Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?
- Thread starter kaz4121
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Mer-man
Well-Known Member
Did anyone try oats?
gotbags-10
Well-Known Member
You can call me lazy or just ignore me....but pouring through 53 pages of developing narrative is tough. I have followed this thread for a couple months and really just have one question...
For those who have chased this goal a while...what kind of water profile are you targeting? Any general concensus?
For those who have chased this goal a while...what kind of water profile are you targeting? Any general concensus?
Chloride heavy is the theme with fairly low sulfate. Most of this has been hypothesis and reported results have been mixed. I'm sure others will be able to chime in with a more insight than myself
irishrover32
Well-Known Member
I think around 100 cl 60 sulphate and 140 chloride, and then whatever bicarbonate u need to hit 5.35 mash PH that's wat I took from braufessors post who said it worked well for him I used that on my last brew so I'll se how it goes.
I would say post #276 has pretty much what I have been doing in exact detail. Not saying it is perfect or anything.... but I have been pretty happy with the beers. Hoping to do some more experimenting over the next 2-3 months when I have a little more free time.
In general though -
Calcium in the 100 range
Chloride in the 120-140 range
Sulfate in the 60-70 range
Using Lactic Acid (2-3 ml in 5 gallons of mash water) (1-1.5ml in spare water) for pH purposes as I have not been starting with 100% RO..... usually 60-80% RO and the rest is carbon filtered tap water that is high in bicarbonate.
I have been getting Mash pH in the 5.35-5.45 range
In general though -
Calcium in the 100 range
Chloride in the 120-140 range
Sulfate in the 60-70 range
Using Lactic Acid (2-3 ml in 5 gallons of mash water) (1-1.5ml in spare water) for pH purposes as I have not been starting with 100% RO..... usually 60-80% RO and the rest is carbon filtered tap water that is high in bicarbonate.
I have been getting Mash pH in the 5.35-5.45 range
irishrover32
Well-Known Member
thanks braufessor i tried this on mY
irishrover32
Well-Known Member
thanks braufessor i tried this on mY LAST IPA SO LOOKING FORWARD TO TRYING IT ILL KEEP YOU POSTED woops caps lock
Roadie
Well-Known Member
Your chloride/sulfate ratio is basically 2. I've historically used .19 (50 chloride and 267 sulfate) for IPA's so this is a new concept for me and I'll have to give it a try. This reversal is supposed to still enhance hoppiness while giving the beer a more silky mouthfeel?
irishrover32
Well-Known Member
as said before hoppieness depends entirely on the amount of hops you add to the beer. I think its apparent now that mineral additions dont enhance malt or hop but in fact alter the mouthfeel making it sharper or creamier. i think people like the idea of a sharp crisp hoppy beer and believe creamieness is just for stouts but infact they can be interchanged to make some great different beer.
I have done that ratio as well..... with 50ish chloride and 250 Sulfate. It makes a good/great IPA. Probably more traditional - crisp, assertive hop presence.
I think the 2:1 Chloride: Sulfate tends to make a more rounded, smoother hop presence. Personally, I think it works well with a full, rounded mouthfeel type IPA.
I would not say it is necessarily "better" than the traditional approach. But, it is different, and I like it..... as do lots of other people.
By the way, if you don't want to have to page through 50+ pages, you know you can change your default to 40 posts per page. Makes some of these monster threads a bit more manageable to me.
Barley_Bob
Well-Known Member
I just spent a ton of time catching up on this thread. I should maybe not leave it so long next time. Here's my thoughts on all of that reading:
- We probably can't all exactly replicate HF's mouthfeel every time. I'm happy with very good, and I think there's enough in the thread to get there.
- So what if HF (et al) don't do it? Adjuncts, maltodextrin, carapils - go to town. Make it work for you!
- Braufessor is the man!
- Yeast is probably the biggest factor you can use to improve mouthfeel, there's several options (including Conan, London Ale III (1318), Antwerp Ale), and there are probably even more good options we haven't hit on yet.
- Carbonation disappeared as a theme, but I still think it matters. And I'll take that to my grave!
- We probably can't all exactly replicate HF's mouthfeel every time. I'm happy with very good, and I think there's enough in the thread to get there.
- So what if HF (et al) don't do it? Adjuncts, maltodextrin, carapils - go to town. Make it work for you!
- Braufessor is the man!
- Yeast is probably the biggest factor you can use to improve mouthfeel, there's several options (including Conan, London Ale III (1318), Antwerp Ale), and there are probably even more good options we haven't hit on yet.
- Carbonation disappeared as a theme, but I still think it matters. And I'll take that to my grave!
Most egregiously offensive post ever. There are so many kick ass IPAs in the Midwest that I can't even. Can't. Even.
brewski09
Well-Known Member
gotbags-10
Well-Known Member
Sorry maybe should've clarified. At least in Indiana that's the only big IPA. Sure there's Bells, goose island , Founders and a few others but nothing that blows me away. all the Big famous ones are on the east and west coast. I didn't know I had it in me to make the most offensive post ever! [emoji3]
Barley_Bob
Well-Known Member
I guess it is pretty easy to be offensive on the internet.
There are some extremely good IPAs here. Zombie Dust (and others by 3F) obviously, and of course Founders and Bells. But there's a lot more going on, and I don't think it'll be long before folks are talking about the "big famous ones" here. Revolution's flagship Anti-Hero is fantastic, and it headlines several other excellent options. Spiteful's Selfies are for Wieners blows me away (seriously that good), and Half-Acre has some great options by all accounts (I've only had a couple of their's, and they weren't their best). Domaine Dupage's Wobble is very good, and rates very well. Tallgrass is not my favorite of the above, but it doesn't stop me from buying 8-Bit on occasion, and I know it has a loyal fan base. If you haven't had some of these, then let me be the first to tell you - you have bright days ahead, my friend.
Ha! Speaking of offensive posts....
I think you make a very good point, and I think what many people are missing is that these "premium" brewers that everyone is glowing about are mostly very VERY small brewers with very limited production. I think it is much more difficult to brew that premium product on a huge scale. Also, aren't a lot of these brews only available on site by the glass or growler fills? Maybe bottling or canning has some impact? You want to find a local beer that rivals those made by HF, Treehouse, Alchemist, Russian River, etc.? Don't look at all the big, popular brewers in your area. Start visiting all the smaller brewers. Just because they haven't been discovered YET doesn't mean they're not brewing amazing beer.
Oh, and since you were naming Midwest brewers, don't forget Toppling Goliath. I'm hoping to get to visit them during my Christmas trip to Iowa.
10 minutes from my house..... stop in for a beer, or shoot me a message and I can give you some other great tips for the area and other awesome places in Decorah.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
I assume the beers available at the brewery are actually made AT the brewery, which makes them a bit different from what you can get in bottles elsewhere (which are contract brewed and bottled out of FL). I mention this because I believe it's a HUGE difference between the two. I used to make trips to WI to pick up some PsuedoSue but found after several batches that it was no longer worth it. A trip to Decorah needs to be part of my future here soon...
Yeah.... IMO..... it was somewhat sketchy there for a while for sure. Although, I will say one of the recent batches of Florida Sue seemed better to me than some of the early ones. I think most of the beers are made in Decorah. Some (Dorothy's, Sue, Golden Nugget, Rover) have been done in big batches in Florida at Brewhub. I can't speak for all of them, because I don't buy most of those varieties in bottles. But, yeah, Sue was very disappointing to me too for a while there.
I picked up a case each of Sosus and Sue bombers at the tap room the other day. I thought both were really very good. The Decorah Bombers of Sue definitely had the "old" look back as far as appearance/cloudiness as well, in addition to great flavor and mouthfeel.
Barley_Bob
Well-Known Member
I'm way out of their distribution and I have no excuses to go to Iowa, so it must have slipped my mind. Inexcusable, I know. I can, however, find a rare excuse to go to Munster.
@Braufessor, if I come up with something out of Chicago, can I persuade you to make a swap?
Back onto topic, I do think that Gumballhead has a really amazing mouthfeel. I think I said that on, like, page one of this thread. I wish I could try HF to get a frame of reference, but that's what I'm always shooting for. Of course, Gumballhead has a ton of wheat to accomplish it. I've come close on getting a wheat IPA or APA all the way there, but I've never quite made it. The problem I've had, especially with Conan is overattenuation. I actually have completely given up on Conan for that reason. It really doesn't work for me. I did a Wheat IPA that was, like, 60% wheat, and Conan just ate right through it. It was one dry bastard. Does anyone have tips on that score?
i have been using conan for everything..... APA's, IPA's, Blonde Ale, Brown Ale, porter..... pretty much my house yeast. I either step it up from Heady Topper Cans or I use GigaYeast. I make a 1L starter 18 hours before I brew, and pitch the entire 1L right in while it is actively fermenting. First generation I always start it in a batch of 1.040 Blonde Ale. Low gravity, low hops. I harvest 6 one pint mason jars of slurry out of the blonde. I make sure I use one of those 6 jars on another blonde (to harvest 6 more jars). The other 5 I use in whatever I want.... usually hoppy brews. I always make a 1L starter and pitch it while actively fermenting. My gravity always ends up around 1.011-1.012 with this method. About perfect FG for my tastes.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
There are lots of examples of Conan crapping out on people at 1.020 or higher. It seems to be a really finicky yeast. Pitch rate and temp likely need to be in a particular range to get it to attenuate in your specific range. I've personally had it stall at 1.016 or so and also attenuate down to 1.012 on other beers (from different vials of TYB). Best advice I've heard is to pitch a healthy amount of active yeast (think yeast starter here) at 64 and after it starts slowing down (perhaps around day 3), raise the temp up to 68 to encourage attenuation.
But I've also heard people say it's a highly flocculating strain under the right conditions and I've never had that be the case for me.
But I've also heard people say it's a highly flocculating strain under the right conditions and I've never had that be the case for me.
Barley_Bob
Well-Known Member
Oh, here's another question - has anyone looked at how different sugars can influence body? I realize that the default answer is that sugar dries a beer out. Got it. But Belgians, and other beers made with candi sugars, have fantastic body. I realize also that much of that is probably from the yeast and FG, but I wonder. I know there have been side-by-sides for flavor, but have there been side-by-sides for texture? Would, say, an amber candi sugar increase body in an IPA?
geoffey
Well-Known Member
I think those beers get their body from other facets of the beer make up. Like using raw malt, or mashing higher, etc. I believe candi sugar is 100% fermentable, no matter if it's light, Amber or dark.
I agree with this - forgot to add. I pitch the active starter at 62-64 and it free rises to 68 or so. At day 3-4, I move it upstairs where ambient temp. is around 70 and let it finish from there.
I get pretty clear beer out of it if I let it sit and settle.... not crystal clear or anything. I have also used cold crashes and gelatin from time to time for very clear beer.
Just some notes from some other test batches I have done of late:
- Adding a lb of Carapils per 5gal - This simple addition has helped with the head retention and pillowy-ness and Carapils to my knowledge still considered a crystal malt, not an adjunct so I am thinking this may be what he is using in his batches to get that wicked head and lacing on his beers as when I use Carapils, my batches mirror his in regards to the head/lacing results.
- Keeping the grain bills simple. 2-Row and some Crystal 60 and the Carapils for IPAs, and just 2-Row a touch of Crystal 10 and Carapils for my Pale Ales. Sometimes simple is better.
- Started mashing higher - went up to 158/160 on the mash from 152/155..this has helped build out the body a bit more on those heavy IPAs.
- Keeping the sulfates around 66 and Chloride right around 126 (.50 S04/Cl Ratio)
- Adding some bicarbonates to the beer (I am using Pickling Lime which is helping bring the PH up to what I need (5.4/5.5 as well as adding some bicarbs)
- FWH'ing w/hop shots for bittering only and using pellets/leaves for hopstand/whirlpool additions. I swear I think alot of the "creamyness" he is getting with his beer with the mouthfeel in his IPAs is due to using hopshots early for bittering and the remainder is all flameout hops at 180/175deg and again right at 140/145deg. This is leaving alot of those rich hop oils in the beer which is giving it that nice soft "juicy" flavor. To quote someone else on this thread, at 140deg, don't be afraid to dump some serious hops into the hop stand.
- A yeast with a 75-80% attenuation BUT properly pitching the right amount of yeast. I also think this is key to leaving behind that smooth flavor that has the "juicy" texture to it. I have been using Conan pitched from dregs of HT and its landing with at about 75-77% attenuation with good results. I am doing what many of the others are doing on this thread with this yeast and fermenting at 65-68deg for a few days and raising the ambient temp up to 75 to finish it out. I rack the beer out of the fermenter at 2 weeks on the nose into the keg for dry hopping.
- Dry hopping in the keg and then jumping the beer to a clean CO2 purged keg before final carbing/chilling/serving. Again, this gives it that aroma without the hop clumps and with no oxygen being introduced during xfer, that aroma sticks around a bit longer I have noticed.
I am still not 100% there but with what I have been getting of late following these steps, its getting closer to what I want my IPAs and PAs to ultimately be and the folks who have been long time drinkers of my IPAs/PAs have noticed they have tasted much cleaner and juicer without that harsh bite which is a good thing.
Just sharing some of my results from my last few batches.
:rockin:
- Adding a lb of Carapils per 5gal - This simple addition has helped with the head retention and pillowy-ness and Carapils to my knowledge still considered a crystal malt, not an adjunct so I am thinking this may be what he is using in his batches to get that wicked head and lacing on his beers as when I use Carapils, my batches mirror his in regards to the head/lacing results.
- Keeping the grain bills simple. 2-Row and some Crystal 60 and the Carapils for IPAs, and just 2-Row a touch of Crystal 10 and Carapils for my Pale Ales. Sometimes simple is better.
- Started mashing higher - went up to 158/160 on the mash from 152/155..this has helped build out the body a bit more on those heavy IPAs.
- Keeping the sulfates around 66 and Chloride right around 126 (.50 S04/Cl Ratio)
- Adding some bicarbonates to the beer (I am using Pickling Lime which is helping bring the PH up to what I need (5.4/5.5 as well as adding some bicarbs)
- FWH'ing w/hop shots for bittering only and using pellets/leaves for hopstand/whirlpool additions. I swear I think alot of the "creamyness" he is getting with his beer with the mouthfeel in his IPAs is due to using hopshots early for bittering and the remainder is all flameout hops at 180/175deg and again right at 140/145deg. This is leaving alot of those rich hop oils in the beer which is giving it that nice soft "juicy" flavor. To quote someone else on this thread, at 140deg, don't be afraid to dump some serious hops into the hop stand.
- A yeast with a 75-80% attenuation BUT properly pitching the right amount of yeast. I also think this is key to leaving behind that smooth flavor that has the "juicy" texture to it. I have been using Conan pitched from dregs of HT and its landing with at about 75-77% attenuation with good results. I am doing what many of the others are doing on this thread with this yeast and fermenting at 65-68deg for a few days and raising the ambient temp up to 75 to finish it out. I rack the beer out of the fermenter at 2 weeks on the nose into the keg for dry hopping.
- Dry hopping in the keg and then jumping the beer to a clean CO2 purged keg before final carbing/chilling/serving. Again, this gives it that aroma without the hop clumps and with no oxygen being introduced during xfer, that aroma sticks around a bit longer I have noticed.
I am still not 100% there but with what I have been getting of late following these steps, its getting closer to what I want my IPAs and PAs to ultimately be and the folks who have been long time drinkers of my IPAs/PAs have noticed they have tasted much cleaner and juicer without that harsh bite which is a good thing.
Just sharing some of my results from my last few batches.
:rockin:
Are you cold crashing before dry hopping?
No cold crashing of late for me with using Conan on these batches. I may give this a try though to clear it up a tad before dry hopping as I am thinking the haze from the HFS beers are almost exclusively due to the dryhops, not so much the yeast still being in suspension as my beers are much more hazy using Conan than HFS beers are but the mouthfeel/head-lacing and creamyness is very close.
Maybe a small cold crash time before racking would help? Dunno.
HToppers cloudyness/orange juice consistency on the other hand is definitely due to the Conan yeast still being heavy in suspension along with late dry hops.
The next phase of testing for me is to run a set of small batch PAs/IPAs with this same methodology with a few different english yeasts for a side by side comparison on these same batches.
Using Conan is working really well, but want to see what I get trying some different english yeasts as I do believe HFS is using an english strain in his IPA/PAs and porters (and I do not believe its 1318). Just my opinion so I want to run some smaller batches and pitch some different yeast to see what I get.
Time is my worst enemy of late as work has been kicking my ass, but I have some time off coming up around Christmas and I may just set 2 days aside to run some of the batches for the english yeast testing.
Will update here what the results are.
I have been cold crashing mine at the conclusion of primary fermentation. I put first dry hop into primary fermenter around day 5-7 range. Around day 12 I put the fermenter in chest freezer for 2 days at 33. Then I transfer to dry hopping keg for second dry hopping. I do like the results better of dropping the yeast out before second dry hop.
Thanks to both of you. Speaking of English yeasts, has anyone tried wyeast 1469 in their IPA's? Attenuation is low and it can get bit estery but I do happen to have some on hand.
I have had trouble getting away from conan too....... It just produces such a damn good APA/IPA. I end up harvesting so much of it, and using it in everything. Just can't quite bring myself to start using 1318 or other yeasts when I am so happy with Conan.
I have used 1469 in milds and bitters quite a bit and really like it. It can throw some weird flavors up around 70 degrees + though in my experience. I suppose if you dialed in the proper schedule it could be decent.
On the cold crashing, does it clean up the Conan pretty well suspension wise for those 2 days? I have to believe it does not clear it all the way up but it could be enough to get the "orange juice" look of the beer knocked out a tad if you know what I mean when using Conan..lol
I have never really cared what I beer looks like in the glass as long as it tastes great, but some of the folks I give my beer to would probably want it to look a little "cleaner"...
:fro:
I have not..I have used 1318 and I did not like it as much as what I get from Conan. With the bounty of english ale yeasts out there however, I want to do more testing with a few of them.
The ones I am interested in trying are WLP023, WY1099, WY1098 for my next english strain experimental batches.
Yeah.... I generally don't care about the look either. In fact, almost every one of my favorite IPA's tends to be moderately to quite hazy. That said, I feel like the hop flavors come through better with most of the yeast knocked out before I do my second dry hop. I did 2-3 batches where I put the fermenter in the freezer at 33 for a day, added gelatin for 2 days and then transferred to dry hopping keg. These beers were very clear going into the dry hopping keg, and somewhat hazy coming out...... from the hop oils I assume in the last dry hopping.
Then I was in a hurry on a batch and did not want to mess with the gelatin..... so the fermenter was just in the freezer for 2 days. The beer was not "brilliantly clear"...... but it was pretty clear coming out of the fermenter into the dry hopping keg with just the cold crash.... so, that is what I have been doing since. I would describe my beers as a "hazy clear" with this process. They tend to move toward "clear" after being on tap for a week or two.
I have a beer That will be cold crashed in a few days..... I will try to post up some pics after primary, after cold crash, etc.
For me.... all about flavor, and I feel I am getting brighter hop flavor dropping the yeast out. This one is a Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy - on tap for about 10-12 days or so I would guess.
Agreed..this is why I am thinking alot if not all of the HFS "hazyness" in their beers is due completely to the hop haze, not any yeast in suspension with their PAs/IPAs..
That being said, I think I am going to cold crash my next batches for a few days with Conan and any english strains I get time to test for taste impact as well.
Thanks much!
Similar threads
