Anything wrong with fermenting the must at 95F?

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NeverDie

NeverDie

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[I apologize in advance for crossposting this, but I realized too late that the thread I posted it to on a different forum was dead. I'll ask the moderator there to delete it, and this will now be the official thread.]

I've started making my first wine fermentation using bread yeast. From some googling I've read that the ideal fermentation temperature for bread yeast is 95F (but the same question applies--see below--about Premier Cuvee wine yeast). Being impatient, I want this fermentation to go as quickly as possible. Is there anything wrong with fermenting the wine at 95F? I'm able to control the "must" temperature to within 1F, and I can dial in any temperature that I want to. That's because I have the fermentation vessel sitting in a water bath, and I can control the water bath temperature to within 1 degree with a thermostat control and a temperature probe. I just wanted to be crystal clear that I'm *not* talking about ambient air temperature, but rather the temperature of the "must" itself.

Please advise.

[Edit:
Here's the link about the optimal temperature for bread yeast (from its perspective) being 95F: (... sorry the forum software won't let me post the link because it thinks it may be spam). It also graphs how fermentation speed increases with temperature.

Of course, wine isn't bread, but wouldn't the yeast be happiest at the same 95F regardless of what the growth medium is? Well, I can only guess, which is why I'm asking.

When I've read forum posts about wine fermenting temperatures, the answers that typically get posted are of the form "Well, *I* like to ferment at X temperature, and so that's what I recommend for you." The trouble with that is that it's just some unknown guy's opinion, and for all I know he never tried a different temperature, or else maybe arrived at that conclusion from noisy data. So, what I'm looking for here is some science in the answer, not just a string of anecdotes.

The problem with looking at the spec sheet for a wine yeast (which I'll try in the next batch) is that it gives a fermentation *range*. It doesn't come out and say what the most optimal temperature is in that range. So, for example, the Premier Cuvee wine yeast (and I was going to post a link here to the specsheet, but again was prevented) has a temperature range of 45F-95F. But does that mean anything in that range is perfectly fine (in which case, why go slow when you can go fast), or is optimal near the midpoint, or....? ]
 
Well I tried it, and with baker's yeast and yeast nutrient nearly all the vigorous fermentation was over in 4 days, but the alcohol percentage only got to about 7-8%. The starting BRIX was 30. No offensive flavors, but it still tasted a bit too much like grape juice. Obviously, plenty of sugar still left, so is the only reason it slowed down because it poisoned itself with ethanol?

So, I'm setting that aside to progress at room temperature (around 70F) and am trying it now with wine yeast, which has a higher ethanol tolerance. Since I'm trying this in just a ~2 liter container, I raised the entire must to 100F to activate the yeast for 20 minutes (congruent with the yeast datasheet activation instructions) and then let it fall back to 95F.

The datasheet (see above link helpfully provided by Blacksmith1--thanks!) seems a bit contradictory, because it says "Yeast activity will be reduced with higher or lower temperatures" than 97-102F, yet its recommended range tops out at 95F. Hmmm.... Uh, what kind of "activity" are we talking about? Why isn't the high end of its "range" 102 degrees then? i.e. why isn't 97-102F "optimal"?

Anyone know?
 
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Here's some motivation to care: an "optimal" wine fermentation can take nearly half as long as a long fermentation:
fermentation_graph.png

https://www.awri.com.au/industry_su...es/wine_fermentation/fermentation_calculator/
 
Just curious? What's the hurry? Knocking 48 hours off your ferment means what, in the 3-month+ process of making wine good wine?

Now if you are just fermenting to drink it ASAP (unfinished) then I've found a summer ferment in house at 78* is half the time as house at 70*.
 
lukebuz said:
Just curious? What's the hurry? Knocking 48 hours off your ferment means what, in the 3-month+ process of making wine good wine?

Now if you are just fermenting to drink it ASAP (unfinished) then I've found a summer ferment in house at 78* is half the time as house at 70*.
Click to expand...

Point taken. What I'm wondering though is whether anything bad happens from fermenting at the higher, faster temperatures.

--------------------------

Update: the wine yeast takes off like a rocket (much faster than the bread yeast I tried earlier). Within a couple hours it seems to be going full tilt already. It's impressive that a dry packet of anything can wake up from dormancy and go to work in so little time.
 
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You tend to stress yeast when you increase the temperature above their preferred living conditions. Yeast are living organisms. So increasing the temperature above the temperature at which they are known to prefer is a bit like locking yourself in your car around noon in July with the windows shut and the air conditioner off and being forced to solve arithmetical problems after 3 hours without anything to drink. Yeast will tell you that they are stressed by producing all kinds of chemical compounds most of which you would much prefer them not to produce. It's a kind of karma. You stress the yeast and they return the favor and stress you.
But that's wine yeast. Bread yeast have been cultured to prefer the sugars found in flour and we tend not to care very much about the flavors of the alcohol they produce because after a few hours (or a little longer if you make artisan loaves) we boil off the alcohol in the oven when we bake the bread. That, and because bread yeast has been cultured not to flocculate like wine yeast, bread yeast tends to hang around for months in your wine. Wine yeast have been developed to gather (flocculate) and then drop out of solution. So... making wine with bread yeast is something you can do but it's unlikely to make a very good tasting wine even with the best of conditions. Your call, of course.
 
All yeast strains have an optimal temperature range for fermentation. Exceeding that temp., or fermenting near the top part of the range tends to lead to increased production of fusel alcohols and undesirable esters, phenols, and aldehydes. Some of which can be cleaned by the yeast eventually, but not all. As a general rule, fermentation in the lower part of a yeast strain's stated range is preferred. Ok, I'm coming from much more experience on the beer side, although I've done a number of fruit wines and meads over the past couple years. And I don't have any references- you can do a search on the forum if you're really interested. Or do a little research in any number of books from J.P's 'How to Brew', to the Brewing Element Series "Yeast" book.
 
JimRausch said:
All yeast strains have an optimal temperature range for fermentation. Exceeding that temp., or fermenting near the top part of the range tends to lead to increased production of fusel alcohols and undesirable esters, phenols, and aldehydes. Some of which can be cleaned by the yeast eventually, but not all.
Click to expand...

Are there any simple tests that quantify their presence/existence?
 
When your little yeasties make fusel alcohols and undesirable phenols, you will know it. It makes even a low ABV taste "hot" and harsh.
 
Well, the first batch gave me a horrible headache, even though it tasted weak. According to the Yeast book (thanks for the reference), the headache is likely from fusel alcohols, which are more likely to be produced at higher temps. Conclusion: it was a disaster, even though I pegged it at the high end of the range.

So, clearly, a lower temp would be better. How low? The midpoint of the range? I have no idea.

I ordered some distiller's "turbo yeast" as an experiment. For it, at least the instructions are pretty clear about what the narrow "optimal" temperature range is. And for it, what's optimal depends on what the desired ABV is. For 14% ABV, the temperature range is wider than for a 20% ABV. Go figure.
 
Makes sense. If you want higher ABV you are going to stress the yeast with the alcohol content. So finding the "sweet spot" temp wise will give the yeast a better chance to handle the alcohol stress as opposed to the temp stress.
If I were to pick an end, I'd go to the lower temp as this seems to give a cleaner ferment
 
Distiller's yeast is not a good yeast for making wine. It's like taking a sledge hammer to walnuts. Sure, you'll smash the shell and expose the meat but cracking your teeth on a mashup of shell and kernel ain't no-one's idea of a fun experience.. Wine yeasts have been developed to bring out the color, the flavor of fruit and have been developed to enhance aspects of the fruit and mask other characteristics. Distiller's yeast has been developed to prepare a wine to be distilled. And distillation doesn't care about enhancing flavor or color or mouthfeel.. That is done in the aging... Horses for courses and you are picking a three legged donkey for the steeplechase.. Sorry.
 
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I need some kind of fusel alcohol detector (other than my brain), or preferably measurement device. Does anything simple like that exist? Then I would just dump a batch if it reads too high. Getting a headache is ruining the fun of this.

The yeast book suggests a gas chromatograph can be used. That's $1K or more on amazon. Anything cheaper?
 
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I guess what I'm discovering here is that wine is the wrong target for me. I don't want to wait months. I'd rather make something still palatable (and without headaches), but in a shorter timeframe (preferably a week, but 2 weeks max). I'm not into beer or ales though. So, what all, if anything, fits that timeframe? Mead?
 
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NeverDie said:
I guess what I'm discovering here is that wine is the wrong target for me. I don't want to wait months. I'd rather make something still palatable (and without headaches), but in a shorter timeframe (preferably a week, but 2 weeks max). I'm not into beer or ales though. So, what all, if anything, fits that timeframe? Mead?
Click to expand...
You want to ferment something palatable that is not beer in two weeks start to finish? I would consider a different hobby and just buy your fermented beverages. I don't make mead but my friends who do never serve theirs within two weeks of starting it.

I have made numerous batches of kegged and force carbonated hard cider and while some of them might have been technically drinkable after two weeks they were always much better tasting and clearer after several weeks. You could I suppose filter the cider and then force carbonate it to get it ready in a couple weeks but you are then adding the expense of filtration and kegging equipment. I did this once and while it was a PITA to filter it because of residual CO2 slowing the filtering process, the cider did clarify and tasted pretty good almost immediately.
 
You might can get there using kveik yeast to ferment apple juice or table grape juice at kinda high temperatures, then force carbonating it. The stuff ferments very fast and drops clear in just a few days.
 
z-bob said:
You might can get there using kveik yeast to ferment apple juice or table grape juice at kinda high temperatures, then force carbonating it. The stuff ferments very fast and drops clear in just a few days.
Click to expand...

What's the total time frame? And how high is "kinda high"?
-------------------------------
Hmm.. This may be the ideal yeast for me. Apparently anything from 65F to 104F is fine for Kveik. It allegedly ferments very fast and has the same ester profile regardless of the temp in that range (which the article admits is quite different from the more commonly used yeasts): https://webcache.googleusercontent....uve-never-heard-of/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Thanks for the tip! I'll order some today.
 
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NeverDie said:
I guess what I'm discovering here is that wine is the wrong target for me. I don't want to wait months. I'd rather make something still palatable (and without headaches), but in a shorter timeframe (preferably a week, but 2 weeks max). I'm not into beer or ales though. So, what all, if anything, fits that timeframe? Mead?
Click to expand...

Crack open a bottle of scotch. That takes about 20 seconds. Fermentation is a living process. It takes time. If you don't have the time then the process ain't for you. Even brewing a beer takes about three weeks. That's not a criticism. It's a simple fact of life.
 
bernardsmith said:
Crack open a bottle of scotch. That takes about 20 seconds. Fermentation is a living process. It takes time. If you don't have the time then the process ain't for you. Even brewing a beer takes about three weeks. That's not a criticism. It's a simple fact of life.
Click to expand...

You haven't said how long it takes you. What's the fastest you can do it, aside from cracking open a bottle of scotch?
 
NeverDie said:
You haven't said how long it takes you. What's the fastest you can do it, aside from cracking open a bottle of scotch?
Click to expand...

It takes me to do what? Open a bottle of scotch? a few seconds and then a few seconds to pour and then another few to savor the aroma and then I sip it. But to make a wine - about two weeks of active fermentation, another three or four months of bulk aging, and then another 4-8 months aging in the bottle. Mead? About the same amount of time. Cider? Takes about the same amount of time to taste the way I like it but you can pitch yeast into some freshly pressed (non sorbated juice) and drink the stuff in a couple of weeks. It'll taste wonderful if all you want is the buzz. If you want to enjoy cider you might want to wait about a year for the harsh malic acids to be transformed into more gentle lactic acid.

The thing is that making wine (or mead) or fermenting anything - even cheese or making bread all takes time. It's like making love, not like winning a Formula One race: it's not all about how fast you do it. It's how well you do it. Speed, here, provides very little added value. Down hill skiing - Now that's a different story.

But here's the secret: You start making batches of wine today that you make using the best possible protocols and ingredients and you make batch after batch after batch and after about 8-12 months you now have a pipeline of good wines to enjoy and you continue to make batch after batch after batch. And that means that you don't give a rat's whizz how long any batch takes to full develop because you have batches that have been long developed. There is no law that requires you to make 5 gallon batches. You can make 3 gallon batches, 1 gallon batches, batches that are quart sized (that will give you one 750 ml bottle and another beer bottle sized batch. You can start a quart sized batch every day of the year...
 
bernardsmith said:
It takes me to do what? Open a bottle of scotch? a few seconds and then a few seconds to pour and then another few to savor the aroma and then I sip it. But to make a wine - about two weeks of active fermentation, another three or four months of bulk aging, and then another 4-8 months aging in the bottle. Mead? About the same amount of time. Cider? Takes about the same amount of time to taste the way I like it but you can pitch yeast into some freshly pressed (non sorbated juice) and drink the stuff in a couple of weeks. It'll taste wonderful if all you want is the buzz. If you want to enjoy cider you might want to wait about a year for the harsh malic acids to be transformed into more gentle lactic acid.

The thing is that making wine (or mead) or fermenting anything - even cheese or making bread all takes time. It's like making love, not like winning a Formula One race: it's not all about how fast you do it. It's how well you do it. Speed, here, provides very little added value. Down hill skiing - Now that's a different story.

But here's the secret: You start making batches of wine today that you make using the best possible protocols and ingredients and you make batch after batch after batch and after about 8-12 months you now have a pipeline of good wines to enjoy and you continue to make batch after batch after batch. And that means that you don't give a rat's whizz how long any batch takes to full develop because you have batches that have been long developed. There is no law that requires you to make 5 gallon batches. You can make 3 gallon batches, 1 gallon batches, batches that are quart sized (that will give you one 750 ml bottle and another beer bottle sized batch. You can start a quart sized batch every day of the year...
Click to expand...

Well, fair enough. Thank you for taking the time to explain what you meant.

In my case, at least early on, I want to try something with a faster turnaround (maybe the two week cider you mentioned) so that I at least know whether or not I'm on track. Otherwise, I could have a year's pipeline of drek and won't know for sure until it's too late.
 
But like professional cooks and chefs you taste your wine. You should tasting the wine every time there is a change in its status, every time you add or remove an ingredient every time you rack it. The more you know your wine the better a wine maker you will be. Making a wine without tasting it is like driving on the throughway with your eyes closed
 
bernardsmith said:
Making a wine without tasting it is like driving on the throughway with your eyes closed
Click to expand...
Which is a lot of fun on a motorcycle. I get tasting it but until you have done a few to completion it's kinda hard to tell what you will get at the end. I have 4 gallons of wine and a 3L of cider waiting right now. One will hit the 2 month mark in about 12 days. what should one expect at that point as far as taste? I assume I should find a strong alcohol flavor no matter the ABV, as well as the original juice being somewhat in the background. I will be opening these at around 6 months to see if it's worth continuing. I am setting up for 5 gallon batches so I can get ahead of the game like you suggest but need to get something on the table. I've been drinking carlo rossi 3l's a) for the bottle, b) for something to drink. so if I wind up with a table wine at 6 months I'm ok with that.
 
But it is not about tasting it to predict how it might taste when you will bottle it. It's about tasting it after you add K-meta to taste what the must tastes like with the added sulfate. It's about tasting the must after you pitch the yeast to taste what the must tastes like with the added yeast, or tasting when you take a reading and the gravity has dropped 20 points, or 40 points or 90 points or tasting when you have allowed fruit to ferment in the secondary for 1 week or two weeks or three weeks or a week after you have added oak or two weeks after the addition of oak.. It's about understanding how wine shapes itself from start to finish. It's about you becoming familiar with fermentation of fruit or vegetables or flowers or honey. It's about you being able to predict what's about to happen and how to deal with what happens and how never to be gobsmacked by what has happened. It's about learning about the journey, every step of the way - not just the destination. But I admit it. I am a contrarian.
 
Which is a very long winded way of saying "until you have done a few to completion it's kinda hard to tell what you will get at the end." I get it, it's a long learning curve. and since taste is subjective there's really no way to tell someone what to expect other than generalities. Just like cooking. But the same principals apply, if you can figure out where you stand at this point, you can get a good idea of where you will wind up. At least that's my current opinion.
 
There's definitely no need for hops.

Give this a try:
Boil some chlorine-free water in a pot. Turn off the heat.
Add some pale and/or wheat DME. Stir it up.
Cool to 95-100°F.
Transfer to your fermenter.
Drop in some kveik yeast and Lacto plantarum. Maintain temperature.
That'll be ready to bottle in 1-3 days. Carbonate (if you want) via bottle priming.
It'll be really to drink in another 1-3 days.

This is really hard to screw up. The result will be tart, fruity, and delicious, unlike any beer you've ever had.

Voss kveik gives an orange fruity/marmalade flavor.
Hornindal kveik gives tropical fruit like pineapple and mango.
Hothead gives mango and honey.
 
RPh_Guy said:
There's definitely no need for hops.

Give this a try:
Boil some chlorine-free water in a pot. Turn off the heat.
Add some pale and/or wheat DME. Stir it up.
Cool to 95-100°F.
Transfer to your fermenter.
Drop in some kveik yeast and Lacto plantarum. Maintain temperature.
That'll be ready to bottle in 1-3 days. Carbonate (if you want) via bottle priming.
It'll be really to drink in another 1-3 days.

This is really hard to screw up. The result will be tart, fruity, and delicious, unlike any beer you've ever had.

Voss kveik gives an orange fruity/marmalade flavor.
Hornindal kveik gives tropical fruit like pineapple and mango.
Hothead gives mango and honey.
Click to expand...

OK, you've peaked my interest. I'd like to try that. Is this essentially a beer recipe without the hops? If so, then I can lookup a beer recipe to find out what the measured quantities of each ingredient are that I should be using.

Fortunately, I already have all 3 of the yeasts that you enumerated.
 
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It's a sour beer; the Lactobacillus adds acidity.
No hops are needed because the acidity balances the natural malt sweetness instead of bitterness.

I can provide the quantities if I know what batch size you want.

Cheers
 
RPh_Guy said:
It's a sour beer; the Lactobacillus adds acidity.
No hops are needed because the acidity balances the natural malt sweetness instead of bitterness.

I can provide the quantities if I know what batch size you want.

Cheers
Click to expand...
I'd like to try making a 5 cup batch. Is that too small? That way it will fit in my half gallon mason jar with plenty of headroom.
 
NeverDie said:
I'd like to try making a 5 cup batch. Is that too small? That way it will fit in my half gallon mason jar with plenty of headroom.
Click to expand...
Lol, that is small, but whatever you want.

About 44oz filtered water (RO or distilled is best).
6oz light dry malt extract.
I would use a tiny amount of Hornindal, like 1-2 drops.
Omega 605 Lacto blend is good, or there are other options. Add about 1tsp of that.
Prime bottles individually, to 2.5-3.5 volumes.

That should give about 1.050 specific gravity, approx 5% ABV when finished.
 
RPh_Guy said:
Lol, that is small, but whatever you want.

About 44oz filtered water (RO or distilled is best).
6oz light dry malt extract.
I would use a tiny amount of Hornindal, like 1-2 drops.
Omega 605 Lacto blend is good, or there are other options. Add about 1tsp of that.
Prime bottles individually, to 2.5-3.5 volumes.

That should give about 1.050 specific gravity, approx 5% ABV when finished.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I ordered the supplies.
 
@RPh_Guy: I was just coming here to ask for details on that sour beer, but ND beat me to it :) I may try brewing 3 gallons this weekend while Wife is out of town, but I'll go all-grain because I have lots of malt, but just a little DME that I use for starters.

You pitch the yeast at the same time as the lacto; don't give lacto a 24 hour head start? Also wondering if the specific lacto culture makes much difference; I would either add a handful of uncrushed pale malt to inoculate it, or use some sausage starter I have in the freezer -- but that might be pedio instead of lacto (I think it's Bactoferm LHP)
 
z-bob said:
@RPh_Guy: I was just coming here to ask for details on that sour beer, but ND beat me to it :) I may try brewing 3 gallons this weekend while Wife is out of town, but I'll go all-grain because I have lots of malt, but just a little DME that I use for starters.

You pitch the yeast at the same time as the lacto; don't give lacto a 24 hour head start? Also wondering if the specific lacto culture makes much difference; I would either add a handful of uncrushed pale malt to inoculate it, or use some sausage starter I have in the freezer -- but that might be pedio instead of lacto (I think it's Bactoferm LHP)
Click to expand...
Nice. Consider adding 20-50% wheat.
If you're feeling lazy (or adventurous), you don't need to boil.
No starters.

Lacto will definitely sour the beer without a head start.
L. plantarum is the king of quick souring; YMMV with other species.
If you don't want to buy a Lacto culture/probiotic/yogurt, I would use grain. It's less predictable but it should work just fine with minimal risk in this process.
 
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