First GF brew

[gavo]

So I'm working on planning my first GF brew. This one will be for my girlfriend who has celiac but has been kind enough to let me start my home brewing at her place. I'm planning on using Lcasanova's revised Double Chocolate Oatmill Stout recipe as I think we will both be able to enjoy this one. I'm still very new to home brewing (only one other non GF brew under my belt) so I of course have a few questions. The recipe is below:

Grains:
2 lb Bob's Red Mill Gluten Free Rolled Oats, roasted (1 SRM)
3 lbs Brown Rice Syrup (60 min)
3 lbs Sorghum Syrup (60 min)
1 lb Dark Candi Sugar (60 min)
1 lb Molasses (60 min)
.4 oz Chinook, pellet 11.4% (60 min)
.25 oz Chinook, pellet 11.4% (30 min)
.25 oz Fuggles, pellet 4.8% (15 min)
1 tsp Irish Moss (10 min)
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient (10 min)
6 oz Fat Free Cocoa Powder (10 min)
8 oz Maltodextrin (5 min)
S-04 SafAle Yeast

1 lb Dark Candi Sugar (after fermentation has started)
3 Vanilla Beans, split, chopped (Secondary, 7 days)

I have already toasted the oats and I assume that I will steep those? I'm also curious about adding the Dark Candi Sugar after the fermentation has started. I assume I can just sterilize the package add the Candi Sugar? Has anyone else tried this recipe and had any luck?

 

[Vance71975]

So I'm working on planning my first GF brew. This one will be for my girlfriend who has celiac but has been kind enough to let me start my home brewing at her place. I'm planning on using Lcasanova's revised Double Chocolate Oatmill Stout recipe as I think we will both be able to enjoy this one. I'm still very new to home brewing (only one other non GF brew under my belt) so I of course have a few questions. The recipe is below:

Grains:
2 lb Bob's Red Mill Gluten Free Rolled Oats, roasted (1 SRM)
3 lbs Brown Rice Syrup (60 min)
3 lbs Sorghum Syrup (60 min)
1 lb Dark Candi Sugar (60 min)
1 lb Molasses (60 min)
.4 oz Chinook, pellet 11.4% (60 min)
.25 oz Chinook, pellet 11.4% (30 min)
.25 oz Fuggles, pellet 4.8% (15 min)
1 tsp Irish Moss (10 min)
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient (10 min)
6 oz Fat Free Cocoa Powder (10 min)
8 oz Maltodextrin (5 min)
S-04 SafAle Yeast

1 lb Dark Candi Sugar (after fermentation has started)
3 Vanilla Beans, split, chopped (Secondary, 7 days)

I have already toasted the oats and I assume that I will steep those? I'm also curious about adding the Dark Candi Sugar after the fermentation has started. I assume I can just sterilize the package add the Candi Sugar? Has anyone else tried this recipe and had any luck?

Ok i don't know a lot about GF brewing, but i do know quite a bit about brewing in general.

I see one serious potential problem, you have A LOT of simple sugars in the brew, which will thin it out, and can lead to a "cidery" Off flavor. Also the one brew i did do with Sorghum i was asked by the brew shop if i wanted a GF Yeast to go with it, I don't know if they were just trying to "up sell" Or if their really is Gluten in Normal Brewing yeast, BUT i would look into it before brewing, as you don't want to cause problems for your girlfriend when she drinks it. Here are the changes i would make, just to make sure you don't end up thin and without body. Yes you will want to steep the Oats in about 1.5 gallons of water that is around 150 degrees for about 60 mins.

2 lb Bob's Red Mill Gluten Free Rolled Oats, roasted (1 SRM)
1 lbs Brown Rice Syrup (60 min)
6 lbs Sorghum Syrup (60 min)
2 lb Molasses (60 min) Make sure it is QUALITY and Not Blackstrap, ALSO Unsulphered.
.4 oz Chinook, pellet 11.4% (60 min)
.25 oz Chinook, pellet 11.4% (30 min)
.25 oz Fuggles, pellet 4.8% (15 min)
1 tsp Irish Moss (10 min)
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient (10 min)
6 oz Fat Free Cocoa Powder (10 min)
8 oz Maltodextrin (5 min)
S-04 SafAle Yeast

 

[aggieotis]

I see one serious potential problem, you have A LOT of simple sugars in the brew, which will thin it out, and can lead to a "cidery" Off flavor. Also the one brew i did do with Sorghum i was asked by the brew shop if i wanted a GF Yeast to go with it, I don't know if they were just trying to "up sell" Or if their really is Gluten in Normal Brewing yeast, BUT i would look into it before brewing, as you don't want to cause problems for your girlfriend when she drinks it.

1. Brown Rice Syrup has worked pretty well for most of us without giving cidery flavors.
2. Too much molasses can really wreak havoc on your beer, so I don't know if I'd up this.
3. Too much sorghum can lead to other off-flavors that most of us on these forums like to avoid (but can pair well with a West Coast Pale Ale, however would clash with this variety).
   
   In fact I've found that a 50/50 blend of sorghum/rice extract is the closest that you can easily get in GF brewing to matching the nutrient profile of barley extract.

Finally, the yeast, SafAle is Safe for GF. Wyeast is definitely not. And White Labs is debatable (I use it, but some don't). There's plenty of discussions around here, but if you're unsure, then just use a pack of SafAle and call it a day.

All in all, I like your recipe the way it was, and I think you'll end up with a pretty awesome beer.

Edit: Be careful you don't use a variety of yeast nutrient that has gluten in it. I'd say stick to di-ammonium phosphate

 

[gavo]

Thanks for the reply. I'm planning on brewing this in a little over a week. I will head to the LHBS this weekend and they should be able to help with the yeast. I'm pretty sure they carry specific yeast I'm looking for and they are knowledgeable to an extent on GF brewing. Thanks for the heads up though. I'll make sure I check the yeast nutrient before I purchase anything.

 

[DKershner]

Is that your new stout recipe Casanova? I like it.

Brew this recipe as is, sounds like a great beer. Aggieotis gave your great info as well, I agree with everything he said.

As for the steep, you can definitely do that as stated by Vince, but I think I would just boil/simmer them. Basically just cook them and use a 2:1 ratio of water to oats. Vince's advice is great for barley in imitating the color and taste of a mash, but you are really just trying to extract as much flavor as possible here. Plus, then you could just eat em!

 

[DKershner]

Also, Gavo, this is your first GF brew and your second overall brew. Realize that you chose a very difficult brew and there are much easier options out there to start out on. MUCH easier. I would recommend you do an easier one before stepping up into the world of multiple adjuncts, fermenter feeding, and spices/flavorings.

 

[gavo]

Thanks for the reply DKershner. I agree this one is probably stepping it up a notch for my second brew, but I think I'm ready to dive in. I figure it will have one of two outcomes. Either it comes out pretty well and I learn a few ways to make it better, or it doesn't come out at all and I learn what I did wrong.

I already have the oats toasted and have them wafting now. I will do as you say and boil/simmer them. I do have someone helping me who has been brewing for close to a year. Only non-GF and extract kits, but he does have a bit more experience. Can you see anything with the recipe that might trip us up?

 

[DKershner]

Can you see anything with the recipe that might trip us up?

Sure I can! But, you never really know until you're going.

 

[gavo]

Sure I can! But, you never really know until you're going.

Point well taken. I suppose I'll give it a shot and let you guys know how it goes. I know it will be a learning experience for sure. Thanks for everyone's help. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

 

[Lcasanova]

Is that your new stout recipe Casanova? I like it.

Brew this recipe as is, sounds like a great beer. Aggieotis gave your great info as well, I agree with everything he said.

As for the steep, you can definitely do that as stated by Vince, but I think I would just boil/simmer them. Basically just cook them and use a 2:1 ratio of water to oats. Vince's advice is great for barley in imitating the color and taste of a mash, but you are really just trying to extract as much flavor as possible here. Plus, then you could just eat em!

Yes, that's the updated recipe and I think it's promising regardless of the simple sugars left over. And I would still use Blackstrap molasses- you want the flavor to carry over but keep it to 1 lb.

As an aside, I brewed a test batch of this recipe using chocolate extract rather than cocoa powder and it is fantastic. When I get home I'll find the recipe and post it for you guys.

Gavo- good luck with the brewing, hope you like the beer when it turns out, it is certainly chocolatey

 

[gavo]

Gavo- good luck with the brewing, hope you like the beer when it turns out, it is certainly chocolatey

Thanks! I'm interested to see the recipe when you post it later. Chocolate extract sounds like it might be a better option for me.

 

[Lcasanova]

Here's the link:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/experimental-batches-192814/index8.html#post2547577

 

[gavo]

Here's the link:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/experimental-batches-192814/index8.html#post2547577

Thanks for posting Casanova. That brings up a few more questions from me. Is there a reason that you are going with only Brown Rice Syrup in this recipe and not a mix of BRS and Sorghum? Also I noticed that you dropped the dark candi sugar during fermentation.

I'm also curious the best place to get Blackstrap molasses. I've seen it at health food stores and I just wanted to make sure there was no problem with that. I know my LHBS does not carry it. Thanks for your help!

 

[DKershner]

Thanks for posting Casanova. That brings up a few more questions from me. Is there a reason that you are going with only Brown Rice Syrup in this recipe and not a mix of BRS and Sorghum? Also I noticed that you dropped the dark candi sugar during fermentation.

I'm also curious the best place to get Blackstrap molasses. I've seen it at health food stores and I just wanted to make sure there was no problem with that. I know my LHBS does not carry it. Thanks for your help!

Most of the stuff we use is not available at LHBS's. Health food stores are common targets.

Also, going out on a limb here, but he probably dropped the Sorghum because it doesn't taste good.

The candi sugar I leave to him, but using 2lbs is a lot, and would be pretty expensive unless you made it yourself. I would probably still go for it though.

 

[gavo]

Most of the stuff we use is not available at LHBS's. Health food stores are common targets.

Also, going out on a limb here, but he probably dropped the Sorghum because it doesn't taste good.

The candi sugar I leave to him, but using 2lbs is a lot, and would be pretty expensive unless you made it yourself. I would probably still go for it though.

Thanks for the input. It's much appreciated. I assumed that was the case with the Sorghum, just thought I'd check though. The candi sugar is pretty pricey, and I may end up going the same route he did.

Can you provide any pointers when I'm looking at the Maltodextrin and the Yeast Nutrient? I know my LHBS carries both, but I know they may not all be GF.

 

[DKershner]

Thanks for the input. It's much appreciated. I assumed that was the case with the Sorghum, just thought I'd check though. The candi sugar is pretty pricey, and I may end up going the same route he did.

Can you provide any pointers when I'm looking at the Maltodextrin and the Yeast Nutrient? I know my LHBS carries both, but I know they may not all be GF.

Maltodextrin is almost always GF, the only examples are from outside of the US that aren't. You can check if it is US-made, if so, you are good.

I was under the impression that all yeast nutrient was GF as well, but Otis found something else to be true. Anyway, the most common use of this stuff is in wine, which usually uses DAP, which is gluten free. So, you could just ask for DAP.

 

[aggieotis]

I was under the impression that all yeast nutrient was GF as well, but Otis found something else to be true. Anyway, the most common use of this stuff is in wine, which usually uses DAP, which is gluten free. So, you could just ask for DAP.

A lot of yeast nutrient uses the carcasses of yeast molecules past (aka yeast hulls or inactivated yeast)*. As you never know exactly what those yeasts grew on (most likely barley), it's a lot easier to use some DAP. Also a few yeast nutrients don't say what's in them because it's a secret recipe*.

You could email each manufacturer of the particular yeast nutrient that you're looking for, then really follow up on where/how they get their yeast hulls, or you could just use diammonium phosphate (DAP). Last thing you want to do is stress about making GF beer and then just inadvertently dump a bunch of glutenated yeast hulls into your beer and contaminate your whole batch with gluten.

*Go-Ferm, Fermaid and Fermax all use inactivated yeast or yeast hulls.
**Brewvint Yeast Fuel and Wyeast Yeast Nutrient don't say what all is in them.

 

[gavo]

A lot of yeast nutrient uses the carcasses of yeast molecules past (aka yeast hulls or inactivated yeast)*. As you never know exactly what those yeasts grew on (most likely barley), it's a lot easier to use some DAP. Also a few yeast nutrients don't say what's in them because it's a secret recipe*.

You could email each manufacturer of the particular yeast nutrient that you're looking for, then really follow up on where/how they get their yeast hulls, or you could just use diammonium phosphate (DAP). Last thing you want to do is stress about making GF beer and then just inadvertently dump a bunch of glutenated yeast hulls into your beer and contaminate your whole batch with gluten.

*Go-Ferm, Fermaid and Fermax all use inactivated yeast or yeast hulls.
**Brewvint Yeast Fuel and Wyeast Yeast Nutrient don't say what all is in them.

Thanks for the very thorough explanation. Makes sense and I'd prefer not to risk it. I'll probably going with the DAP then.

I'm also considering adding the buckwheat that Casanova adds in this recipe. I know I had planned on just basically cooking the oats before, but if I add the buckwheat along with it will I do more of a steep?

 

[gavo]

A lot of yeast nutrient uses the carcasses of yeast molecules past (aka yeast hulls or inactivated yeast)*. As you never know exactly what those yeasts grew on (most likely barley), it's a lot easier to use some DAP. Also a few yeast nutrients don't say what's in them because it's a secret recipe*.

You could email each manufacturer of the particular yeast nutrient that you're looking for, then really follow up on where/how they get their yeast hulls, or you could just use diammonium phosphate (DAP). Last thing you want to do is stress about making GF beer and then just inadvertently dump a bunch of glutenated yeast hulls into your beer and contaminate your whole batch with gluten.

*Go-Ferm, Fermaid and Fermax all use inactivated yeast or yeast hulls.
**Brewvint Yeast Fuel and Wyeast Yeast Nutrient don't say what all is in them.

Thanks for the very thorough explanation. Makes sense and I'd prefer not to risk it. I'll probably going with the DAP then.

I'm also considering adding the buckwheat that Casanova adds in this recipe. I know I had planned on just basically cooking the oats before, but if I add the buckwheat along with it will I do more of a steep?

 

[Lcasanova]

Sorry for the delay!

I dropped the Sorghum syrup because the recipe I gave was a 1 gallon batch and I didn't feel like opening a container of sorghum syrup just for that, the BRS is in 1 lb 5 oz jars and that seems to work perfectly...that and I'm trying to get away from using so much sorghum syrup.

The dark candi being added during fermentation was something I was considering but haven't done yet. When I do have time though, I plan on doing just that.

I get my blackstrap molasses at Whole Foods, just make sure it is unsulphured.

And- there's nothing wrong with doing a steep with the buckwheat and oats, I did just that in my experimental batch.

 

[gavo]

Sorry for the delay!

I dropped the Sorghum syrup because the recipe I gave was a 1 gallon batch and I didn't feel like opening a container of sorghum syrup just for that, the BRS is in 1 lb 5 oz jars and that seems to work perfectly...that and I'm trying to get away from using so much sorghum syrup.

The dark candi being added during fermentation was something I was considering but haven't done yet. When I do have time though, I plan on doing just that.

I get my blackstrap molasses at Whole Foods, just make sure it is unsulphured.

And- there's nothing wrong with doing a steep with the buckwheat and oats, I did just that in my experimental batch.

That makes sense. I'm going to consider doing the candi sugar this time. It will probably come down to budget. I noticed some unsulphured molasses at outpost tonight when I was there so I'll probably go pick that up.

Where do you pick up your buckwheat? I know Bob's Old Mill does some gluten free buckwheat groat, but I had no idea if that would work. To be honest I'm not exactly sure what to look for with buckwheat.

 

[gavo]

Ok so tomorrow is brew day for this beast. I'm pretty sure I'm completely set, but I do have one question. Does anyone out there have experience using DAP. I'm just not sure the exact amount to use for my 5-gallon batch. Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[DKershner]

Ok so tomorrow is brew day for this beast. I'm pretty sure I'm completely set, but I do have one question. Does anyone out there have experience using DAP. I'm just not sure the exact amount to use for my 5-gallon batch. Any help would be much appreciated.

I would recommend 1tsp for your batch. This is about 1/5 the recommended dose for batches free of any nutrients like wine. The sorghum will give you most of what you need.

 

[gavo]

I would recommend 1tsp for your batch. This is about 1/5 the recommended dose for batches free of any nutrients like wine. The sorghum will give you most of what you need.

Great! Thanks DKershner. I thought I had saw that somewhere, but I wanted to make sure.

I'll try to let everyone know how it goes and hopefully I come up with a drinkable final product.

 

[gavo]

Well brew day went well yesterday. No issues with the recipe and everything is bubbling away in the primary. Ended up with an OG of 1.066. Tasted it before adding the yeast. It was very sweet as expected. The color looks very dark brown. I've posted the recipe I used below which is pretty identical to Casanova's.

2.00 lb Bob's red mill oats - Toasted
3.00 lb Brown Rice Syrup
3.00 lb White Sorghum Syrup
1.00 lb Candi Sugar, Dark
1.00 lb Molasses
0.75 oz Chinook [11.20 %] (60 min) Hops 15.1 IBU
0.25 oz Chinook [11.20 %] (30 min) Hops 3.9 IBU
0.25 oz Fuggles [4.20 %] (15 min) Hops 1.9 IBU
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min)
1.00 tsp Diammonium phosphate (Boil 10.0 min)
8.00 oz Malto-Dextrine (Boil 5.0 min)
1 Pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale

Adding later:
1.00 oz Chocolate extract (Secondary 7.0 days)
3.00 items Vanilla bean (Secondary 7.0 days)

Hoping this turns out well. I'm excited for my girlfriend to try it.

Thanks to everyone here who answered all my questions. It was much appreciated.

 

[BigBlueDog]

I've been following this thread and am looking forward to hearing how this beer turns out.

How did you end up handling the Oats? Steep or cook?

 

[gavo]

I've been following this thread and am looking forward to hearing how this beer turns out.

How did you end up handling the Oats? Steep or cook?

I ended up cooking them in a grain bag and removed them before dumping in anything else. It added a bit of color as well as some flavor from what I could tell.

 

[BigBlueDog]

I ended up cooking them in a grain bag and removed them before dumping in anything else. It added a bit of color as well as some flavor from what I could tell.

Good to know. I was wondering how the oats would hold up in the grain bag under a higher "cooking" temperature vs. steeping at say, 150 F.

 

[gavo]

Here's a picture of it so far. 48-hours in and the fermentation is slow as expected, but it is going. Take a look.

 

[gavo]

Just an update. It's been a week and half in the primary and it has gone from 1.066 OG to 1.020 SG so far with fermentation still going. Hoping to get it down around 1.016. Planning to leave it in the primary for at least 3 weeks before I rack to secondary. Planning to add chocolate extract and vanilla beans for the week I let it sit in secondary, then bottle. Tasted pretty good when I tried it, and the girlfriend agreed. Excited to see how this turns out once I add the chocolate.

 

[Lcasanova]

What chocolate extract are you using?

 

[gavo]

What chocolate extract are you using?

I don't remember the exact brand. It's one I picked up at whole foods and says it is GF on the side. Not exactly sure how much I'm going to use yet. I think it's a two ounce bottle. I may start with an ounce and see how that is. I'm not sure how strong of a chocolate taste that will impart. Any recommendations? I think I'd rather side with putting less in there and if I have to I can add more at bottling.

 

[dorklord]

I don't remember the exact brand. It's one I picked up at whole foods and says it is GF on the side. Not exactly sure how much I'm going to use yet. I think it's a two ounce bottle. I may start with an ounce and see how that is. I'm not sure how strong of a chocolate taste that will impart. Any recommendations? I think I'd rather side with putting less in there and if I have to I can add more at bottling.

I'd err on the side of caution as well. It is a lot easier to add more later than to take some out if you overdo it.

 

[KevinM]

Can you pull some samples and use an eyedropper in each of the samples to taste test? Got a way to force carb to test?

 

[gavo]

Can you pull some samples and use an eyedropper in each of the samples to taste test? Got a way to force carb to test?

I can take a sample, but I'm not sure if I will be able to tell with smaller samples and then convert that to something that will work for the whole five gallons. I might give that a try though. I don't have any way to force carb unfortunately. Still having to bottle.

 

[Lcasanova]

I know 1 dram (how ever much that is) usually works well in 5 gallons of beer...

In my test batches I just poured a little bit in, didn't help that I was nicely buzzed by the time I added those either

 

[dorklord]

I know 1 dram (how ever much that is) usually works well in 5 gallons of beer...

In my test batches I just poured a little bit in, didn't help that I was nicely buzzed by the time I added those either

So like 3/4 of a teaspoon?

 

[gavo]

So like 3/4 of a teaspoon?

That's the conversion I see as well. I'll probably shoot for somewhere between 3/4 of a teaspoon to a full teaspoon.

 

[Lcasanova]

That's what I'd use for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[gavo]

That's what I'd use for a 5 gallon batch.

That sounds like a plan to me. Appreciate your help once again. Pretty excited about this one. Still a pretty odd color, but has been tasting good.