BIAB and consistency / quality issues

[marjen]

Hello. I have some questions. So I have been brewing for about a year now. Been doing BIAB just about the whole time. I have a 20 gallon kettle and use a bag and hoist. I am in the early stages of planning to build an electric brewing setup and i am trying to decide on what path to take, continue with BIAB or move to a 3V herms setup.

I have brewed about 20 times so far. My batches have ranged from spectacular to horrible dump material, all while using very similar recipes and processes. I always use the same yeast, WY1318 which is a very quick aggressive yeast. I make NE IPAs pretty much all the time. The issue I have is that some batches just don't want to drop out the hop/yeast matter. They remain very murky, puke color for a long time. A have let batches sit for 3-4 weeks and still they were not drinkable.

On the flip side batches that turn out well are typically tasting great and ready to keg in 7-10 days. Same recipes, same process, temps, yeast, hop schedule etc.

I was reading this article yesterday and a certain section caught my eye:
http://brulosophy.com/2018/03/05/ma...vs-no-sparge-exbeeriment-results/#more-114387

“I won’t attempt to explain away or pretend to understand why some people make perfectly clear beer when squeezing the BIAB bag like it owes them money, but I’ll confess that it is still a mystery to me why some beers drop bright nearly instantly while others require weeks. ”

It sounds like the author is saying he sometimes sees BIAB batches that dont drop out hops/yeast after weeks when other times they do right away. This sounds like the exact same thing i have experienced. Has anyone else had a similar issue or had batches like this? If this a potential pitfall of BIAB, I am not sure I want to commit the money to an electric BIAB setup. Maybe its only if you squeeze the bag? Or something else?

My current process is to do full volume no sparge/circulation BIAB. I put in the bag, drop in the malts, stir it around and cover it up. half way through I open the lid, stir it again and then cover back up. When its done I squeeze the hell out of the back to try and get every thing I can out of it.

If I stick with BIAB I am thinking of circulating the water via pump and dropping it back in the top of the kettle to a recirc manifold ( like this one https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/re-circulation-manifold-for-infussion-mash-tuns) and getting a brew basket vs using a bag. The hope would be to get good efficiency without squeezing it which is possibly causing issues?

Anyway trying to get some feedback on if others have had consistency issues when doing BIAB.

 

[Shawn3997]

I've done about 70 BIAB batches so far and all have dropped clear. I squeeze the bag until it is dry and I grind at about 0.025" which is basically flour-level. I pour the hot break, hops, and all into the fermenter and pitch. One thing I do after fermentation is finished is set the carboy aside for about 4 weeks at room temperature to age. That might be the difference. I think the yeast glob onto everything eventually and drag it all down to the bottom which gives me clear beer. You might be rushing things?

 

[marjen]

NE IPAs are not supposed to sit around that long. Hops and aroma will be long gone. Also I reach FG within 4-5 days regardless of the issue. And it is again the issue of why do some batches have the issue and not others? I would think it should be fairly consistent with same process and ingredients in place.

 

[jtratcliff]

I've done about 70 BIAB batches so far and all have dropped clear. I squeeze the bag until it is dry and I grind at about 0.025" which is basically flour-level. I pour the hot break, hops, and all into the fermenter and pitch. One thing I do after fermentation is finished is set the carboy aside for about 4 weeks at room temperature to age. That might be the difference. I think the yeast glob onto everything eventually and drag it all down to the bottom which gives me clear beer. You might be rushing things?

My BIBA process is similar... fine grind, major squeezing... but I also no-chill... No issues w/clarity... I usually go about 3 weeks total in the fermentor. 1 week primary, a few days to 1 week dry hop, then one week to clear.

NE IPAs are not supposed to sit around that long. Hops and aroma will be long gone. Also I reach FG within 4-5 days regardless of the issue. And it is again the issue of why do some batches have the issue and not others? I would think it should be fairly consistent with same process and ingredients in place.

I don't really do IPAs (NE or otherwise) but I do make a decent hoppy APA... Maybe change your hopping schedule to allow more time in primary? Are you kettle fining at all? or cold crashing? or using gelatin?

Maybe push your flavor/aroma additions closer to flame out, use kettle finings (whirlfloc or irish moss), give it a week in primary, then dry hop for a few days, then cold crash with gelatin... Although I though the murkiness was part of the NEIPA style?

 

[Chvymn99]

I do full boil BIAB and squeeze the bag... I let mine rest in the primary for 4 weeks... I've never had what I felt as loss hoppiness doing this...

Adding hops in at 2 weeks or 3 weeks depending on the recipe, but I put them in a hop sack. I also use Irish moss at 15 minutes before end of boil...

Then when I'm ready to bottle or keg, I'll move my bucket to the location 24 hours before to allow any disturbance resettle to the bottom...

 

[casualbrewer]

You are literally brewing a style that is intended to be murky. I would take a closer look at your process and additions to make sure you aren't missing anything. I strictly BIAB and can make a crystal clear beer in very little time if I try to. Then again I make mainly lagers with the occasional pale ale.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I started filtering for just this reason. I've had beers take forever to drop out. Filtering gets the yeast out and ready to drink as soon as its carbed the next day.
I just use a 1 micron filter in a home water filter canister and a little pump. Probably cost me around $40...money well spent

 

[Setsumi]

Differences between batches, mabey not full conversion? Starhces?

 

[Shawn3997]

You might try doing the cold-crash + gelatin thingy a-la Brulosophy:

http://brulosophy.com/tag/gelatin/

 

[marjen]

I realize the beer is supposed to be hazy, lol, thats not at all the problem. The problem is 1/2 the time they are murky, greenish puke color. Not a nice orange/yellow juice looking beer. Tasting them at that point leaves a horrible taste in your mouth for a long time. I am trying to understand why this is not a consistent issue. Again sometimes batches move along as expected, sometimes they do not. My first batch this year did turn out well after cold crashing for 5 days. So it was about 2 weeks from grain to glass. I am fine with that. Just trying to understand the reason for differences and see if other BIAB brewers experience the same thing. It sounds like a lot of you are letting your beers sit for weeks to get them drinkable. That does not seem like it should be the case if the beer is done fermenting after only 4-5 days.

Also reading the article listed above and seeing someone with much more experience than me pose a question on what sounds like the same issue and having no explanation led to me looking to see if others have similar experience.

Again hazy beers = Great!
Murky beers = terrible.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Green would be hops which is odd. Hops always drop out quick. I've never made a beer let alone drink one that was greenish.
Yeast is murky brown. I've gotten that many times. Even after cold crashing. But not nearly as bad as not cold crashing

 

[Morrey]

Like JonnyRotten says, a green cast to the beer indicates hop/vegetal matter in the beer that is not settling out for some reason.

I make lots of NE IPA's in the same Uni tank just like you. In a 5G batch, I'll have close to a pound of hops...or double that for a 10G batch which is my norm. I am pumping wort from the kettle to the Uni tank (again like yours) so our equipment is somewhat similar.

I find it necessary to contain the hops (biggie in this beer) so as little hop trub as possible makes it to the tank. If you do a whirlpool, that process can help form a trub cone in the kettle's center to leave behind. Then after 24 hours in the tank, do a small dump of about a pint to clear some of the break that is settling out.

First, I use CTZ bittering extract from Yakima Valley. This gives me lots of IBU's with no vegetal matter to deal with. From there, I use a hop spider with a Wilser hop bag to contain the hops during late additions and Whirlpooling. I find it critical to contain these hop pellets on the hot side, then I use mesh hop tubes in the tank for dry hop additions. Again...containing the hops. For the skeptics who promote free floating hops for maximum utilization...increase the hop quantity slightly.

While some hop trub will occur no matter what, a quick trub dump on day 1 or 2 will help clear the beer of the initial break materials. Two more dumps during time in the tank will pretty much take all the trub and yeast out of the tank...you have the ideal tank to accomplish this. What I am not understanding is why your results are so mixed. Either your process is inconsistent or your ingredients are inconsistent, but my money is on process. Try containing the hops and making several small dumps during time in the Uni tank.

Example of my NE IPA as I begin the carb process. Color is between orange and grapefruit juice...by design.

 

[srusinko]

Are you harvesting and re-using your yeast? The only thing I can think of is that over time maybe you're only selecting the low-flocculating cells. If you re-pitch yeast can you tell if there's a correlation between yeast generation and murkiness level?

 

[marjen]

"Are you harvesting and re-using your yeast? The only thing I can think of is that over time maybe you're only selecting the low-flocculating cells. If you re-pitch yeast can you tell if there's a correlation between yeast generation and murkiness level?"

No I always use new yeast so far.

"Like JonnyRotten says, a green cast to the beer indicates hop/vegetal matter in the beer that is not settling out for some reason.'

Or I am wondering if it is yeast as well and the color is due to the fact that I dry hop during the tail end of fermentation usually around day 3-4.

I am finding that cold crashing is helping. Last batch, which was only my second in the unitank and 1st with glycol chiller, did clear (still hazy as I wanted) by day 14. I do not however got a lot of hop flavor and aroma that I was expected. Did a 6 oz dry hop on a 5 gallon batch.

The current batch is about 10 days in. I just checked it and it is not so much green as murky yellow brownish. Taste is not horrible. No real aroma and not a fruity taste. Will check on it in a few more days. So crashing does seem to have a positive effect. Last batch did come out pretty good at the end of the day. It has a bit of a peppery taste which I have not had before, might be something with the hops, but overall was a pretty good beer. Will see how this one turns out.

I have thought about a hop spider. Issue is my kettle is rather tall, its a 20 gallon and I have been doing a lot of 5 gallon batches in it. So would need a really tall spider, 20"+ to really get down in the kettle. Maybe will try a hop bag again at least in the kettle.

This batch I also tried cry hops for my dry hop. I used 4oz. That's why suprised when i just tried it there was no real hop smell or aroma. I am dry hopping under pressure, not sure if that is suppressing the smell, I thought that would make it better.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I brew mostly NEIPAs and switched to mashing in a bag (in a cooler) last fall. I squeeze the heck out of them, I ususally use 12-14 oz of hops and drop them all in free to the boil and in the fermenter (no hop bags).

Everyone is green murky nastiness out of the kettle, even with a nice whirlpool and a lot of hops in the cone. I ferment about 4 days, dry hopping at about 24 hours after pitch, cold crash for two, then keg on day 7. I also use 1318.

I get the same flavor timeline every time:

1. I carb at 30 psi for two days.
2. Take a sample when I drop down to 9 psi after those two days...it looks great, but is almost undrinkable for the hop burn.
3. By day 7 after kegging it's drinkable, but still needs more time.
4. By day 10 or 11 it's glorious and stays that way for about 3-4 weeks.
5. After that it's still really good but the hop flavor starts to fade...still looks great.

I don't know what to tell you. I just brewed a blonde ale for the national homebrew comp and I did not squeeze the bag at all for that as my research on how to get clear beer said squeezing the bag yields a lot more proteins in the wort. Proteins are an issue with chill haze, but should not affect how quickly hops drop.

Are you cold crashing? That greatly reduces the hops getting into the keg. You could also try the clear beer draft system that draws from the top of the keg. I've heard reports that the hop burn is gone by the time it's carbed, even with an accelerated carbonation schedule like mine.

 

[beernutz]

How are you adding hops to the boil? In a hop spider or hop sack or straight into the kettle? If the latter, do you whirlpool and then drain leaving the debris pile or just put all of the contents of the kettle into the fermenter?

 

[marjen]

How are you adding hops to the boil? In a hop spider or hop sack or straight into the kettle? If the latter, do you whirlpool and then drain leaving the debris pile or just put all of the contents of the kettle into the fermenter?

Hops go into the boil. Usually 1 oz total in the boil and 4-6 oz in the whirlpool. Sometimes when I use a pump for the whirlpool I do get a lot of stuff left in the kettle. I have tried a couple different strainers but they tend to get clogged. I am thinking of getting a hop spider to see if that helps.

 

[meridianomrebel]

From what I'm reading, I think hops are the culprit. Build yourself a cheap hop spider, and for your dry hops, bag them and toss them in after primary fermentation has completed.