Anything wrong with fermenting the must at 95F?

[RPh_Guy]

Your instructions don't mention a yeast nutrient. Is that an oversight? i.e. is yeast nutrient something that you do recommend?

Nutrient generally isn't necessary for beer, but it doesn't hurt. I typically add a little.

It leaves a sediment on the bottom. I'm guessing this is normal

Yep, sediment is normal.

Are we planning to let it sour to the maximum amount? Or, is the plan to kill the lacto before it goes all the way to that extreme? Based on the directions given, I'm guessing the former rather than the latter.

Maximum souring!

If this turns out too sour for you but otherwise good, next time you can add some dry hops 12-24 hours after the Lacto. Czech Saaz, Strisselspalt, or Amarillo would be really nice imo.

Hops prevent Lacto from souring.

I'll be doing one of the batches according to rph_guy's directions (above). However, in case I need to troubleshoot, I'll be holding off on adding the lacto to the other two. I intend for them to be backups in case I somehow botch the first batch.

I wanted to make things simple, but I would actually pitch the Lacto about 6-8 hours after the yeast.

I just checked on my lacto thermos. The temperature dropped from 100 to 88 overnight, which should be fine. The wort still smells and tastes sweet; there's no acid at all. Shirley it should be sour by now! Is it possible the grain I added had no bugs in it? I used pale ale malt, just because it's the freshest. My 2-row is over a year old and the pilsner is 2 or 3 years old.

I should probably boil it again, strain it, and add 2-row or pils (why not both?) because they weren't kilned as high.

Few thoughts:
1. Ideally you want to maintain high temperature. Maybe a water bath would help, especially if you have anything that could apply heat.
2. It is difficult to taste acid in unfermented wort because the sweetness covers it. Testing pH is more reliable (with a meter).
3. Wild cultures are unpredictable, but I think it's pretty unlikely you had sterile grain. Maybe it just needs more time. I would not boil it again, just add more grain if you don't have any activity.

Consider getting a source of L. plantarum. It really is the best for a number of reasons.

Cheers

 

[NeverDie]

1. Ideally you want to maintain high temperature. Maybe a water bath would help, especially if you have anything that could apply heat.

In case it helps anyone else: I created a water bath by controlling the family crock pot with an inkbird. This only works because I'm doing small batches: I can fit two 1/2-gallon mason jars into it, with water heated by the crock pot surrounding them. It's not a perfect solution, but it seems to work "good enough."

All the inoculations are done now, so not much to do until its time to start checking the SG....

 

[z-bob]

Nutrient generally isn't necessary for beer, but it doesn't hurt. I typically add a little.


Few thoughts:
1. Ideally you want to maintain high temperature. Maybe a water bath would help, especially if you have anything that could apply heat.
2. It is difficult to taste acid in unfermented wort because the sweetness covers it. Testing pH is more reliable (with a meter).
3. Wild cultures are unpredictable, but I think it's pretty unlikely you had sterile grain. Maybe it just needs more time. I would not boil it again, just add more grain if you don't have any activity.

Consider getting a source of L. plantarum. It really is the best for a number of reasons.

Cheers

I haven't done anything with it today; just left it alone. It's been in the Thermos for just over 24 hours now, and I just checked on it. It's still 85 degrees. It was between 90 and 100 for over 12 hours last night. Doesn't smell bad, and I checked the pH and it's 4.2 (that's not great, but good, right?) I need to figure out a way to warm it back up to 95 or 100 and let it keep going. Maybe skim the grain out to make room and add a little boiling water...

 

[z-bob]

And this morning the pH is 4.00 and I can sorta taste the acid.

 

[NeverDie]

And this morning the pH is 4.00 and I can sorta taste the acid.

Apparently Omega Lactobacillus plantarum will reduce Ph from 5.6 to 3.22 in a mere 18 hours at 97F. (source: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus#Effects_on_Mixed_Fermentation) It says this can reduce yeast activity, which is what I'm seeing in the Horny Beer that I started yesterday (relative to the two "backup" controls which haven't yet had any lacto added to them).

For comparison, Star San is considered an effective sanitizer when its Ph is 3.5 and below.... Well, I'm not sure how comparable that really is, but it's the only reference point I have at the moment.

 

[NeverDie]

For anyone who may be interested, I found an academic analysis of the Hornindal yeast in beer brewing that shows (Figure 34) how the concentration of various sensory compounds changes depending on temperature. Fortunately, Table 2 of the same paper maps those compounds onto recognizable names of matching smells/tastes. Thus, you can see analytically in what ways the details of the aroma/flavor profile changes as a function of temperature. https://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/handle/11250/2390204

Anyhow, it seems like it would be extremely useful information for picking the right fermentation temperature. I only wish I had this kind of data for all the different yeast strains that I might ever want to use....

 

[RPh_Guy]

For anyone who may be interested, I found an academic analysis of a Hornindal yeast in beer brewing that shows (Figure 34) how the concentration of various sensory compounds changes depending on temperature. Fortunately, Table 2 of the same paper maps those compounds onto recognizable names of matching smells/tastes. Thus, you can see analytically in what ways the details of the aroma/flavor profile changes as a function of temperature. https://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/handle/11250/2390204

Anyhow, it seems like it would be extremely useful information for picking the right fermentation temperature. I only wish I had this kind of data for all the different yeasts that I might ever want to use....

You're a researcher; that's great!

I skimmed through... The original kveik cultures are multi-strain. They isolated their own single strain for testing, right? Therefore it may not be (probably isn't) the exact same strain from Omega and may behave differently.

Fermentation temperature is just part of the picture. There are also other factors that affect flavor besides temperature: Pitch rate, nutrients, etc.

Unfortunately many times you just simply can't get reliable answers to your brewing questions because each of us is using slightly different procedures. Using the same recipe, 10 brewers may create 10 different beers. The ambiguity and guesswork is what helps keep things interesting.
Brew a recipe and then see what needs changed for next time. Adjusting different factors will show how each one affects the outcome on your system.

Hope this helps

 

[Blacksmith1]

Pitch rate is what, how much active yeast is added?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Pitch rate is what, how much active yeast is added?

Right. For beer we typically express pitch rate as number of cells per volume per gravity. Wine pitch rate tends to just use dry weight of the yeast per volume.

 

[NeverDie]

I skimmed through... The original kveik cultures are multi-strain. They isolated their own single strain for testing, right? Therefore it may not be (probably isn't) the exact same strain from Omega and may behave differently.

Good question. Early in the paper it said merely that the yeast was sourced from Hornindal, which would bolster your justified skepticism, but then later, on the top of page 26 it gets more specific and says, "
Kveik collected by Lars Marius Garshol (http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/)
have been donated to IBT for studies of genetic and beer fermentation properties."

Then, from https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/3l5m2d/omegalabs_releases_norwegian_kveik/ it appears that the same Lars is the source of the Hornindal yeast to NCYC, which supplied it to Omega Labs.

So, I still don't know for certain, but it's starting to sound more likely that maybe it is the same strain. Perhaps only Lars can answer the question for sure.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Lars and NCYC had the multistrain (NCYC isolated several different strains from the culture).
AFAIK Omega is selling a single strain.

This study also picked a single strain, independently.

 

[z-bob]

I just finished cooking the flour. 20 ounces of flour in about a gallon and a half of water. I would have never believed you could cook that over high heat w/o it sticking and burning and generally making a huge mess.

I threw in just a handful of ground malt at the beginning. Heated over medium heat while stirring with a whisk until it got to about 145, then turned it down and heated slowly till about 170, then turned the fire all the way up. It never did try to stick. It did try to boil over at the end; lots of foam. Next time I won't have to watch it and stir the whole time, just check on it occasionally and watch it when it gets to 200.

I'm going to use pale ale malt for this, because real farmhouse beers were probably brewed with darker-kilned malt that pilsner, plus I'm a little concerned about DMS if I go too light with the malt. Gotta go finish grinding the malt and dragging out my brew kettle, etc.

 

[z-bob]

I wonder if this thread should be moved to the beer forum?

 

[NeverDie]

I wonder if this thread should be moved to the beer forum?

Fine with me, especially given where we are with it now.

 

[NeverDie]

First tasting, about 27 hours after inoculation:

1. Official recipe, after having fermented at 95F: This is pure subjectivity, but it tastes like a slightly sour mix of very slightly alcoholic (1%?), rather watery mixture of flour and water. No malty flavor per se. i.e. whatever it's going to be, it tastes like it has quite a ways to go in getting there. I'm afraid I may not have enough of the brew to test its SG every day using a hydrometer, so unless you guys are just dying to know, I'll save SG measurements for when there seems to be more meaningful milestones.

2. The "backup" control batch, after having fermented at 70F (room temperature). As a reminder, this batch did not have any lacto added to it. It tastes similar to #1, except it does have a malty taste to it, and no sourness per se. It also tastes very "unfinished".

No judgment here. I'm just reporting the current status. Given the deliberate underpitching of the Hornindal yeast, and no starter either, I'm not surprised that it's starting out kinda slow compared to, say, a kveik cider or a kveik mead.

[Edit: I'm moving one of the "backup" control batches into the 95F water bath, whch should speed it up. If it subsequently makes good progress (faster than the official batch), I may innoculate it with the lacto at either that point, or later. ]

 

[NeverDie]

I sampled it again, and it is progressing.

I suspect my wort was/is low in oxygen, as I took no special steps to oxygenate it, and I put it under airlock (to avoid infection) right after adding the wort to the sterilized mason jar.

Aside from shaking the container at the very beginning to oxygenate it, are there better ways to oxygenate the wort that don't risk infection? I mean, I've read about people pumping air through the wort with an airstone hooked up to an aquarium air pump, but...that sounds like risking infection. Hooking it up to a tank of pure oxygen would probably work great, but maybe (?) at high expense.

Maybe putting the wort on a stir plate at high RPM for a couple hours at the very beginning would do the job? Part of the problem is that I have no way of judging the oxygenation level, so this is all just wild guesswork.

Anything better come to mind?

 

[NeverDie]

OK, I'm not sure how well it will work for this application, but I'm ordering this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EJ3DQ4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
to try to get a handle on the amount of dissolved oxygen in the wort. From what I've read, the goal is 8-10ppm.

 

[NeverDie]

Roughly 48 hours have passed since pitching the wort. SG is 1.13. Compared to 24 hours ago, it tastes more sour, a little more alcoholic, and definitely more like... beer without hops. Maybe it's an acquired taste, like vegemite is to Australians. I wouldn't say it tastes sweet. Maybe semi-dry?

I'm guessing it's not finished.

Say, z-bob, how is yours coming along?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Common aeration methods:
Shaking. You need to shake for several minutes. Good for small batches.
Splashing. There are spray tips that attach to tubing to aid in oxygen pickup when transferring. Combine with shaking or stirring.
Stir tool. Drill-powered stirring is like shaking without the workout.
Aquarium pump with oxygen stone. A filter can be attached to purify the air going into the wort.
All the above methods achieve a maximum of 8ppm dissolved oxygen.
Pure O2 with an O2 stone is fast and effective. It can hit higher levels of oxygen.

Did you test OG? It's probably finished.
It should taste fruity and sour with light malty sweetness.
If you don't like it that's a bummer, but at least it delivered on being done quick.

 

[z-bob]

I haven't pitched the yeast yet. It was too warm last night to add the yeast or lacto, so I went to bed. This morning it was 70°. I added 2 cups of the sour starter. When I got home from church I put an insulating jacket on it and a heating pad and temperature controller. It's heating pretty slowly even with the pad on HI. I will probably add the yeast tomorrow.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I haven't pitched the yeast yet. It was too warm last night to add the yeast or lacto, so I went to bed. This morning it was 70°. I added 2 cups of the sour starter. When I got home from church I put an insulating jacket on it and a heating pad and temperature controller. It's heating pretty slowly even with the pad on HI. I will probably add the yeast tomorrow.

Consider adding the yeast now. Acidity suppresses yeast expression.

 

[NeverDie]

Did you test OG? It's probably finished.

I didn't test for OG. Maybe next time, as I'm sure it would be the same.

It should taste fruity and sour with light malty sweetness.

It has 1 out of those 3, namely sour. No fruity taste, and it did'n't really rise to the level of "light malty sweetness". Both of those missing things would be a huge improvement, I'm sure. If I had to point the finger, it's probably my lack of proper oxygenation. Once I get my test kit, maybe I'll be able to test for that.

I wouldn't mind trying again, but I'd like to hear how it works out for you guys first. Well, actually, z-bob did something different, so I won't really know from his results.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'll brew it myself in the next few weeks. Just need the weather here to warm up a little.

Edit: It may improve when it's cold and carbonated.

 

[z-bob]

Consider adding the yeast now. Acidity suppresses yeast expression.

The temperature is finally over 80 degrees, and rising more rapidly now (I took the cover off the heating pad.) And I noticed the airlock is bubbling now -- I seem to have a wild fermentation going and it's rather vigorous. The surface of the wort is fizzing. I added a few ounces of kveik slurry. I better take the whole thing down to the utility room in case it geysers overnight.

 

[NeverDie]

I tried the two backup brews (the ones which hadn't yet had lacto), and they both had developed a much stronger malt flavor than the prescribed brew that was innoculated with the yeast and lacto at the same time. So, I went ahead and innoculated them with the lacto tonight, and we'll see what happens. Maybe it's purely a timing issue.

It would be cool if there were some kind of photosynthetic organism you could add to your brew at the very beginning. Then you flood it with light and voila! it releases oxygen into your wort. When it gets to the desired level, you switch off the light for the duration of the brew, add the yeast, and off you go with properly oxygenated wort.

Of course, the downside might be that it tastes like swamp water....

 

[z-bob]

This morning the temperature is 95 degrees and the airlock is still bubbling furiously. No overflow. No bad smells, but I didn't stick my nose down in it.

Next time I do this, I should pasteurize the hot wort, then chill down to 100° and transfer it to the fermenter, so I can inoculate it quickly, right?

I'm planning to bottle this stuff and carbonate it. Probably ought to use disposable plastic bottles; I don't want any glass bottle-bombs.

 

[NeverDie]

Maybe it would be easier to skip the bacteria and just add lactic acid directly? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064OGF46/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Would that work just as well?

 

[z-bob]

Maybe it would be easier to skip the bacteria and just add lactic acid directly? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064OGF46/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Would that work just as well?

That would work, but it would be wrong

 

[RPh_Guy]

You can also skip the fermentation and just add vodka.

 

[z-bob]

Well, the airlock has stopped bubbling. So I assume it's almost finished. I'll give it another day or two and then open it up and see what I got.

Edit: I'll probably take the jacket off tomorrow just to see what it looks like. I forgot it's in a glass carboy (I usually use plastic.) Past beers made with kveik yeast have flocc'd out so thoroughly they didn't really want to carbonate in the bottles, but I might have waited too long to bottle. I'm hoping when this drops out, it takes the wild yeast and most of the other cloudiness out with it.

 

[NeverDie]

I had to dump the original, but the backup seems to be in the ballpark now. I'd say I like it better than all the other beers I've tried, so in that sense I'd label it a success.

 

[z-bob]

I took a peek at mine this morning, but haven't taken the airlock or the heater off yet. It has lightened in color quite a bit, and is still very cloudy. Of course the lighter color could just be all the suspended yeast scattering the light. (during peak activity, my ciders sometimes look like skim milk with a little orange juice ) I will take the heater off when I get home this evening and let the temperature drop to mid-60's or 70; see if that clears it any.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I had to dump the original, but the backup seems to be in the ballpark now. I'd say I like it better than all the other beers I've tried, so in that sense I'd label it a success.

Cool, sounds like a good starting point with a quick turn around.
There are lots of different ingredients and processes you can adjust to make it more to your taste and add variety.

Cheers!

@z-bob
My Omega Voss ale never cleared. It's the haziest thing I've ever made.

 

[NeverDie]

Common aeration methods:
Shaking. You need to shake for several minutes. Good for small batches.
Splashing. There are spray tips that attach to tubing to aid in oxygen pickup when transferring. Combine with shaking or stirring.
Stir tool. Drill-powered stirring is like shaking without the workout.
Aquarium pump with oxygen stone. A filter can be attached to purify the air going into the wort.
All the above methods achieve a maximum of 8ppm dissolved oxygen.
Pure O2 with an O2 stone is fast and effective. It can hit higher levels of oxygen.

Which of those methods, if any, are you using? At the moment I'm leaning toward the aquarium pump with a filter and a 0.5 micron stainless steel brewer's aeration stone to see how that goes, but that's partly because I already have some aquarium pumps laying around. Plan B would be to whip some air into it using a stir plate set at high RPM. Seems like putting it under pressure might (?) also work (similar to carbonation).

 

[bleme]

Which of those methods, if any, are you using? At the moment I'm leaning toward the aquarium pump with a filter and a 0.5 micron stainless steel brewer's aeration stone to see how that goes, but that's partly because I already have some aquarium pumps laying around.

The aquarium pump is what I use. Results seems the same as when I used to shake, but it is a lot less work. Although, looking at my gut, more work wouldn't be a bad thing...

 

[RPh_Guy]

I use a
https://www.morebeer.com/products/vortex-carboy-cleaner-wort-aerator.html
And a
https://www.morebeer.com/products/siphon-spray-wort-aerator.html
And I generally make vitality starters for liquid yeast.

Besides potentially helping with cleaning, the stirrer is good for degassing mead & wine and also for mixing cleaning solution. It can also whirlpool wort in a kettle.

Keep in mind your kviek finished in under 48hrs without off flavors; there was obviously nothing wrong with the fermentation. That's still exceptionally fast for any fermented alcoholic beverage made without kviek.
The lack of yeast flavor was probably from souring. I suspect the Lacto pitch was too soon and needed to be delayed maybe 12 hours.
Different malts can add more malt flavor and/or sweetness, depending on what you want. Light DME is just the bare minimum baseline.

 

[NeverDie]

Different malts can add more malt flavor and/or sweetness, depending on what you want.

I'd like to take it all the way and make something that tastes like Whoppers (malted milk balls).

 

[NeverDie]

I'd like to take it all the way and make something that tastes like Whoppers (malted milk balls).

Well, after looking in to it, it turns out there are already some malted milk ball beers (one was even rated as "outstanding" by beeradvocate), but because it is a kind of milk stout, I'm guesssing that the lactobacillus used in this thread's current recipe would ruin the objective by more or less converting the milk into yogurt.

 

[Blacksmith1]

do it anyway. if ( and only if ) it works send me some.

 

[NeverDie]

Well, after looking in to it, it turns out there are already some malted milk ball beers (one was even rated as "outstanding" by beeradvocate), but because it is a kind of milk stout, I'm guesssing that the lactobacillus used in this thread's current recipe would ruin the objective by more or less converting the milk into yogurt.

do it anyway. if ( and only if ) it works send me some.

do it anyway. if ( and only if ) it works send me some.

The "secret sauce" seems to be finding the right malted barley extracts to use. Here's the ingredients list from Carnation Malted Milk:

I have no idea how to pick the right ones, or even where to begin in deciding that.

Anyway, one of the beer kits says to use two of the above "carnation malted milk" packages in its preparation. Maybe just ferment that by itself and see what happens? How far off could it be anyway?

The one thing better than malted milk might be fermented malted milk. Or, maybe sour malted milk? That would be different. I now have gobs of lactobacillus to use up, so it might be worth a shot.... Instead of using DME in rph_guy's recipe, maybe use the above instead. Would that work? If it weren't for the wheat flour, it seems to me that the primary ingredient would be very similar.

And I do wonder how much the wheat flour contributes to the flavor, or whether it's just a cheap filler and thickener. LOL, maybe this should be fermented using baker's yeast!

So, to preserve the flavor, maybe add enough additional DME to compensate for whatever amount gets eaten by the yeast. Or, if I were to add corn sugar instead, would the yeast eat mostly it preferentially before the DME?