavors, but it was still visibly off gassing. I have a feeling I picked up an oddly clean wild yeast, or perhaps Lacto p is far more aggressive than I had imagined.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

I opened and poured 4 caps into 1 L of apple juice and let it go for a week. I brewed up my wort and added all of the "starter" to it at about 110 F and let the temp fall to ambient in my garage, about 85 F. At 24 hours the co2 that was off gassing generated enough foam to push out of my air lock. At 48 hours I am chilling it to pitch my yeast.

However, I took a gravity reading and it had dropped 29 points, 1.044 down to 1.015. It tastes good and had no off flavors, but it was still visibly off gassing. I have a feeling I picked up an oddly clean wild yeast, or perhaps Lacto p is far more aggressive than I had imagined.

Yeah, you picked up something! Considering how fast it chewed down your gravity, and you don't taste anything off, I'd let it ride the way it is now. Don't add your yeast. Sometimes spontaneous events are the best, and experimenting is the best part of homebrewing!

 

[ShareBrewing]

According to Michael Tonsmeire's book, one can produce a 100% Lacto fermented beer. It all depends on if the strain of Lacto is homo- or herero-fermentative. Homo- means it only makes lactic acid and CO2, while hetero- strains also produce alcohol and some other various esters/bi-products.

Having used L Plantarum in my Berliner Weisse beers, I can agree that this is an aggressive Lacto strain. I wouldn't recommend leaving it for more than 20 hours or so. A 1.5L starter of OYL605 dropped 14 gal of B. Weisse from a pH of 5.20 to 3.50 in only 16.5 hours time. Omega Labs recommends a fermentation time of only 12-18 hours. It did appear to drop my gravity only slightly (~0.002) but left to its own devices for over a day, I wouldn't be surprised if it consumed more sugar in the wort.

 

[Rhetoric]

k1ngl1ves and ShareBrewing, thank you for the support! I am very interested in where this will go, as I had not expected it. I intend to see how low the sg will drop and decide whether or not to boost it with Wlp 644 to dry it out more.

If nothing else, maybe it will be a bit of a cautionary tale for OP or anyone else searching for Lacto p caplet advice!

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I swear I responded to you on another thread, but perhaps not.

I use the Swanson's L. Plantarum for fermenter sours all the time and have excellent luck with them.

Don't waste your time and money making a starter, it is absolutely not needed here. 1 pill per gallon (which is actually overkill), and chuck them straight in. You can open them up if you want, but I've posted tests on MTF that show they do dissolve in wort.

If you insist on making a starter you should use a stir plate on its very lowest setting (or shake it often), an airlock, and add chalk to keep the pH low and encourage growth.

I start mine @100F, and just let the temp free fall over 24-48 hours, and it works every time.

I love Michael, am a huge fan, just signed up for a class with him, but unfortunately that particular part of his book is wrong. Most likely he had a yeast infection with his lacto, as new research shows that no 100% pure strain of lacto can't attenuate more than about 11%. He even brings this up on his blog here.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I opened and poured 4 caps into 1 L of apple juice and let it go for a week. I brewed up my wort and added all of the "starter" to it at about 110 F and let the temp fall to ambient in my garage, about 85 F. At 24 hours the co2 that was off gassing generated enough foam to push out of my air lock. At 48 hours I am chilling it to pitch my yeast.

However, I took a gravity reading and it had dropped 29 points, 1.044 down to 1.015. It tastes good and had no off flavors, but it was still visibly off gassing. I have a feeling I picked up an oddly clean wild yeast, or perhaps Lacto p is far more aggressive than I had imagined.

Ran into that problem twice trying to brew Berliners. I think the pills, and probably bottle itself, are covered in all kinds of random crap because it's the only time I've ever had the issue. I doubt they care if their probiotics have wild yeast on them because it'd make no difference for people eating the pills. Unfortunately though that doesn't quite cut it when your making beer. I do believe people get good results using the pills but I know first hand it's a roll of the dice. I moved to pure pitches from labs after that and it's been a great choice.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Ran into that problem twice trying to brew Berliners. I think the pills, and probably bottle itself, are covered in all kinds of random crap because it's the only time I've ever had the issue. I doubt they care if their probiotics have wild yeast on them because it'd make no difference for people eating the pills. Unfortunately though that doesn't quite cut it when your making beer. I do believe people get good results using the pills but I know first hand it's a roll of the dice. I moved to pure pitches from labs after that and it's been a great choice.

Interesting. Have you tried opening up the capsule and just putting in the powder?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Interesting. Have you tried opening up the capsule and just putting in the powder?

At this point I honestly can't even remember. I just remember being pissed off painfully dumping all that beer lol. It taught me something though. Whatever it is your using make a damn starter and make sure it checks out first because it beats the hell out of dumping a bad batch.

 

[MizzouFermentationScience]

Get creative, spit in your fermentor and leave it outside for a few days. Drop a little sauerkraut in secondary. LABs are everywhere for free.

 

[sancycling]

I've used the Plantarum from Swanson (bought through Amazon). I rehydrated 6 pills and pitched them into wort at 100F (adjusted PH to 4.5). I did not get any PH drop for 48 hrs, but got some kraussen. Then I dumped the contents of 10 pills in the wort and in 48 hrs PH had dropped to 3.6, I did get a gravity drop from around 1.054 to 1.049. At that moment I boiled and then pitched US05.
The end results were ok, I'm drinking the beer but it has a lot of DMS flavor, cream corn. I think leaving the wort at 100F while Lacto does it's job produces a bunch of DMS and even with a long boil I could not get rid of it. Next time I'll try to produce lactic acid at room temp to avoid DMS.

 

[mitchard]

I've used the Plantarum from Swanson (bought through Amazon). I rehydrated 6 pills and pitched them into wort at 100F (adjusted PH to 4.5). I did not get any PH drop for 48 hrs, but got some kraussen. Then I dumped the contents of 10 pills in the wort and in 48 hrs PH had dropped to 3.6, I did get a gravity drop from around 1.054 to 1.049. At that moment I boiled and then pitched US05.
The end results were ok, I'm drinking the beer but it has a lot of DMS flavor, cream corn. I think leaving the wort at 100F while Lacto does it's job produces a bunch of DMS and even with a long boil I could not get rid of it. Next time I'll try to produce lactic acid at room temp to avoid DMS.

Keeping anything being soured with Plantarum at 100 is absolutely unnecessary. With a carton of Goodbelly into 5 to 10 gallons, I get a drop to 3.2-3.3 at 70f within 72 hours.

 

[snowveil]

I've made two 10 gallon batches of L. Plantarum (swanson) kettle sours that have turned out great. @drgonzo2k2 sounds like he's got more experience than I do, but I'll pitch in my 2 cents.

Both times I made 2L starters (for 10 gallons) using about 50/50 DME/Sugar, and covered the starter with cling wrap to prevent oxygen ingress. I mashed & sparged as normal for a 1040-50ish 80/20 pils/wheat recipe, then brought it up to a boil. Chill down to 100*F ish, pitch the lacto starter, then let it ride and cool down naturally over the course of about 48 hours. After the 48 hour mark, bring the wort up to a boil, and if you want to add boil hops just add them at the end of the boil. Some people will mention success with "no boil" recipes but I've personally tasted some with massive DMS (cooked corn) character....it may depend on your palate. I have no issue doing a full 60 minute boil just to be safe. No hops is totally fine....you don't want to compete the acidity with bitterness. Also, keep in mind if you taste the wort that's been acidified with Lacto will certainly taste MUCH more sour once fermented. Wort that hasn't been fermented by yeast yet will have a big sweetness to cancel/balance out the acidity of the lacto.

Ferment with a relatively clean ale yeast ideally....though I've used WLP644 Sacch "Brett" Trois with success as well. Simple kettle sours like this are KILLER with fruit additions in the secondary. I've done Pluots in batch and Apricots in another with success. My Pluot kettle sour keg kicked at NHC club night in Baltimore this year. If you want to dry hop, go for that too, but shoot for new-school fruity/citrusy hops to compliment the flavors you get from the lacto. I've found the L. Plantarum capsules give you a really nice pineapple/citrus character to the acidity.

Cheers

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I think leaving the wort at 100F while Lacto does it's job produces a bunch of DMS and even with a long boil I could not get rid of it. Next time I'll try to produce lactic acid at room temp to avoid DMS.

100F is not sufficient to decompose SMS into DMS.

If you're certain you have a DMS problem you should look at your boil and your chill times.

If your boil your beer you want to go at least 30 minutes at a pretty vigorous boil. When chilling you want to get it below 175F as quickly as possible, preferably with the lid off.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I've made two 10 gallon batches of L. Plantarum (swanson) kettle sours that have turned out great. @drgonzo2k2 sounds like he's got more experience than I do, but I'll pitch in my 2 cents.

Both times I made 2L starters (for 10 gallons) using about 50/50 DME/Sugar, and covered the starter with cling wrap to prevent oxygen ingress. I mashed & sparged as normal for a 1040-50ish 80/20 pils/wheat recipe, then brought it up to a boil. Chill down to 100*F ish, pitch the lacto starter, then let it ride and cool down naturally over the course of about 48 hours. After the 48 hour mark, bring the wort up to a boil, and if you want to add boil hops just add them at the end of the boil. Some people will mention success with "no boil" recipes but I've personally tasted some with massive DMS (cooked corn) character....it may depend on your palate. I have no issue doing a full 60 minute boil just to be safe. No hops is totally fine....you don't want to compete the acidity with bitterness. Also, keep in mind if you taste the wort that's been acidified with Lacto will certainly taste MUCH more sour once fermented. Wort that hasn't been fermented by yeast yet will have a big sweetness to cancel/balance out the acidity of the lacto.

Ferment with a relatively clean ale yeast ideally....though I've used WLP644 Sacch "Brett" Trois with success as well. Simple kettle sours like this are KILLER with fruit additions in the secondary. I've done Pluots in batch and Apricots in another with success. My Pluot kettle sour keg kicked at NHC club night in Baltimore this year. If you want to dry hop, go for that too, but shoot for new-school fruity/citrusy hops to compliment the flavors you get from the lacto. I've found the L. Plantarum capsules give you a really nice pineapple/citrus character to the acidity.

Cheers

+1000 on going with fruit or dry hop additions (or both) for these types of beers. I've had some excellent results doing that. I took BOS at this year's Walk on the Wildside with my no-boil L. Plantarum sour that was dry hopped with Citra and Mosaic.

On the DMS and no boil though, I'd have to say I've not encountered that, and it's actually more likely that no boil beers would have less DMS that improperly handled boiled beers.

SMS > DMS conversion occurs extremely slowly at temps under 200F, and DMS itself is pretty volatile at temps between 125F > 212F, so folks going to the 161 - 180F ranges you see quoted for no boil beers should be doing pretty well to avoid DMS.

 

[macaronijones]

How long does it take yall to sour with these capsules? Sprinkled 1 in 1 gallon of wort and the pH didn't budge in 24 hours. Added a second about 12 hours ago and still nothing. Started at 100 and let free fall to room temp. Am i missing something or just being impatient? Thought i'd definitely see some movement by now

 

[Blurryface]

I soured 8 gallons of wort with 5 caps in 6 days held at 100 degrees.

 

[mitchard]

6 days even seems like way too long for Plantarum.

macaronijones - I usually don't see a huge drop in ph through the first 24 hours. Most seems to happen by the 48 hour mark, with some additional points getting kicked off by 72. This is with Goodbelly at room temp of 70 something.

10 billion cells per serving (one capsule) for Swansons.

20 billion cells per (8 fl oz) serving of Goodbelly, and I will add a full carton (four servings, 80 billion cell count) to five gallons.

 

[Alpotun]

I started my first experiment with the caps last Sunday night. 1 gallon with DME at 1.035, used Lactic acid to bring pH down to 4.5. Sprinkled one cap, after 24 hours nothing at 70F. Sprinkled another cap in, another 24 hours and the pH was down to only 4.2. I then moved it out to the garage where it's in the high 70's at night and in the 90's during the day. Last night it had dropped to 3.2. So I boiled and pitched the yeast. Sample tasted great to me.

 

[Morrey]

I suppose the plantarum strain has a "bottom" meaning it won't sour anymore once that ph level is reached. Anybody got an idea what that ph level may be with plantarum?

 

[drgonzo2k2]

If you guys aren't getting a significant pH drop by the 24 hour mark there is something wrong. I always see levels around 4 at the 12 hour mark, and I've never had to wait more than 48 hours to start chilling down to my sacc pitching temps. Again, I use 1 capsule per gallon, chuck them in at 100F and just let it free fall while it sours. It will continue souring after chilling and pitching sacc as well, usually landing in the 3.2-3.3 range.

Are you using hops in your wort? What's the date on the capsules you have?

 

[macaronijones]

For one reason or another i got no movement at all for the first 24 hours, but then it started dropping. By 48 hours i hit 3.5 which was my goal. Like most things in homebrewing, patience was the answer.

 

[Morrey]

Has anyone let the wort kettle sour until it simply won't sour anymore? If so, what is the max ph drop I may expect? Will plantarum allow the wort to go below 3.2? I boiled my last beer at 3.2 and I'd like to try one a bit lower.

 

[macaronijones]

How did 3.2 taste? My wort at 3.5 was noticeably sour but not overwhelming by any means, but obviously that's with the sweetness of the unfermented wort in the way. Since pH is a logarithmic scale i expect 3.2 packs quite a bit more punch

 

[Alpotun]

My capsules show to have a mfg date of 1/16, and no hops were used.

 

[10sense]

I did a sour experiment about a year ago comparing Lacto propagated from 2-row to L. Plantarum. I added 1 L. Plantarum capsule to a gallon starter kept it at 115°F for three days. After boiling and cooling, I blended the L. Plantarum wort with an oatmeal stout (50/50 blend) and bottled.

Long story short, the L. Plantarum was our least favorite (when compared to the 2-row sour) at bottling but was the best tasting a few months later.

 

[munk24]

You can use Goodbelly probiotic drink and/or shots, found in many grocery stores, Its cheap, full of L Plantarum, and is used by many to quick sour a beer. Check the wiki at www.milkthefunk.com for directions and recommended temps.

 

[munk24]

115 degrees is too hot for L. Plantaurm, needs to be in 90's. and then you can let the temp fall, should be around 3.4 ph in a couple days. Check out the wiki at www.milkthefunk.com for more info.

 

[munk24]

Also when using l. Plantarum, 0 hops, you can hop after it sours. L Plantarum is very sensitive to hops, even 2 or more IBU's is too much. www.milkthefunk.com wiki for more info.

 

[coypoo]

Bumping this thread, what are other opinions on L. plantarium's hop tolerability? I just made 10 gal of golden sour with 2 IBUs worth of tettnanger and pitched 1 cap/gallon last night at somewhere over 100F (I was in a rush and forgot to check the final temp when I pitched the lacto). Also, no pH meter (yet), so I wont be able to check a pH today to see if it's working. Not doing a kettle sour, just giving the lacto a 24hr head start prior to pitching my sacc, so if it's not sour in a couple of months I can pitch some pedio and go from there

 

[Morrey]

Bumping this thread, what are other opinions on L. plantarium's hop tolerability? I just made 10 gal of golden sour with 2 IBUs worth of tettnanger and pitched 1 cap/gallon last night at somewhere over 100F (I was in a rush and forgot to check the final temp when I pitched the lacto). Also, no pH meter (yet), so I wont be able to check a pH today to see if it's working. Not doing a kettle sour, just giving the lacto a 24hr head start prior to pitching my sacc, so if it's not sour in a couple of months I can pitch some pedio and go from there

I have read that L Plantarum is so hop sensitive you really can't use much at all. I doubt that 2 IBU is going to shut you down, but for the very reason you are concerned, I stick to kettle sours then boil and add hops afterwards.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I've gotten no action using under 5 IBU. Granted that's per Beersmith not legit testing or anything. The nice thing about this though is that it makes using the same gear for regular beers a nonissue because the vast majority of what people brew is too hoppy for the lacto to operate. Obviously you should still be sanitary but it's a nice plus.

 

[coypoo]

I've gotten no action using under 5 IBU.

Are you saying under 5 IBUs you have no issues? Or even with IBUs under 5 (and not 0) you've seen inhibition of lacto?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Are you saying under 5 IBUs you have no issues? Or even with IBUs under 5 (and not 0) you've seen inhibition of lacto?

Under 5 IBU was enough to inhibit the lacto. Granted these weren't aged hops but they were low alpha. Without lab work on the beers/system there's really no way to tell if I had the 3-4 IBU Beersmith gave or 7-8 or whatever IBU so that's an important factor. I found it easier to just leave em out.

 

[RevKev]

Under 5 IBU was enough to inhibit the lacto. Granted these weren't aged hops but they were low alpha. Without lab work on the beers/system there's really no way to tell if I had the 3-4 IBU Beersmith gave or 7-8 or whatever IBU so that's an important factor. I found it easier to just leave em out.

You could just do whirlpool additions @180°F, that would be much easier and allow hopping. Do you dry hop?