Anything wrong with fermenting the must at 95F?

[z-bob]

Nice. Consider adding 20-50% wheat.
If you're feeling lazy (or adventurous), you don't need to boil.
No starters.

Lacto will definitely sour the beer without a head start.
L. plantarum is the king of quick souring; YMMV with other species.
If you don't want to buy a Lacto culture/probiotic/yogurt, I would use grain. It's less predictable but it should work just fine with minimal risk in this process.

Wasn't planning to boil it. Is the wheat to supply ferulic acid for phenolic compounds? I didn't think kveik yeast (I'm using Voss) was POF+. Or is wheat for head retention or something?

4.5 lbs of base malt and 20 oz of flour should get me just over 1.050 in 3 gallons, depending on the conversion efficiency. I have Belgian pilsner malt, Rahr 2-row, and Rahr pale ale malt; will probably use the pils because it's the oldest. I also have a little cara-wheat and cara-rye malt, but those would probably be out of place.

It will be a cheap and quick experiment, and if it stinks I can get rid of it before Wife gets home.

 

[NeverDie]

It will be a cheap and quick experiment, and if it stinks I can get rid of it before Wife gets home.

What?! Is this a theoretical beverage that no one has tried before?

 

[bleme]

What?! Is this a theoretical beverage that no one has tried before?

Basically. The appeal of homebrewing to a lot of us is that we can 'wing it'. The more experience and education you acquire, the more often your experiments turn out good.

 

[z-bob]

What?! Is this a theoretical beverage that no one has tried before?

Well, I think RPh_Guy has tried something close. I've never tried it before, but I have tasted a Berliner Weiss once.

Even if it turns out terrible, it will be good practice for making Sauergut for acidifying my mashes.

 

[NeverDie]

Well, I think RPh_Guy has tried something close. I've never tried it before, but I have tasted a Berliner Weiss once.

Aha, thanks for the context. It does sound something like a more alcohol version of Berliner Weiss, which can't have been all bad, since, according to Wikipedia, "At the height of Berliner Weisse production in the 19th century, it was the most popular alcoholic drink in Berlin, and 700 breweries produced it.[10] " Plus, I imagine that sweet and sour likely go together better than sweet and bitter (hops), so it should at the very least be an upgrade.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is the wheat to supply ferulic acid for phenolic compounds?

No, there should be no phenol production.
I just like wheat. It adds more depth to the grist without adding sweetness or taking focus away from the microbial flavors. It's common to use wheat in traditional sour styles.

I'm pretty sure you know this already, but the wheat flour needs to be mashed.

Is this a theoretical beverage that no one has tried before?

It's a farmhouse ale with kveik yeast. This variant is sour, fruity, and non-phenolic.
It's not a new style of beer, but the yeast is relatively new for commercial use. Here's a good article:
https://draftmag.com/kveik-the-hottest-new-centuries-old-beer-yeast-youve-never-heard-of/

This recipe is similar to a Berliner Weisse, but doesn't quite hit all the numbers and is fruity from the kveik.

 

[z-bob]

I'm pretty sure you know this already, but the wheat flour needs to be mashed.

Yup. I'll boil it in 2 gallons of water (will hold it at 150° for a few minutes on the way to a boil, with a handful of malt thrown in), then add a gallon of cold water, and heat it back up to strike temperature. (it should be pretty close.)

 

[z-bob]

@RPh_Guy: Earlier you mentioned yogurt. Isn't that the wrong strain of lacto? (L. casei) But if it works anyway, it's probably safer than using wild bacteria; less likely to end up with 3 gallons of beer that smells like vomit.

Maybe I should try making a half gallon of Sauergut first, then use some of that for my starter...

 

[RPh_Guy]

L. plantarum is still the best, but we have a lot of flexibility in this beer because we're already maintaining a high temp and we're co-souring so speed isn't quite as important.

Different yogurts all have different blends of Lacto species and different strains. Since Lacto is well-adapted to living at mammals' body temperature, any yogurt with "live cultures" should provide Lacto, and that Lacto will sour at 95-100°F. Yogurt is safer than a wild culture from grain because there will be fewer other microbes besides Lacto. It needs to be fat-free.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources

Although not ideal, I think grain would be fine for this scenario. This isn't a kettle sour, so there's a LOT less risk involved regarding off-flavors from other contaminating bacteria. The kveik yeast will rapidly deplete oxygen, produce alcohol, and drop pH, reducing growth of the baddies.

If you do make a Lacto starter, only pitch a little of it. High acidity very early in fermentation will mute yeast expression.

Sauergut and grain also have wild yeast, which shouldn't be a problem in this recipe, but just be aware.

Cheers

 

[NeverDie]

I ordered this DME: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0038O8LVU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It seemed to get mostly positive reviews. I hope it's the right stuff, but if not, just let me know so I can try again.

Would the drink be any good without the sour lacto? The Omega lacto is shipping from out of town, so it will take a bit longer to get here.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I ordered this DME: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0038O8LVU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I hope it's the right stuff, but if not, just let me know so I can try again.

Would the drink be any good without the sour lacto? The Omega lacto is shipping from out of town, so it will take a bit longer to get here.

That'll work!

Lol... I'm wondering if you have only one week to live and decided to start brewing.

This recipe probably won't be good without souring bacteria. You can get Lacto probiotics (that's what I use) or fat-free yogurt locally if you want to try that instead of waiting for your shipment.

 

[NeverDie]

That'll work!

Lol... I'm wondering if you have only one week to live and decided to start brewing.

This recipe probably won't be good without souring bacteria. You can get Lacto probiotics (that's what I use) or fat-free yogurt locally if you want to try that instead of waiting for your shipment.

LOL. I suppose it probably looks that way!

I'll stick to your original plan

 

[z-bob]

I ordered this DME: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0038O8LVU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

That's good stuff. I use it to make starters. It's too expensive for me to brew with because I'm a cheapskate, but if I grossly miss my numbers on a brew I might use a little to boost the gravity.

 

[NeverDie]

I'll be receiving a stir plate tomorrow to help with preparing starters, but it already has me wondering: If I were to ferment using a stir plate to keep everything stirred up, how much faster (if at all) would it ferment? What kind of stir speed would be "optimal"? If I were to keep the solution spinning, would it in some sense already be largely "de-gassed" when fermentation was either finished or halted?

 

[RPh_Guy]

No starters needed for kveik. It will reach FG in 18-36 hours.

Do not use a stir plate for fermentation. It would oxidize the beer or wine.

 

[NeverDie]

I would use a tiny amount of Hornindal, like 1-2 drops.

1-2 drops seems like very little. Any particular reason for using such a small amount?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Pitching rate affects the flavor. Kveik seems to be best when drastically underpitched.

Even at a "normal" pitch rate (0.75M/mL/°P), you'd only need 11B cells for this batch (0.312 gallons of 1.050 wort). The Omega packet contains 150B cells, so you'd pitch about 7% of the yeast packet, adjusted for age of the package.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

I talked myself into making this as my next batch. I just ordered some Hornindal.

Edit: fixed math

 

[NeverDie]

BTW, I was just now reading https://www.homebrewtalk.com/lambic-sour-and-funky-mead-making-pt-1.html and the author said this about yogurt Lactobacillus: "most strains found in yogurt are very sensitive to alcohol and aren’t prime subjects for fermentation." Just thought I would mention that in case z-bob was tempted to go that route.

Looks as though my Omega Lacto should be arriving this Friday or Saturday, so I'll do this recipe then.

What should we call it, Rph_guy? You get to name it, though if you want a suggestion I kinda like the name "Horny Beer".

 

[z-bob]

Let's say hypothetically this works and turns out good. Would the dregs from a couple of bottles work for starting the next batch? (contains both a lacto that's known not to be awful, and kveik yeast)

 

[RPh_Guy]

BTW, I was just now reading https://www.homebrewtalk.com/lambic-sour-and-funky-mead-making-pt-1.html and the author said this about yogurt Lactobacillus: "most strains found in yogurt are very sensitive to alcohol and aren’t prime subjects for fermentation."

That's unlikely. Lacto species are generally alcohol-tolerant.

I can't find evidence either way and I don't trust that author.

Let's say hypothetically this works and turns out good. Would the dregs from a couple of bottles work for starting the next batch? (contains both a lacto that's known not to be awful, and kveik yeast)

Absolutely! Store refrigerated to ensure viability beyond a few weeks-months.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What should we call it, Rph_guy? You get to name it, though if you want a suggestion I kinda like the name "Horny Beer".

Haha! I don't know. I guess it is easy does finish really fast.

 

[NeverDie]

Lol, that is small, but whatever you want.

About 44oz filtered water (RO or distilled is best).
6oz light dry malt extract.
I would use a tiny amount of Hornindal, like 1-2 drops.
Omega 605 Lacto blend is good, or there are other options. Add about 1tsp of that.
Prime bottles individually, to 2.5-3.5 volumes.

That should give about 1.050 specific gravity, approx 5% ABV when finished.

I've received all the ingredients except for the lacto, and package tracking says the lacto will be delivered tomorrow. Hence, I plan to do this recipe sometime tomorrow.

1. How long should I boil the DME + water for? It seems as though typical beer instructions would say 1 hour, so I'm guess the same applies here?

2. Once I finish putting it all together, how will I know when it is "done"? Just by pulling SG samples from time to time? I have a TILT on order, but I don't think it will be arriving until after I get this batch started.

 

[bleme]

The 1-hour boil is to drive off DMS and extract hop bitterness. You don't have to worry about either of those. To make sure there aren't any wild bacteria in there, you can either bring it to a boil then immediately chill, or just take it to 180F for 10 minutes before chilling.

 

[RPh_Guy]

1. How long should I boil the DME + water for? It seems as though typical beer instructions would say 1 hour, so I'm guess the same applies here?

For 0.312 gallons:
Give this a try: Boil 44oz chlorine-free water in a pot (just bring to a boil). Turn off the heat. Add 6oz DME. Stir it up. Cool to 95-100°F. Transfer to your fermenter. Drop in a couple drops of kveik yeast and 1tsp Lacto plantarum (OYL605). Maintain temperature. That'll be ready to bottle in 1-3 days. Carbonate (if you want) to 2.5-3.5 volumes via bottle priming. It'll be really to drink in another 1-3 days.

That should give about 1.050 specific gravity, approx 5% ABV when finished.

Multiple identical hydrometer readings around expected FG means it's done. Should be around 1.010-1.015

 

[NeverDie]

Ah, so this will be a rather "dry" tasting beverage apparently. Would it be pornography to somehow make it semi-sweet or at least semi-dry? Or at least make it taste that way using xylitol or something (as dmtaylor sometimes does with his ciders when they overshoot and turn out dryer than he likes)?

Well, I can do this first batch as per your instructions so as to give it a fair trial, but I have a feeling that's where this will be heading.... I wouldn't mind doing the dry one and a sweeter one in parallel, so as to increase the odds of at least one happy outcome. Doing these as 5 cup batches is what gives me that extra flexibility.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It will not taste dry. Trust me

 

[RPh_Guy]

Multiple identical hydrometer readings around expected FG means it's done. Should be around 1.010-1.015

Clarification: identical hydrometer readings 3-6 hours apart...
For this yeast in the 95+ range.

For other slower fermentations the readings need to be days apart, or sometimes weeks apart.

 

[z-bob]

I've been surfing at that MTF website (never heard of it before) I'm making a lacto starter tonight. (I used 1 litre of tap water, a vitamin C tablet to get rid of chlorine, and 100 grams of DME). I'm boiling it now, then will cool to 100° and put it in a Thermos. Then add a handful of grain malt and cover it with saran wrap.

Not sure how much to add to 3 gallons of wort. I'll use the rest to seed a Sauergut reactor.

 

[RPh_Guy]

MTF is without question the most comprehensive resource for wild beer.

Lacto growth is rather poor in unbuffered media.
Just guessing, but I would use maybe 250mL for 3 gallons.

Maybe it goes without saying, but if the starter tastes or smells bad, don't use it.

Cheers

 

[z-bob]

Lacto growth is rather poor in unbuffered media.

Unbuffered?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Unbuffered?

Lactobacillus inhibits its own growth by producing acid. In other words it stops growing and stops producing acid once the pH drops to a certain level (strain-dependent).

In a Lacto starter designed to increase cell count, we use calcium carbonate as a buffer to neutralize acid and prevent the pH from dropping to the point where the Lacto stops growing. In this way, we drastically increase cell count.

Sauergut has different goals entirely: to promote growth of themo-tolerant yeast, and to produce acid.
You don't want to buffer a sauergut culture because you do want the acid.

 

[RPh_Guy]

BTW, I was just now reading https://www.homebrewtalk.com/lambic-sour-and-funky-mead-making-pt-1.html and the author said this about yogurt Lactobacillus: "most strains found in yogurt are very sensitive to alcohol and aren’t prime subjects for fermentation."

Found this. Using the right search terms helps.

 

[z-bob]

Lactobacillus inhibits its own growth by producing acid. In other words it stops growing and stops producing acid once the pH drops to a certain level (strain-dependent).

In a Lacto starter designed to increase cell count, we use calcium carbonate as a buffer to neutralize acid and prevent the pH from dropping to the point where the Lacto stops growing. In this way, we drastically increase cell count.

Sauergut has different goals entirely: to promote growth of themo-tolerant yeast, and to produce acid.
You don't want to buffer a sauergut culture because you do want the acid.

Thanks. My water has very high bicarbonate levels (I can't remember if it's 260 ppm or 300-something) so there's a good bit of buffering. I killed a little of that with the vitamin C I added. I have some potassium carbonate, but I think this will be okay without it. I want the pH to drop rapidly to inhibit other nasty bacteria that might be present.

But maybe I should use soft water for my sauergut. I'm hoping to get 2% lactic acid; I don't care how much or little bacteria is in it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I agree for all of that

 

[NeverDie]

Lol, that is small, but whatever you want.

About 44oz filtered water (RO or distilled is best).
6oz light dry malt extract.
I would use a tiny amount of Hornindal, like 1-2 drops.
Omega 605 Lacto blend is good, or there are other options. Add about 1tsp of that.
Prime bottles individually, to 2.5-3.5 volumes.

That should give about 1.050 specific gravity, approx 5% ABV when finished.

Your instructions don't mention a yeast nutrient. Is that an oversight? i.e. is yeast nutrient something that you do recommend?

 

[z-bob]

Your instructions don't mention a yeast nutrient. Is that an oversight? i.e. is yeast nutrient something that you do recommend?

Yeast nutrient is generally not necessary with malt fermentation. You could add a pinch if it makes you feel better

 

[NeverDie]

Yeast nutrient is generally not necessary with malt fermentation. You could add a pinch if it makes you feel better

Thanks! I've started making it. The DME doesn't completely dissolve despite repeated stirrings. It leaves a sediment on the bottom. I'm guessing this is normal.

 

[z-bob]

I just checked on my lacto thermos. The temperature dropped from 100 to 88 overnight, which should be fine. The wort still smells and tastes sweet; there's no acid at all. Shirley it should be sour by now! Is it possible the grain I added had no bugs in it? I used pale ale malt, just because it's the freshest. My 2-row is over a year old and the pilsner is 2 or 3 years old.

I should probably boil it again, strain it, and add 2-row or pils (why not both?) because they weren't kilned as high.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Shirley it should be sour by now!

I really have no idea, and don't call me Shirley!

 

[NeverDie]

The directions on the back of the Omega lacto package say "To kettle sour a 5 gallon batch, directly pour pack into unhopped wort and allow to sour to desired level before performing a second boil to kill the lactobacillus. Maximum acidity should be reached within 24 to 72 hours depending on temperature."

Are we planning to let it sour to the maximum amount? Or, is the plan to kill the lacto before it goes all the way to that extreme? Based on the directions given, I'm guessing the former rather than the latter.

I made 3 batches of wort, and right now I'm just waiting for everything to cool to the point where I can innoculate. I'll be doing one of the batches according to rph_guy's directions (above). However, in case I need to troubleshoot, I'll be holding off on adding the lacto to the other two. I intend for them to be backups in case I somehow botch the first batch.