Still muted hop flavor in IPA

[oylerck]

I put 3 oz cascade in my beer after I had chilled it a little. That plus 6 oz galena to see what I would get. Absolutely none of this flavor stuck around or is so muted that the Munich is taking over.

However before with just pale malt I cannot get the late add hops to shine. Is it my water? I can't get culligan to test for sulfates and the city doesn't know.

 

[rmiranda]

I'd try dry hopping between 60 and 70 degrees. Casacade is a good hop for dry hopping. I'm not sure about Galena. 3oz of Casacade seems good enough to me for 5 gallons, but I'd let it sit around for at least 3-4 days. 7 days would be preferable. You can add it after fermentation or near the tail end of it. Lastly, dry hopping will give you an aroma, and a grassy flavor. If you want to hop flavor to come through it's all about recipe formulation and adding in those hops that you want to come through in the last 15 minutes or hop stand/whirlpool

In terms of Munich taking over, it sounds like you have a very malty recipe and dry hoping might not be something that would benefit the beer. What are you trying to brew?

Water is a long subject. But to start, I'd invest in a charcoal filter to make sure you are getting rid of all chlorine first. Chances are that this will make a significant difference to your beer.

 

[derekcw83]

You bottleor keg? What's your method of avoiding oxidation?

 

[oylerck]

I'd try dry hopping between 60 and 70 degrees. Casacade is a good hop for dry hopping. I'm not sure about Galena. 3oz of Casacade seems good enough to me for 5 gallons, but I'd let it sit around for at least 3-4 days. 7 days would be preferable. You can add it after fermentation or near the tail end of it. Lastly, dry hopping will give you an aroma, and a grassy flavor. If you want to hop flavor to come through it's all about recipe formulation and adding in those hops that you want to come through in the last 15 minutes or hop stand/whirlpool

In terms of Munich taking over, it sounds like you have a very malty recipe and dry hoping might not be something that would benefit the beer. What are you trying to brew?

Water is a long subject. But to start, I'd invest in a charcoal filter to make sure you are getting rid of all chlorine first. Chances are that this will make a significant difference to your beer.

I was doing hop stands not dry hopping. Sorry that wasn't clear. However the flavor still wasn't there until I threw an ounce of simcoe in a ball in the keg. That was fairly delicious... not quite enough but it's only been a day.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1494538751.286296.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1494538764.561749.jpg

 

[oylerck]

You bottleor keg? What's your method of avoiding oxidation?

Keg. I only primary and the autosiphon. When I open the fermenter it doesn't smell like I hopped anything.

 

[cswis86]

How long did you let them steep at flameout? I do 20-30 minutes for IPAs. If you really want a lot of hop aroma dry hopping is the best technique.

 

[crusader1612]

I put 3 oz cascade in my beer after I had chilled it a little. That plus 6 oz galena to see what I would get. Absolutely none of this flavor stuck around or is so muted that the Munich is taking over.

However before with just pale malt I cannot get the late add hops to shine. Is it my water? I can't get culligan to test for sulfates and the city doesn't know.

muted hop flavor and overly caramel flavours is diacetyl. sorry.

 

[oylerck]

How long did you let them steep at flameout? I do 20-30 minutes for IPAs. If you really want a lot of hop aroma dry hopping is the best technique.

I just leave them in

 

[oylerck]

muted hop flavor and overly caramel flavours is diacetyl. sorry.

It's not caramel it's more of a coffee taste. If I taste it with the Munich, shouldn't I taste it with 2-row as my only malt? I haven't had that before and this beer actually tastes quite good....

 

[rmiranda]

I was doing hop stands not dry hopping. Sorry that wasn't clear. However the flavor still wasn't there until I threw an ounce of simcoe in a ball in the keg. That was fairly delicious... not quite enough but it's only been a day.

View attachment 400034View attachment 400035

I'd use a different hop than Galena for a hop stand. Also, make sure that you're using fresh hops.

If I were you, I'd either go with the C20 or the Munich. Probably the C20 if I were to pick one. But Not both. If you use both You're going to get that sweetness that's going to mute the hops.

Try mashing 148-150. And use some gypsum.

This is my best guess. Other than the hops being muted. How did you like the beer?

 

[cswis86]

I just leave them in

What do you mean 'leave them in'? Do you dump everything into the fermentor including the hops and trub?

 

[oylerck]

What do you mean 'leave them in'? Do you dump everything into the fermentor including the hops and trub?

I dump everything in. I have seen no evidence that either way effects the result.

 

[oylerck]

I'd use a different hop than Galena for a hop stand. Also, make sure that you're using fresh hops.

If I were you, I'd either go with the C20 or the Munich. Probably the C20 if I were to pick one. But Not both. If you use both You're going to get that sweetness that's going to mute the hops.

Try mashing 148-150. And use some gypsum.

This is my best guess. Other than the hops being muted. How did you like the beer?

I was experimenting with the Munich. It's actually pretty good but I need more hoppiness. I did mash low and it's fairly dry. I also experimented with the galena. No report online about it so I thought it was worth a shot.

However, I haven't been successful getting cascade to stand out In any of my beers. I'm hoping a tsp-tbsp if gypsum fixes it so I will try Saturday. Same recipe but only galena for fwh and then simcoe all the way. Same levels, in fact I have 11 ounces I can use. The galena is only because I have a lot and it was cheap at the time. I think the Munich and the simcoe will blend well together.

 

[TheGoatman]

$30 + shipping and you can get your water tested. It's pretty useful information. Ward Labs.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

From a water perspective, I find it much easier to just use RO water and build it the way I want, rather than trying to work around whatever water comes out of the tap.

I don't remember the exact price, but I think it's less than 25 cents a gallon. I fill a couple 5 gallon jugs and I'm ready for brew day with no hassles. I use Bru'n water to calculate my additions and PH. It's worked really well for me.

Frankly, I'm surprised everyone doesn't do it that way. Even when I brewed extract back in the 90's I always used RO water.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I was doing hop stands not dry hopping. Sorry that wasn't clear. However the flavor still wasn't there until I threw an ounce of simcoe in a ball in the keg. That was fairly delicious... not quite enough but it's only been a day.

View attachment 400034View attachment 400035

I think whirlpool additions (and late boil additions) have their place in the flavor profile, but you have to be mindful of how quickly you chill. A 10 minute addition, followed by a 20 minute unchilled flame out addition (just an example, not from your recipe) and a really slow chill process is really more like a 30-60 minute addition. When I build my recipes, I make sure to account for how long it takes to chill to below 170 (and I really like additions/stands at that 170 mark).

I'm also a firm believer that you need some dry hops to really pull it together (if you really want to experience the hops). I got a "brew day" experience with the head brewer of a local micro brewery for Christmas. At the time I wasn't building my own recipes, so I just spec'd an approach (single hop PA featuring El Dorado). There was a 60 minute addition followed by a 10 minute and flame out additions. No dry hop. Between the small quantities of hops and no dry hop, it had little/no hop flavor that you could really discern. Hardly the El Dorado showcase I was hoping for.

I have my version of what I wanted in the fermentor now and will be adding a couple ounces of dry hops later today. I can pretty much guarantee mine will be better than what we brewed with a pro in February.

 

[Yooper]

muted hop flavor and overly caramel flavours is diacetyl. sorry.

No, it's not. Diacetyl is "slick", or oily, in the mouthfeel and can have a buttery or toffee like flavor in large amounts.

Oxidation is muted hops flavor and some caramel/sherry notes.

However, in this case I think it's the galena hops. They are great for bittering, but they have very little what I would consider "hops flavor" or "aroma". They are pretty neutral and not "hoppy" to me.

 

[oylerck]

No, it's not. Diacetyl is "slick", or oily, in the mouthfeel and can have a buttery or toffee like flavor in large amounts.



Oxidation is muted hops flavor and some caramel/sherry notes.



However, in this case I think it's the galena hops. They are great for bittering, but they have very little what I would consider "hops flavor" or "aroma". They are pretty neutral and not "hoppy" to me.

So in the end it's not enough cascade? I'm going to do the recipe with all simcoe tomorrow. Maybe keep galena as the fwh. Do you think I should keep the quantities the same?

 

[oylerck]

I think whirlpool additions (and late boil additions) have their place in the flavor profile, but you have to be mindful of how quickly you chill. A 10 minute addition, followed by a 20 minute unchilled flame out addition (just an example, not from your recipe) and a really slow chill process is really more like a 30-60 minute addition. When I build my recipes, I make sure to account for how long it takes to chill to below 170 (and I really like additions/stands at that 170 mark).



I'm also a firm believer that you need some dry hops to really pull it together (if you really want to experience the hops). I got a "brew day" experience with the head brewer of a local micro brewery for Christmas. At the time I wasn't building my own recipes, so I just spec'd an approach (single hop PA featuring El Dorado). There was a 60 minute addition followed by a 10 minute and flame out additions. No dry hop. Between the small quantities of hops and no dry hop, it had little/no hop flavor that you could really discern. Hardly the El Dorado showcase I was hoping for.



I have my version of what I wanted in the fermentor now and will be adding a couple ounces of dry hops later today. I can pretty much guarantee mine will be better than what we brewed with a pro in February.

Well I chill in ice water but it still takes a bit. I haven't fixed my wort chiller but I think I froze it during the winter. Good thing it was homemade.

 

[crusader1612]

No, it's not. Diacetyl is "slick", or oily, in the mouthfeel and can have a buttery or toffee like flavor in large amounts.

Oxidation is muted hops flavor and some caramel/sherry notes.

However, in this case I think it's the galena hops. They are great for bittering, but they have very little what I would consider "hops flavor" or "aroma". They are pretty neutral and not "hoppy" to me.

i understand the oxidation side of thing, and it would bethat.
but in my experience, diacetyl somes overly caramelly and overly bitter. diacetyl mutes hop flavor, and while the traditional butterscotch happens in some cases, in my erperience ive had notes of these rather than the butterscotch.

in all cases the firstthing i look at when my beer isnt as aromatic as i'd like is diacetyl, its a pre-cursor in m,ost beers, so i generally look for this first and foremost.

 

[woo_pig]

Im having the same problem.