Made a 1.075 IPA with 5% crystal, 10% wheat, non-flocculating yeast and damn i think it will look pretty ugly in the glass, i think only light yellow beers look pretty when murky. I am thinking about gelatin fining but i wonder what will happen to the mouthfeel.
Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?
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So to translate; hop haze is, in fact, due to polyphenols binding with tannins and proteins and not due to excessive hop oils? AND this binding (read: haze) can actually detract from the overall hop oil impact?
Leeds1
Well-Known Member
Brewed this Thursday the 24th.
10lbs. Superior Pale Ale Malt
1.75lbs Flaked Oats
Wyeast 1318
OG 1.049
1oz Magnum FWH
1oz each of Simcoe, Mosiac and Citra Hopstand at 170 for 30 minutes.
Used distilled water and added salts back to it for:
Calcium-87
Magnesium-8
Sodium-43
Sulfate-68
Chloride-128
Bicarbonate-115
This thing took off like a rocket and blew the stopper before I got a chance to put a blowoff tube on it. I've never had a beer start this fast.
3 days fermentation at 62F then moved to 70 and added another oz each of Simcoe, Mosiac and Citra while primary is still active. Hoping to move this to a keg by Thursday/Friday and will keg hop with 1oz of Mosiac and 2oz. of Citra. This is the first time I've ever played with water chemistry and I'm hoping this thing turns out awesome, I know it smells good right now.
10lbs. Superior Pale Ale Malt
1.75lbs Flaked Oats
Wyeast 1318
OG 1.049
1oz Magnum FWH
1oz each of Simcoe, Mosiac and Citra Hopstand at 170 for 30 minutes.
Used distilled water and added salts back to it for:
Calcium-87
Magnesium-8
Sodium-43
Sulfate-68
Chloride-128
Bicarbonate-115
This thing took off like a rocket and blew the stopper before I got a chance to put a blowoff tube on it. I've never had a beer start this fast.
3 days fermentation at 62F then moved to 70 and added another oz each of Simcoe, Mosiac and Citra while primary is still active. Hoping to move this to a keg by Thursday/Friday and will keg hop with 1oz of Mosiac and 2oz. of Citra. This is the first time I've ever played with water chemistry and I'm hoping this thing turns out awesome, I know it smells good right now.
Yes, that is my take on it, but not everyone agrees (last sentence of study). http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2010.tb00788.x/pdf
Gerry_P
Well-Known Member
I didn't have time to read this whole thread so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant, but has anybody suggested dextrine malt/carapils for mouthfeel?
Found little to no mention so I brought it up, but got no comments IIRC.
I definetly find it adds and use it in most of my brews. Better head, better mouthfeel, etc.
Not the deciding factor, but a good contribution and I recon part of the puzzle.
For pale/hoppy beers I usually try to keep the sodium and bicarbonate as low as possible. I've got ~100 PPM of carbonate in my water and I dilute 50% with distilled to lower it. I'd get it to zero if I wasn't too lazy to buy 18 gallons of distilled for a batch. Sodium tends to clash with sulfate at high levels, not that you have a huge amount of either. Out of curiosity, why add those salts?
Gerry_P
Well-Known Member
Yep. Used in proper amounts, say 5% or so, it improves those things without adding any other grain flavors, which might make it a better choice than, say, oats in certain beers. I don't know how I missed it, but OP says he tried c-pils which I assume is carapils. OP, how much did you use in your recipe?
It was brought up in the earlier posts (by others, including me, specifically). Using dextrin malt is a method that could possibly be used to emulate the silky mouthfeel of Hill Farmstead, but it is speculated that this is not the primary means they use to achieve it.
Regardless, I have experienced great mouthfeel enhancement with 10-15% flaked oats, but still lacking that signature HF feel.
Leeds1
Well-Known Member
I saw the post below earlier in the thread and just decided to try to get close to that, I know my Na is a little higher than the quoted level.
This is the first time that I've ever played with water chemistry at all, but after having some Tree House/Trillium/Tired Hands IPAs I just had to see if I could brew something close. The good thing is that this is a base to go off of and can tweak future 'northeast' IPAs now that I have a better understanding of water chemistry. Were you happy with the early, still actively fermenting, dry hop addition to the Northeast IPA that you made?
Yes - this has become my basic "go-to" 5.5% type APA/IPA. Really, i keep the water the same now in all of them. Grain bill stays pretty standard. Hopping schedule is standard - although I vary the types of hops from batch to batch.
One thing I am trying for the first time with a batch right now, is this:
Added my first dry hops at Day 6 (like normal) to the primary. Day 10-12 I am going to cold crash the primary and add gelatin to it to drop everything out that I can (yeast in particular). I am the going to transfer (the hopefully clear) beer to my secondary/dry hopping keg with the second dry hop for 2-3 days and transfer to the serving keg.
Just curious if I will still get the hazy, full mouth feel, etc dropping the yeast out.
Probably start the cold crash tomorrow night.
** I use lactic acid to offset the bicarbonate and get mash ph in the 5.45 range. I don't know why, but my beers just seem better when I don't use 100% RO water. I know it runs counter to most of what I read about eliminating the bicarbonate entirely...... but, for whatever reason, I like the beers better where I only use 60% RO and use lactic to get mash pH lined up.
Leeds1
Well-Known Member
I did add another 3oz of hops 72hrs into fermentation, the airlock smells wonderful right now. I'm going to give it a few more days and then cool it back down to 65F before transferring to a keg where it will get another 3oz of hops. I also used some lactic acid to help get the mash pH down to 5.4. Bru'n Water is pretty nifty once I understood how to use it.
irishrover32
Well-Known Member
im planning on trying something similiar however i have not had good results cold crashing after dry hopping in primary i think its to do with leaving the hops in them extra 2 days which gives me a lot of grassyness ( i use a lot of hops so anything more than 5 days is negative). so for my next brew ill dry hop on day 5 of primary, then transfer with a mesh bag over my racking cane to a keg to keep hops out, then add another dry hop in the keg for 5 days, then remove the dry hop bag from keg and cold crash with gelatin, leave it 3 days and then trasfer to a serving keg. that way i have full temp control over the dry hops and how long they stay in
I am firmly in the 4-5 days dryhop camp but on my last brew which was inspired by this thread i left my dryhops (2013 Nelson Sauvin) in one of the fermenters for 3 weeks @ 70F before kegging and it had zero grassiness.
I dunno what happened there, will stick to the usual 4-5 days.
irishrover32
Well-Known Member
I think sometimes it can come down to the variety used. What did you dry hop with?
Nelson Sauvin from the 2013 harvest
hopsandhops
Well-Known Member
I've been dry hopping longer the last few brews because of adding them on day 4-5 and 1318 taking so long and I haven't experienced anything negative. I've had great aroma with relatively small dry hops and I've been wondering if it's the longer contact or the adding during active ferment to scrub o2
Finally got word from Omnipollo (they were busy with beer festivals and such). BBF on that one is 1 year from bottling. So how impressive was that for a 1 year old IPA?^^
BreezyBrew
IPA is my spirit animal
I found this comment interesting. So you are saying in the literature, eliminating the bicarb entirely has a positive effect on taste?
I'm brewing a fairly straight ahead APA this weekend. I have been playing around in Bru'n water and seeing how your numbers work with straight RO. Since my experience with even 15% of my tap water, the hops came out harsh, I have gone RO.
I'm finding with the Ca, SO4, and Cl in your range, the estimated mash pH ends up being around 5.6. I can bring the pH down to a good level, but that virtually eliminates the Bicarbonate. I'm unclear if it helps or hurts the final taste in the beer.
I use lactic acid to get my pH in line (5.35-5.45).
In regard to bicarbonate...... I have never read anywhere, by anyone that leaving alkalinity in the water is desirable in any way (for an IPA/APA). EVERYTHING I have read suggests 40 or below...... and, if you are diluting with RO..... just go all RO and eliminate any bicarbonate at all.
That said....... I have really liked my beers with 60-80% RO and 20-40% filtered tap water (my tap water is about 270 bicarbonate). That definitely goes against conventional wisdom and what I have read. I will likely do some "head to head" beers in the winter with 100% RO vs. 60-80% RO with the same recipe, process to revisit this.
Make sure any tap water you use is filtered or you account for chlorine/chloramine that is in it..... that will ruin an IPA in a hurry.
Sadly my last IPA was soured by the phosporic acid. (~350 hco3, 5.2 mash ph) It needed too much acid, the mash water tasted like lemons. (I also added that much acid to the sparge water, my reasoning behind that was I thought that my post-boil ph would creep up too much if I would dump in a lot of that alkaline water into the boil)
It seems like i need to boil my water before brewing. I wish i could calculate somehow how much Ca i need to put in my water to get most of the alkalinity out.
It seems like i need to boil my water before brewing. I wish i could calculate somehow how much Ca i need to put in my water to get most of the alkalinity out.
bierhaus15
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Figured I'd post the results of the HF Edward and water sample I analyzed a while ago.
Basically, their water is hard-ish. Estimated ALK is around 150ppm. This is within range of what I have heard from others, including an interview somewhere which had it around 140ppm. Granted, don't know if they treat this with acid or just salts.
As for pH, came out to 4.48 and suspended yeast was very high - I didn't both counting the cells, since there were so many - accounting for that nice cloudy appearance. Hop oils were overall quite moderate via GCMS, with notable myrcene and caryophellene concentrations, which correlate with the green/grassy character of the beer. IBU was high 40's. Didn't do HPLC, but obviously there is some big polyphenols in the beer. Sorta bitter, grassy, not a great defined hop character. Bit muddled.
Still had an airy mouthfeel.
Basically, their water is hard-ish. Estimated ALK is around 150ppm. This is within range of what I have heard from others, including an interview somewhere which had it around 140ppm. Granted, don't know if they treat this with acid or just salts.
As for pH, came out to 4.48 and suspended yeast was very high - I didn't both counting the cells, since there were so many - accounting for that nice cloudy appearance. Hop oils were overall quite moderate via GCMS, with notable myrcene and caryophellene concentrations, which correlate with the green/grassy character of the beer. IBU was high 40's. Didn't do HPLC, but obviously there is some big polyphenols in the beer. Sorta bitter, grassy, not a great defined hop character. Bit muddled.
Still had an airy mouthfeel.
Where did you have that analyzed? And for how much?
I have some HF and other commercial beers I'd like to send out for analysis too if the price is right
Leeds1
Well-Known Member
.
Double post.
Double post.
Leeds1
Well-Known Member
This beer just 2nd in a local home brew fest competition. It's hazy, but not murky, soft and just damn good for a low alcohol IPA. Easily the best beer I've ever made and I can't wait to tweak this recipe even more.
congrats! what competition?
mosaicbrewer
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Also wondering what category, and congrats, always feels good when you get positive feedback like that
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime
Although boiling and lime (best) works, I think they are a PITA. I would just cut 3:1 (distilled:tap) with distilled or even just build from 100% distilled > KISS. You need to be under 120ppm HCO3 to keep flavor contribution of acids to a minimum (Noonan)
Sadly i have never seen RO or distilled water around these parts in europe sold in big quantities. (i could get distilled in pharmacies for like 15$ per gallon but that is too expensive) (also RO machines are almost unheard here, i am jelly in so many ways of you US guys)
On the other hand this lime method looks pretty good. I am planning a brewday on the weekend, should i try this alkalinity reduction method with heat (boiling) instead of lime until i can get food grade lime?
Does the CaCl or CaSO4 into water to get enough calcium ---> 10 minute boil ---> 1 day settling time ---> racking from the top method works?
The lime method looks much cheaper and easier but pickling lime is quite rare here and i only found chemistry shops selling it.
At pH 5.4, > 95% of any bicarbonate present has been converted to H2CO3, which in turn is in a dynamic equilibrium with dissolved CO2(g). So chemically, the end result is essentially identical whether you start with 100% RO or a blend of RO and tap water.
Whatever difference in taste you perceive, it is not due to the presence of bicarbonate.
Sorry glue, didn't know... Lime is the way to go, even if it's pricey as a little goes a long way. Your strategy for boiling looks sounds but the actual reaction is not perfect. How hard/long to boil, reaction requires CO2, etc. Yes, the Ca salts should easily dissolve and help the reaction. I only tried lime and even that was "fun". Some more info: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5792.0
rideincircles
Well-Known Member
Subscribing. My initial take on reading this thread would be to use some cultured HF yeast and see what can be duplicated, and how it differs in comparison to 1318 in a side by side batch.
I would do that if I could, but HF is a little too far of a drive from Texas. Even if I stayed with my brother in DC, it would still be a 9 hour drive. I don't see any chance of making it up there anytime soon.
Aside from that, I am just starting on adjusting my water profiles and plan on a 10 gallon batch of a heady clone next so I have been taking a lot of notes to upgrade my brewing processes for this one. I will probably knock out a porter after that and plan on trying 1450. I used that once way back, but have much more knowledge and better processes now.
If there was a TL
R for this thread, what would be the best summary? 2:1 chloride to sulfate ratio works well, 1318 is close but not exact to the HF yeast, mouthfeel is the main goal with these hoppy beers with lots of hops around 170 degree hop stand.
I will come back to this thread for my next IPA, but I think I need to dive back into the Heady discussion otherwise its an information overload since water chemistry is new to me. I will be kegging an extract 20 minute APA tonight that I am using Conan yeast on and it had a 30 minute hop stand. My last version of it got me 1st at bluebonnet out of 42 pale ales, but I continue tinkering with it and want to see how it differs with those changes. I plan on going all grain in my next few batches, it was just the easy option to brew after Burning Man.
Keep at it.
I would do that if I could, but HF is a little too far of a drive from Texas. Even if I stayed with my brother in DC, it would still be a 9 hour drive. I don't see any chance of making it up there anytime soon.
Aside from that, I am just starting on adjusting my water profiles and plan on a 10 gallon batch of a heady clone next so I have been taking a lot of notes to upgrade my brewing processes for this one. I will probably knock out a porter after that and plan on trying 1450. I used that once way back, but have much more knowledge and better processes now.
If there was a TL
R for this thread, what would be the best summary? 2:1 chloride to sulfate ratio works well, 1318 is close but not exact to the HF yeast, mouthfeel is the main goal with these hoppy beers with lots of hops around 170 degree hop stand. I will come back to this thread for my next IPA, but I think I need to dive back into the Heady discussion otherwise its an information overload since water chemistry is new to me. I will be kegging an extract 20 minute APA tonight that I am using Conan yeast on and it had a 30 minute hop stand. My last version of it got me 1st at bluebonnet out of 42 pale ales, but I continue tinkering with it and want to see how it differs with those changes. I plan on going all grain in my next few batches, it was just the easy option to brew after Burning Man.
Keep at it.
Colbizle
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Subscribing. My initial take on reading this thread would be to use some cultured HF yeast and see what can be duplicated, and how it differs in comparison to 1318 in a side by side batch.
I would do that if I could, but HF is a little too far of a drive from Texas. Even if I stayed with my brother in DC, it would still be a 9 hour drive. I don't see any chance of making it up there anytime soon.
Aside from that, I am just starting on adjusting my water profiles and plan on a 10 gallon batch of a heady clone next so I have been taking a lot of notes to upgrade my brewing processes for this one. I will probably knock out a porter after that and plan on trying 1450. I used that once way back, but have much more knowledge and better processes now.
If there was a TL
I will come back to this thread for my next IPA, but I think I need to dive back into the Heady discussion otherwise its an information overload since water chemistry is new to me. I will be kegging an extract 20 minute APA tonight that I am using Conan yeast on and it had a 30 minute hop stand. My last version of it got me 1st at bluebonnet out of 42 pale ales, but I continue tinkering with it and want to see how it differs with those changes. I plan on going all grain in my next few batches, it was just the easy option to brew after Burning Man.
Keep at it.
Most commercial brewers (I'd wager 5BBL and up) can't do hopstands below 200F.
CL/S04 ratios are IMO crap since 200:100 SO4:CL would not taste the same as 20:10.
Not sure if 1318 being the answer but could be close? Pulling dregs is tough since the yeast are sometimes stressed and could be mutated by the time you harvest/populate them. He may be using his own mutated version at this point. Who knows?!
Can you elaborate on that? I have no experience with commercial systems, but I'm curious.
Colbizle
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Ya for sure. My friend owns a brewery in southern minnesota and I go down there and help when I can. At the commercial level the mass size of the kettle and immense surface area of the wort doesn't allow the wort to cool down much less than a few degrees once they kill the flame or steam. So for example, on his system after the boil is over, we cut the flame, toss in the whirlpool addition hops and then we use a big mash paddle to get the whirlpool going. He also has a pump that aids the whirlpool as well. We whirlpool for about 15 minutes so we can get a nice tight trub cone in the middle of the kettle. Then after the whirlpool is over we let the wort rest for about 20-25 minutes to settle everything out. By this time the kettle is still reading about 211-210F. Then after the rest we proceed to "knock out", so we hook up the heat exchanger and start pumping the wort through it which has a backflow and oxygen stone hooked up to it. It takes him up to 2 full hours to completely knock out and by the end of the knock out the remaining wort in the kettle is still above 200F. After that we hookup a corny filled with fresh yeasties and pump that into the tank and then start cleaning. OMG there's so much cleaning haha.
But one could ask, why not just run the wort through the heat exchanger after knock out and then do the whirlpool (you know like us homebrewers can do)?. Well for one, you do not want to risk clogging the heat exchanger, it has a sh*t load of plates and if you clog that sob you'll spend the next 2-3 hours taking it apart and cleaning every plate and putting it back together all the while your precious wort is sitting above 200F. So I'd assume most other commerical breweries forgo that and just do a big whirpool addition and/or use a hopback as well.
But every brewery's operations are slightly different and this is just the way my friend's brewery does it.
Hope that helps.
Hey, thanks! I guess with that equipment it's not possible, but what if you had just one more vessel? Knock out directly to the other vessel but only slightly cool the wort to 140 or 150, or whatever you're going for, and then do your hop stand. After the hop stand, make one more pass through the chiller on the way to the fermentation vessel. It seems doable if you have another vessel, I would think.
mbbransc
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure HF pasteurizes and rep itches bottling yeast. Don't think you can harvest from their bottles. At least not current bottles.
brewski09
Well-Known Member
I think what people are referring to is Shaun's hoppy beers, which are not bottled, and use a regular sacch strain. Making it difficult because of how little yeast you could harvest from a growler. Shaun only bottles his Saison/Farmhouse Ales, and the occasional Porter or Imperial Stout.
If I remember correctly he said they used have the same microbes in the bottled Farnhouse beers that were from fermentation/souring, but a while back switched to something else for carbonation/conditioning.
Never heard of them pasteurizing before re-pitching, and I have my doubts, but it could be possible.
mikeroesoft
Well-Known Member
The closest I've come to an HF beer wrt flavor, color and mouthfeel is this...
Mash at 158F for 60mins raise quickly to 168F and hold for 10-15 mins
Target OG = 1.053 - FG 1.013
6.5 gallons - efficiency is unknown - 60 min boil
86% Fawcett Pearl
10% Weyermann Carafoam
4% Weyermann Munich (next time I will try C10 as I think it will be closer to the real deal)
0.1oz Galaxy 14.8%aa @FWH
0.1oz Galaxy @60mins
Whirlfloc and servomyces @ 15mins
5oz of Galaxy @FO, lid on, hold 10 mins begin cooling. Took 35 more mins to get to pitching temp with IC in August when tap water was 69F
rehydrated US05
Ferment at 64F for 14 days
3.5oz Galaxy at dry hop - *key* Transfer from primary to purged dry hop keg via auto-siphon into 'beverage out' post. Fill slowly from the bottom up. (See Bear-Flavored DH keg contraption). DH under 30psi of pressure for 5 days. Transfer by pushing beer with CO2 via the 'out' post of DH keg into 'out' post of purged serving keg. Force carb.
Water profile
Ca=65ppm
Mg=10ppm
Na=45ppm
Cl=90ppm
SO4=130ppm
mash pH 5.29 @ room temp.
The color and aroma of this beer was very much in line with HF style pale ale. The mouthfeel requires a little tweaking but is pretty close. Next I will try C10 instead of munich. If that doesn't do it, then I will start reducing the SO4 and increasing the Cl but need to keep Ca very close for pH purposes. For salts, I find less is more when making a delicate beer. I have learned that the hard way.
For the record I have tried high chloride and didn't care for it. I have also tried 1318, Conan and WLP007. US05, with the method I described above gave me good results.
Mash at 158F for 60mins raise quickly to 168F and hold for 10-15 mins
Target OG = 1.053 - FG 1.013
6.5 gallons - efficiency is unknown - 60 min boil
86% Fawcett Pearl
10% Weyermann Carafoam
4% Weyermann Munich (next time I will try C10 as I think it will be closer to the real deal)
0.1oz Galaxy 14.8%aa @FWH
0.1oz Galaxy @60mins
Whirlfloc and servomyces @ 15mins
5oz of Galaxy @FO, lid on, hold 10 mins begin cooling. Took 35 more mins to get to pitching temp with IC in August when tap water was 69F
rehydrated US05
Ferment at 64F for 14 days
3.5oz Galaxy at dry hop - *key* Transfer from primary to purged dry hop keg via auto-siphon into 'beverage out' post. Fill slowly from the bottom up. (See Bear-Flavored DH keg contraption). DH under 30psi of pressure for 5 days. Transfer by pushing beer with CO2 via the 'out' post of DH keg into 'out' post of purged serving keg. Force carb.
Water profile
Ca=65ppm
Mg=10ppm
Na=45ppm
Cl=90ppm
SO4=130ppm
mash pH 5.29 @ room temp.
The color and aroma of this beer was very much in line with HF style pale ale. The mouthfeel requires a little tweaking but is pretty close. Next I will try C10 instead of munich. If that doesn't do it, then I will start reducing the SO4 and increasing the Cl but need to keep Ca very close for pH purposes. For salts, I find less is more when making a delicate beer. I have learned that the hard way.
For the record I have tried high chloride and didn't care for it. I have also tried 1318, Conan and WLP007. US05, with the method I described above gave me good results.
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