Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[ejf063]

I kinda like the idea of lowering the gypsum level even further than the approximate 60-70pmm I had used previously. I agree that if you have a good beer to start with then it would still be good. The lack or even increase of the salts would change only the outcome of the beer, not the foundation.

I guess what I may do is a 3:1 Chloride to Sulfate ratio to see how that changes the outcome. I may also reduce my set-it-and-forget-it co2 output on the kegs to see if that minimize the 'bite'. One can always add gypsum to the finished beer if it lacks all sorts of bitterness, but its hard to get it to dissolve without a good mixing.

Anyway, I just got a Brew Easy, so I need to put that together before I try anything new. In the meantime, if someone has tried the reduction of gypsum like described (3:1), I would love to know the outcome. If someone following this thread is brewing this weekend and wants to attempt this reduction, again, I would love to know how it turned out and what the procedure was.

 

[lilbova3]

I had this scientific experimental idea tonight, but I do know its been done before, to try a homebrew of mine with some additional CaCl added to the finished brew to see what would happen to it. After reading all this info about higher chlorides thanks to yalls experimenting I was hoping this stout, that didnt come out as creamy and have a full mouthfeel, would come out that way.

I compared it to the same stout without any additional CaCl and i have to say the one with the addition definitely seemed fuller, creamier and had better mouthfeel. I thought about trying it with a commercially made IPA but didn't get to it.

So thanks to all of your experimenting I would think this creamy, pillowy mouthfeel from additional Cl would be similar through all styles.

 

[g-star]

Fiddling with the Cl-/SO42- levels wihin +/- 50ppm is not going to change the beer that much. Remember the finished beer will have several hundred ppm chloride and sulfate contributed from the grain alone. I'd love to see a statistically significant difference in a triangle test of beers with 300 vs. 350ppm SO42-. Highly unlikely.

A more fruitful approach would be to dial back 60min bittering additions and moving towards getting more bitterness out of late additions - aka hop bursting. This is well-known to produce a "softer" bitterness.

 

[ejf063]

A more fruitful approach would be to dial back 60min bittering additions and moving towards getting more bitterness out of late additions - aka hop bursting. This is well-known to produce a "softer" bitterness.

Agreed. I have already eliminated any hop additions prior to the 20 minute mark. My last 4 or 5 batches have all been the result of hop bursting and I doubt I will ever go back.

 

[TxBigHops]

You could use a stainless mesh filter/tube (or stainless mesh sleeve of some sort). Dry hop in your fermenter. Then when it is time to rack, put this tube (sanitized) into your carboy, insert your racking cane and it should rack clean beer, leaving hops behind for the most part. Basically what I sort of do by using a dry hopping keg with a stainless mesh screen over the dip tube.....
Utah Biodiesel has all kinds of various screens and filters for brewing. This is the one that looks like it might work best for what you are talking about.
https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/images/customfabrication/BetterBottle6.5galB.jpg

I own this exact screen from Utah Biodiesel. I would not personally recommend it. My first use, I planned to do a two stage dry hop. After stage one (3-4 days) I pulled it out and planned to quickly remove the hops, re-sanitize, then refill with the second stage. But the darn hops would not come out. I even went out to the yard and tried to get them out with the garden hose and a jet nozzle. No luck. Brought it back in, re-sanitized the whole thing (hops and all) and dropped in the second stage on top of the old first stage hops.

After that brew was completed, I have spent many hours using every method I can think of (oxy-clean, boiling water, digging with long skinny tools) and nothing will remove those hops. I bet I have spent close to 20 hours trying to clean that thing. Eventually I emailed with Utah Biodiesel. They could provide me with no assistance to clean my screen, and the best they would offer me was a 50% refund, if I sent the original back to them, which net of postage would have yielded me about 3 bucks.

One of these days I'm going to figure out a way to clean that puppy out. I may use it as a filter screen, but I will NEVER again dry hop with it!

 

[Kiichi]

In terms of softer bitterness I will try hop bursting some day even though I don´t feel the need for it in my brews. I recon it is down to the bittering hops I use. It seems to be consensus that different hops give different bitterness feels and I am always using Polaris. 20% Alpha beast delivering smooth bitterness. Makes 80 IBU feel like 40. Effective too cause you need so little.

Things like CCT however have given me really harsh, unpleasent bitterness. So´d look into that too.

 

[Braufessor]

I own this exact screen from Utah Biodiesel. I would not personally recommend it. My first use, I planned to do a two stage dry hop. After stage one (3-4 days) I pulled it out and planned to quickly remove the hops, re-sanitize, then refill with the second stage. But the darn hops would not come out. I even went out to the yard and tried to get them out with the garden hose and a jet nozzle. No luck. Brought it back in, re-sanitized the whole thing (hops and all) and dropped in the second stage on top of the old first stage hops.

After that brew was completed, I have spent many hours using every method I can think of (oxy-clean, boiling water, digging with long skinny tools) and nothing will remove those hops. I bet I have spent close to 20 hours trying to clean that thing. Eventually I emailed with Utah Biodiesel. They could provide me with no assistance to clean my screen, and the best they would offer me was a 50% refund, if I sent the original back to them, which net of postage would have yielded me about 3 bucks.

One of these days I'm going to figure out a way to clean that puppy out. I may use it as a filter screen, but I will NEVER again dry hop with it!

Yeah - i would not recommend putting hops in it. I was thinking you could throw the hops in the carboy lose. Then use that screen as sort of a mesh sleeve over an auto siphon when it came time to rack off. I have one of the shorter, bigger dry hopping tubes for dry hopping in a keg...... I found the same as you - even though it is good size, the hops really pack together in the tube. I only use it now as a means of putting it over a dip tube with the hops outside the screen.

Even something like a stainless steel braid ...... basically anything you can use over the end of a siphon to keep the free floating hops away from getting transferred over.

 

[TxBigHops]

Yeah - i would not recommend putting hops in it. I was thinking you could throw the hops in the carboy lose. Then use that screen as sort of a mesh sleeve over an auto siphon when it came time to rack off. I have one of the shorter, bigger dry hopping tubes for dry hopping in a keg...... I found the same as you - even though it is good size, the hops really pack together in the tube. I only use it now as a means of putting it over a dip tube with the hops outside the screen.

Even something like a stainless steel braid ...... basically anything you can use over the end of a siphon to keep the free floating hops away from getting transferred over.

Ahhhh... I see now what you are saying. I ought to try reading before I comment - Ha! Use the screen inside the carboy at racking time. Genius! I also have a larger mesh bucket (4 x 10, I think) with hooks that I can hang into my bottling bucket. But I don't put my outlet tubing into that until the beer level has risen above the bottom of the screen so as not to aerate. If I ever get the smaller one cleaned, I'll definitely try your trick. I like it!

 

[geoffey]

I own this exact screen from Utah Biodiesel. I would not personally recommend it. My first use, I planned to do a two stage dry hop. After stage one (3-4 days) I pulled it out and planned to quickly remove the hops, re-sanitize, then refill with the second stage. But the darn hops would not come out. I even went out to the yard and tried to get them out with the garden hose and a jet nozzle. No luck. Brought it back in, re-sanitized the whole thing (hops and all) and dropped in the second stage on top of the old first stage hops.



After that brew was completed, I have spent many hours using every method I can think of (oxy-clean, boiling water, digging with long skinny tools) and nothing will remove those hops. I bet I have spent close to 20 hours trying to clean that thing. Eventually I emailed with Utah Biodiesel. They could provide me with no assistance to clean my screen, and the best they would offer me was a 50% refund, if I sent the original back to them, which net of postage would have yielded me about 3 bucks.



One of these days I'm going to figure out a way to clean that puppy out. I may use it as a filter screen, but I will NEVER again dry hop with it!

I have several of their products and have never had an issue cleaning them. In fact, earlier tonight I finished a long PBW soak of the screen I use in my kettle for hops. I have one of their keg dry hoppers as well and have never had any issues with cleaning it. But it's a bit wider than the one made for carboys.

But as Braufessor mentioned, use it the other way (if you can get it clean) and I bet you'll be happy. You just can't get enough hops into that filter to make any nice big hoppy IPA. I bet more than an ounce or so would expand and clog that thing up.

 

[gometz]

Okay, so I have completed a few batches using the higher Chloride to Sulfate ratio (2:1, I tired to replicate Braufessor's 'water model') and I have noticed a marked difference in the feel of the beer. I use distilled water and add salts and acids in an effort to gain as much flavor, silkiness, pillowy, etc., mouthfeel as I can. The bitterness still seems to have a little bite to it. I just recently had a Zombie Dust, whose IBU is 50. In the last 3 beers I did, I have been shooting for them to have an IBU of 50 as well. Mine seem to bitter a bit more..... firm.
What would happen say, if gypsum was cut out of the salt addition altogether? Has anyone done this? Gypsum 'enhances' bitterness... it doesn't create it. the carbonation adds a bite which adds to the bitterness effect so maybe it would balance an otherwise cloying effect.
Curios to know what people think of this.
Thanks.

On a recent Yellow Rose inspired single hop IPA (Nelson Sauvin, half the batch was also fermented using 3711), I used a "malty" water profile. The sample tastes very smooth, which is what you might be looking for. I also used only pilsner and acidulated malt with about 5% Belgian sugar.

 

[ejf063]

On a recent Yellow Rose inspired single hop IPA (Nelson Sauvin, half the batch was also fermented using 3711), I used a "malty" water profile. The sample tastes very smooth, which is what you might be looking for. I also used only pilsner and acidulated malt with about 5% Belgian sugar.

How did the Nelson turn out? Was the hop profile muted and tamed? Or flavorful? If I am reading this correctly my guess is that you have not carbed it yet. What was the other yeast strain? I would be curios to know the difference in the feel, et. al. between the two batches.

 

[gometz]

How did the Nelson turn out? Was the hop profile muted and tamed? Or flavorful? If I am reading this correctly my guess is that you have not carbed it yet. What was the other yeast strain? I would be curios to know the difference in the feel, et. al. between the two batches.

I bottled Friday, so I might sneak a bottle of each this Sunday. Half was fermented using WLP001, the other half 3711. The said In tasted a little hot when bottling (about 8%), but I'll report back on the experiment.

 

[gometz]

Oh and the hop schedule was first wort and then nothing before 15 minutes. Half a pound for 8 gallons of wort.

 

[gometz]

How did the Nelson turn out? Was the hop profile muted and tamed? Or flavorful? If I am reading this correctly my guess is that you have not carbed it yet. What was the other yeast strain? I would be curios to know the difference in the feel, et. al. between the two batches.

Just cracked the first bottle of the IPA. Comparing it to Yellow Rose I think I got it 95% right. My ABV is a bit higher (FG ended up at 1.009 somehow with WLP001), but it is a nice round flavor. I will try to do a side by side of the IPA and the saison tonight.

 

[ejf063]

Just cracked the first bottle of the IPA. Comparing it to Yellow Rose I think I got it 95% right. My ABV is a bit higher (FG ended up at 1.009 somehow with WLP001), but it is a nice round flavor. I will try to do a side by side of the IPA and the saison tonight.

Sweet. Did you build up your water, or know the water profile?

 

[gometz]

Sweet. Did you build up your water, or know the water profile?

I build my water, I'll have to look at my spreadsheets when I get home. The big Notre I took away was that I need to add more hops. I'm thinking for my azacca and chinook single hop IPA's I'll use 8 oz for 5 gallons (3 oz dry hop).

 

[gometz]

Sweet. Did you build up your water, or know the water profile?

Started with RO water and used the following targets:
(Essentially the "Light Colored and Malty" and "Light Colored and Hoppy" profiles combined from Brewer's Friend)
Ca(+2) 75 ppm
Mg(+2) 5 ppm
SO4(-2) 100 ppm
Na+ 10 ppm
Cl- 75 ppm
HCO3- 0 ppm

I added all of the minerals at 15 minutes left in the boil. I haven't started trying to manipulate my mashes with minerals yet.

EDIT: mixed up what profile it was.

 

[surgical_ass]

I have been honing a basic IPA/APA recipe down and am looking forward to getting it right where I want it and then experimenting with the water. I think the water is the key thing here that differentiates the "typical" east coast IPA and west coast IPA.

The grainbill I have been using is:
92% 2row
2% each of Wheat, Flaked oats, caramel 20 and Honey malt.
**I like the idea of golden naked oats and/or flaked barley too.

Generally, I have been using Conan yeast.

I have been using RO water and going 275 Sulfate and 30 Chloride. It makes a great beer. But, I have been able to sample a lot of the vermont beers, and it does not have that feel to it.

When I get my recipe right where I want it, I am going to brew 3 beers on the same weekend. All 3 exactly the same but with water differences:

Beer 1 - 275 sulfate/30 chloride
Beer 2 - 150 sulfate/150 chloride
Beer 3 - 30 sulfate/275 chloride

Just to see what the different extremes and middle ground do. If I was going to randomly guess at something and try one thing, that was different, I might go 100-125 sulfate and 175-200 chloride.

mash ph I would be shooting for that 5.3-5.4 range.

All RO water.

At any rate, I hope to find time for this experiment in the near future.

Did this ever happen? Didn't search through entire thread. Intrested in the different water ratios

 

[Braufessor]

Did this ever happen? Didn't search through entire thread. Intrested in the different water ratios

No.... have not gotten to those specific proportions. I have tried various levels of increasing and decreasing sulfate and chloride - but not the extremes. I may still revisit this. However, I have been changing and experimenting with my recipe and process over the past year..... which, I think I finally have about where I want it. In addition, along the way, I have found a ratio that I have been really happy with (sulfate 65, chloride 130) and have just kind of stuck with that for the most part.

Now that I think I have my basic recipe dialed in to what I like, I am hoping to get back to playing with the details of the water a bit more at some point.

 

[mtnagel]

Beer 1 - 275 sulfate/30 chloride
Beer 2 - 150 sulfate/150 chloride
Beer 3 - 30 sulfate/275 chloride

Just to let you know, you don't need to brew 3 beers. You could brew the high and the low and then blend them to get the mid beer.

In your example, you would blend 49% beer 1 and 51% beer 3 to make beer 2. Of course in reality, I would just do 50/50 and then you'd get 152.5 sulfate/152.5 chloride, which is close enough to 150. But then you could also do any level in between 30 and 275 with different blends. That would be a fun little experiment.

 

[surgical_ass]

No.... have not gotten to those specific proportions. I have tried various levels of increasing and decreasing sulfate and chloride - but not the extremes. I may still revisit this. However, I have been changing and experimenting with my recipe and process over the past year..... which, I think I finally have about where I want it. In addition, along the way, I have found a ratio that I have been really happy with (sulfate 65, chloride 130) and have just kind of stuck with that for the most part.

Now that I think I have my basic recipe dialed in to what I like, I am hoping to get back to playing with the details of the water a bit more at some point.

If you don't mind what is your recipe your speak of? I'm planning a brew this weekend for this style ipa. I'm at 83% golden promise 11% vienna 6% flaked wheat. This is my first attemp at this style so I am looking for all the recipes and advice I can get.

 

[Braufessor]

If you don't mind what is your recipe your speak of? I'm planning a brew this weekend for this style ipa. I'm at 83% golden promise 11% vienna 6% flaked wheat. This is my first attemp at this style so I am looking for all the recipes and advice I can get.

I have it posted in the recipe forum - here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

 

[yeastylad]

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

You might want to check this out.

 

[Kiichi]

Btw, has anyone tried the new Vermon Ale yeast yet? Going to brew with that Sunday, but I wondered if it is like Conan and how it compares to London III.

 

[olotti]

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

You might want to check this out.

Good read thanks for posting. Looks like one of the big contributors to this style is higher chloride over sulfate.

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Btw, has anyone tried the new Vermon Ale yeast yet? Going to brew with that Sunday, but I wondered if it is like Conan and how it compares to London III.

Came in to ask this.
I'm only on about page 15 of this thread, which has been very helpful. The Scott Janish link above is basically a condensed version of a lot of the same things.

Curious about people's preferred yeast when making these 'softer' NE IPAs...?
Vermont? Conan? London III? Dennys? 002?

Or do they all achieve similar effects?

I've used Wyeast London III on a single hop Azacca, and when it was 1-2 days old (post-carb) it was crazy Sunny-D-ish pineapple tropical juice bomb.
At about 1 week, it turned into thin, watery, with weird chemical/medicinal tastes to the point where I dumped it.
(That may have been something we did wrong, but it wasn't infected, I didn't have super high mineral additions, and the hops faded insanely quick. I'm not sure if that's due to Azacca just being one of 'those' hops that does that, or maybe we introduced too much O2)

 

[Braufessor]

Came in to ask this.


(That may have been something we did wrong, but it wasn't infected, I didn't have super high mineral additions, and the hops faded insanely quick. I'm not sure if that's due to Azacca just being one of 'those' hops that does that, or maybe we introduced too much O2)

I just did an Azacca beer..... It is similar to what you describe. Really don't like it at all. Super disappointed. Those hops taste NOTHING like the description - Thin, Sharp..... just not good. I don't see them finding their way back into a beer of mine.

In regard to yeast.... I am a conan/vermont IPA fan.

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

I just did an Azacca beer..... It is similar to what you describe. Really don't like it at all. Super disappointed. Those hops taste NOTHING like the description - Thin, Sharp..... just not good. I don't see them finding their way back into a beer of mine.

In regard to yeast.... I am a conan/vermont IPA fan.

Ah, so you think it was the hops, then?
It's weird because they were so incredibly tropical and I swear the beer was like hoppy Sunny D for a couple days, but it just fell off so ridiculously fast that I couldn't wrap my mind around it.

I was leaning towards either the yeast, or O2 pickup being the culprit.

Have you tried the London III with other hops and not gotten that weird medicinal-ey finish?
Very possible it was just the azacca. Really weird that the mouthfeel changed pretty noticeably too though. I'm super confused on that beer.

In regards to the topic at hand, though... it was pretty on point with the Trillium/HF stuff I've had for that short time. I was beyond excited until it turned thin and gross.

 

[leesmith]

What's your process? Hop addition timing, fermentation temperature? Can you post the recipe?

 

[Braufessor]

Ah, so you think it was the hops, then?
It's weird because they were so incredibly tropical and I swear the beer was like hoppy Sunny D for a couple days, but it just fell off so ridiculously fast that I couldn't wrap my mind around it.

I was leaning towards either the yeast, or O2 pickup being the culprit.

Have you tried the London III with other hops and not gotten that weird medicinal-ey finish?
Very possible it was just the azacca. Really weird that the mouthfeel changed pretty noticeably too though. I'm super confused on that beer.

In regards to the topic at hand, though... it was pretty on point with the Trillium/HF stuff I've had for that short time. I was beyond excited until it turned thin and gross.

Can't say for sure as it is about impossible to diagnose what is going on in a beer on line.... But, I do know that I have brewed the exact same beer 40 times - generally using various combinations of Citra, Galaxy and Mosaic. Those beers (at this point) come out exactly the same, time after time. All are just the way I like them.

This Azacca batch I did precisely the same.
.75 ounces of warrior to bitter
4 x 3 ounce additions
Flame out
Hop stand under 140
Dry hop 1 in primary
Dry hop 2 in dry hop keg

For this batch, because I wanted to really see what Azacca brought to the table each of the additions were suppose to be 2 ounces of Azacca and 1/2 ounce each of Citra and Galaxy.

I tried the beer at about day 10-12 (this would have been after the first dry hop was in fermenter for 4-5 days). I almost dumped it on the spot. Got a REALLY nasty metal/medicinal flavor. I let it ride though. and last dry hop (instead of more Azacca) I used 1.5 ounces each of Citra and Mosaic hoping to salvage it.

It is drinkable...... but, like I said, it comes across as thin, biting, sharp. Reminds be of a beer with too much Cascade in it almost....

I don't know, it has rebounded from that initial sample, and I have it on gas right now...... Will see how it comes around, but so far I am less than impressed with it. This is the only batch of this beer out of 40 or more that is anything like this at all. Only one with Azacca.

I have used 1318 on occasion (often for british beers, occasionally for other beers)..... but, not enough to really give any useful thoughts or advice.

 

[leesmith]

Does it taste like (I know this sounds odd) your sucking on a penny. Like a metallic bite sort of like tin foil taste...but really like a penny right in the middle of your tongue?

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Does it taste like (I know this sounds odd) your sucking on a penny. Like a metallic bite sort of like tin foil taste...but really like a penny right in the middle of your tongue?

sorta, yeah.

I'd describe as those throat sprays you get when you have strep throat or a cold.
That very medicinal, artificial, metallic taste.

I mean, it wasn't overbearing or anything, it was just a little bite of it in the after taste.

 

[Braufessor]

I just did an Azacca beer..... It is similar to what you describe. Really don't like it at all. Super disappointed. Those hops taste NOTHING like the description - Thin, Sharp..... just not good. I don't see them finding their way back into a beer of mine.

Wellllll....... I am not sure how, or why, but my azacca beer has actually come around and is pretty good. Still not my favorite all time hop or anything - but this is now a quite good pale ale. It is not as good as hops like citra, mosaic, galaxy..... and I think the description of it is misleading.

I have never had a beer change as much as this one has. It was truly "a dumper" when I tasted it around dry hopping/kegging time. It was "bad" shortly after putting on tap. It has gotten a little better since and is now pretty darn good.

It is lighter in flavor than some of the bigger hops.... but, nice and citrusy. I forgive you azacca - I might have to even use the rest of the bag

 

[brettwasbtd]

Wellllll....... I am not sure how, or why, but my azacca beer has actually come around and is pretty good. Still not my favorite all time hop or anything - but this is now a quite good pale ale. It is not as good as hops like citra, mosaic, galaxy..... and I think the description of it is misleading.

I have never had a beer change as much as this one has. It was truly "a dumper" when I tasted it around dry hopping/kegging time. It was "bad" shortly after putting on tap. It has gotten a little better since and is now pretty darn good.

It is lighter in flavor than some of the bigger hops.... but, nice and citrusy. I forgive you azacca - I might have to even use the rest of the bag

Glad it is making a turn for the better! I had been seeing all these negative reviews and getting worried - I purchased a pound and used some in my hoppy pale ale this past Saturday. Flameout whirlpool of .5 oz zythos, and .75oz each of citra and azacca (2.5 gal batch). I shook those three hops up with my hand covering the cup and then smelled...it was amazing. Like an artificial tropical fruit rollup explosion up front with low pine and low dank notes in the tail. Plan to dry hop with citra and azacca

 

[gometz]

I just did an Azacca beer..... It is similar to what you describe. Really don't like it at all. Super disappointed. Those hops taste NOTHING like the description - Thin, Sharp..... just not good. I don't see them finding their way back into a beer of mine.

In regard to yeast.... I am a conan/vermont IPA fan.

My Azacca IPA also seems much more muted than expected. I couldn't figure out why since I didn't do anything differently. For half a pound in a 5 gallon batch there's very little bitterness and aroma. Strangely the aroma seems to be improving after week 3 in the bottle.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Wellllll....... I am not sure how, or why, but my azacca beer has actually come around and is pretty good. Still not my favorite all time hop or anything - but this is now a quite good pale ale. It is not as good as hops like citra, mosaic, galaxy..... and I think the description of it is misleading.

I have never had a beer change as much as this one has. It was truly "a dumper" when I tasted it around dry hopping/kegging time. It was "bad" shortly after putting on tap. It has gotten a little better since and is now pretty darn good.

It is lighter in flavor than some of the bigger hops.... but, nice and citrusy. I forgive you azacca - I might have to even use the rest of the bag

not that I've used Azacca, but Founder's single hop Azacca IPA is great. there must be a specific way of treating it

 

[brewski09]

not that I've used Azacca, but Founder's single hop Azacca IPA is great. there must be a specific way of treating it

It could also be poor quality hops making it to homebrewers. I had that with a "new" hop variety previously that was fine a couple years later when I bought more (maybe a poor supplier the first time too)

 

[FruityHops]

I searched this thread and it doesn't seem like anyone has linked to this article from Shaun Hill

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

 

[orangehero]

That's a blog post from some guy named Scott. And the most recent time it was posted was 15 posts ago.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Your mom is some guy named Scott.