Hop stand

[NathPowe]

No problem man. Hope the beer comes out great. I just mashed in for a pale ale I'm doing with Nelson Sauvin and Pacific Jade. Pretty stoked for it - definitely rocking the whirlpool/hopstand hops for this one.

Enjoy the brew.

 

[ahurd110]

That sounds tasty. Did you calculate what ibu you'll get from the knockout addition? I've done plenty of hop stands but never a bittering and knockout addition like that.

Looks like it adds up to 26 ibus from the steep. I'm curious to see how the bitterness comes across in comparison to the calculated value.

 

[ahurd110]

Just pulled a hydro sample after 2 weeks. Dropped to 1.013. Hop profile was pretty well in line with beers I've done using the same hops in the boil as opposed to flameout only. Aroma may have been a touch stronger, but nothing that blew me away or seemed out of the ordinary.

Bitterness was pretty low, but its hard to really peg when its flat. I just added 3oz of dry hops and will rack and carb later this week. Will post a full review when the beer is in its prime.

 

[Malty_Dog]

Question on chilling after a whirlpool/hopstand: How are you guys sanitizing your wort chillers? Normally I'd put it in the BK with 10 min or so left in the boil but since I did a whirlpool/hopstand I did a Starsan soak for a few minutes. I thought I remembered reading that StarSan soaks + copper wort chiller = not good.

 

[WesleyS]

Question on chilling after a whirlpool/hopstand: How are you guys sanitizing your wort chillers? Normally I'd put it in the BK with 10 min or so left in the boil but since I did a whirlpool/hopstand I did a Starsan soak for a few minutes. I thought I remembered reading that StarSan soaks + copper wort chiller = not good.

Even with a hop stand I still just put my IC in with 15 min left in the boil and it stays in the whole time I do the hop stand. When the hop stand is over, I turn the water on and chill as I normally would.

 

[BassBeer]

That's what I do as well, no problems

 

[NathPowe]

even with a hop stand i still just put my ic in with 15 min left in the boil and it stays in the whole time i do the hop stand. When the hop stand is over, i turn the water on and chill as i normally would.

+2

 

[VonAle]

Question on chilling after a whirlpool/hopstand: How are you guys sanitizing your wort chillers? Normally I'd put it in the BK with 10 min or so left in the boil but since I did a whirlpool/hopstand I did a Starsan soak for a few minutes. I thought I remembered reading that StarSan soaks + copper wort chiller = not good.

I put mine in a tub of Idophor solution. This way i can cover the pot during the hopstand.

 

[VonAle]

The temperature has two important implications (as far as I've concluded)

1) Above 180, you're going to isomerize compounds and add bitterness. Not as much as higher temps, but you will.

2) Higher temperatures extract heavier molecules. Any coffee or tea aficionados experience this all the time. I hate coffee or tea made with boiling water. If you look on packages of loose leaf tea, they actually suggest using water between 180 and 195 degrees (I live in CO so this ends up being my boiling temp anyways!).

"Heavier" molecules tend to be earthy, bitter, tangy (hay flavors as well) and bitter in tea. While "lighter" molecules are more floral, fruity, and only slightly grassy. Extrapolating this to hops, I think, is possible. I've noticed that Amarillo, Citra and NS really came through in a SMaSH steep, but my Apollo and Simcoe did not. I'm not saying the Apollo and Simcoe tasted like nothing, but they were much smoother than normal. The Apollo was delicious, which is not anything I've heard someone say and the Simcoe was a remarkably smooth shadow of its normal self. I applied the simcoe steep to a heavy American strong ale and the results were the same.

Just my extra long two cents

^^ I find this to be very interesting.

I've been cooling to 150 degrees in my swimming pool, then adding 4 oz, whirlpool, cover and rest for 60 min. I wrap in blankets to insulate and don't pull the cover until after the rest and I start to chill. I'm usually at about 140 degrees after 60 min.

With this method, the aroma and flavor is as stated above, floral and fruity. Not the sharp, fresh bitter edgy nose and taste that I want. I've used centennial, simcoe, falconers flight and willamette in hopstands and they all seem to taste the same.

Next time, I'm going to hopstand at 180 and see what happens.

 

[TheHairyHop]

^^ I find this to be very interesting.

I've been cooling to 150 degrees in my swimming pool, then adding 4 oz, whirlpool, cover and rest for 60 min. I wrap in blankets to insulate and don't pull the cover until after the rest and I start to chill. I'm usually at about 140 degrees after 60 min.

With this method, the aroma and flavor is as stated above, floral and fruity. Not the sharp, fresh bitter edgy nose and taste that I want. I've used centennial, simcoe, falconers flight and willamette in hopstands and they all seem to taste the same.

Next time, I'm going to hopstand at 180 and see what happens.

Sounds good. I've always wanted to do more controlled experiments but I'm saving that until I have an automated system. It'll just take a lot of effort to really knock out a decent experiment.

I did two stage stands (180 and 165) for a few of my beers. I wouldn't expect much bitterness from 180 because that's the threshold of isomerization. Make sure you report back!

 

[VonAle]

Sounds good. I've always wanted to do more controlled experiments but I'm saving that until I have an automated system. It'll just take a lot of effort to really knock out a decent experiment.

I did two stage stands (180 and 165) for a few of my beers. I wouldn't expect much bitterness from 180 because that's the threshold of isomerization. Make sure you report back!

I've tried a two stage stand with no noticable difference to one at 150.

I should also mention, My hop schedule is(was) FWH-FO-DH

Next IPA is going to be something like, 60-10-FO-DH
Simply move the FWH to 60 and 10

 

[worthogg]

So the new version of Beersmith lets you input a percentage for bitterness utilization when hops are steeped/whirlpooled. The software says it should be set at 50% for a temperature of 194F. It seems like most people on here are estimating much lower than that. Temps are all over the board. I set my utilization at 20% because I hopstand at 180F (I admit this 20% number was a total guess). What is everyone else setting theirs to?

 

[TheHairyHop]

imo, you're looking more at single digits than 20%. 180 is when utilization is first possible. It's not going to be very efficient. How long does it take to boil water if you set the burner to boiling temp?

 

[worthogg]

imo, you're looking more at single digits than 20%. 180 is when utilization is first possible. It's not going to be very efficient. How long does it take to boil water if you set the burner to boiling temp?

I think I'll set mine to 10% at the risk of overbittering. Once I do my next couple of brews with this number plugged in I should have a pretty good gauge for any bitterness I get from my whirlpool additions. Then adjust accordingly...

 

[ahurd110]

Just brewed a hopstand IPA on Saturday. 45 minute boil with a 40 ibu bittering addition and everything else post flameout.

4 oz of hops right after cutting the flame (mix of nelson, galaxy, amarillo, and simcoe), let sit for about 20 minutes with occasional stirring. No cover.

After 20 min the chiller was turned on and the wort was cooled to 165. Cut chiller, add another dose of hops, same amount and blend above. Let sit for another 20 min, covered, with more frequent stirring. Wort dropped to 145 during this time.

Finished chilling, dropped to pitch temp and threw some s-05 in. OG of 1.068. Fermenting away happily now. Will hit with 3 oz of dryhops after 14 days then rack to keg.

I will update how it turns out, this is my first time trying a beer with no aroma or flavor additions during the boil, and with a sub-60min boil.

So this one has been on tap for a minute, and I have to say the hop stand worked almost too well. 8oz of hops lent post boil lent a ton of flavor--so much so that a lot of undesirable grassy and vegetal flavor came across into the final beer. The hop flavor is also just a strong, generic raw hop-pellet like flavor. It is actually tough to even tell what hops are used, even though nelson in particular should be very distinctive.

The bitterness is also quite strong. It tastes in line with IPAs I've done with 125+calculated ibus.

The hop flavor is also quite one-dimensional. It smacks you hard upfront, then drops with no real complexity or depth.

All in all, I'm a bit disappointed, but this was meant to be an experiment, so no big deal. In the future I will still add at flameout and at 160, but I will be using 5 and 10 min additions as well to get a nice layered flavor.

 

[tgmartin000]

So this one has been on tap for a minute, and I have to say the hop stand worked almost too well. 8oz of hops lent post boil lent a ton of flavor--so much so that a lot of undesirable grassy and vegetal flavor came across into the final beer. The hop flavor is also just a strong, generic raw hop-pellet like flavor. It is actually tough to even tell what hops are used, even though nelson in particular should be very distinctive.

The bitterness is also quite strong. It tastes in line with IPAs I've done with 125+calculated ibus.

The hop flavor is also quite one-dimensional. It smacks you hard upfront, then drops with no real complexity or depth.

All in all, I'm a bit disappointed, but this was meant to be an experiment, so no big deal. In the future I will still add at flameout and at 160, but I will be using 5 and 10 min additions as well to get a nice layered flavor.

THanks for the update. I'm just getting ready to carb a galaxy IPA that used a big addition at knockout and a big addition once the wort hit 150, with a total 1-hour hop stand. Looking forward to it!

 

[TheHairyHop]

So this one has been on tap for a minute, and I have to say the hop stand worked almost too well. 8oz of hops lent post boil lent a ton of flavor--so much so that a lot of undesirable grassy and vegetal flavor came across into the final beer. The hop flavor is also just a strong, generic raw hop-pellet like flavor. It is actually tough to even tell what hops are used, even though nelson in particular should be very distinctive.

The bitterness is also quite strong. It tastes in line with IPAs I've done with 125+calculated ibus.

The hop flavor is also quite one-dimensional. It smacks you hard upfront, then drops with no real complexity or depth.

All in all, I'm a bit disappointed, but this was meant to be an experiment, so no big deal. In the future I will still add at flameout and at 160, but I will be using 5 and 10 min additions as well to get a nice layered flavor.

How fresh were those hops? I've only ever used less than 3 Oz in flameout. I think you might have gone overboard

 

[ddicker60]

Is there an issue with using an immersion chiller and hop standing. I have done a few hop stands and loved it. My dad finally got a chiller for christmas and plan on doing an APA with 3oz FO/Hop stand

 

[TheHairyHop]

Is there an issue with using an immersion chiller and hop standing. I have done a few hop stands and loved it. My dad finally got a chiller for christmas and plan on doing an APA with 3oz FO/Hop stand

Your question is a bit broad. I can answer if you're more specific

 

[ddicker60]

Pretty much can I use a copper chiller while doing a hop stand? I know most people put theirs in the last 15min of the boil and then chill, would there be sanitation issues if it sat in the wort during the hop stand before I start chilling again?

 

[TheHairyHop]

As long as it's not leaky then I think you should have little issues. I just boil my chiller with the wort, makes it all easy

 

[ahurd110]

How fresh were those hops? I've only ever used less than 3 Oz in flameout. I think you might have gone overboard

It was overboard for sure. But as this was an experiment to see if you could brew an all-flameout IPA, overboard was kinda the point. The hops were all 2012 crop, a mix of southern hemisphere and northern, vacuum-sealed in mylar until brewday, so fresheness shouldn't have been an issue.

I've kegged an IPA with a more standard 2.5 oz hop stand and the results are lovely.

 

[TAK]

Pretty much can I use a copper chiller while doing a hop stand? I know most people put theirs in the last 15min of the boil and then chill, would there be sanitation issues if it sat in the wort during the hop stand before I start chilling again?

I put my copper chiller in the last 15 min of the boil, kill the flame, turn on the chill for just a minute or two to get the temp down a tad, toss in my hop charge. With the chiller in, you can't put a lid on for the hop stand, so I cover it with aluminum foil which can be loosely wrapped around the part of the chiller that sticks out.

 

[pharaohpierre]

I read the Stone article on hop stands and I've been reading this thread as well. I'm still questioning how the strong aroma stays in the beer. In my understanding, you put a lid on the boiler during your hop stand to keep the aroma in. But once you start fermenting the CO2 is knocking everything out of the beer anyway. Can someone elaborate on how to keep the aroma in the beer please.

 

[TAK]

I read the Stone article on hop stands and I've been reading this thread as well. I'm still questioning how the strong aroma stays in the beer. In my understanding, you put a lid on the boiler during your hop stand to keep the aroma in. But once you start fermenting the CO2 is knocking everything out of the beer anyway. Can someone elaborate on how to keep the aroma in the beer please.

CO2 will always scrub some aroma out during fermentation. CO2 does not knock "everything" out of the beer. Either way, Hopstands don't prevent this. They do, however, put you in a good position before fermentation to have as much as possible left over in the finished product. Also, hopstands aren't all about aroma. You get some really good flavor stability from them too. Some treat hopstands as a substitute for dry hopping. Myself, I always dry hop my IPAs in addition to the hopstand.

 

[ddicker60]

I know we shouldn't look to the big guys for everything, but hopstands/whirlpooling are manly the only flavor/aroma the big boys (with dry hopping) instead of general 30, 15 additions. To each is own, but I will say the flavor and aroma from hop stands are great IMO.

 

[pharaohpierre]

that sounds pretty good TAK, thanks for the feedback. I'll try whirlpooling next time and see for myself the type of results I get and see what the hype is all about. I'm still gonna dry hop though

 

[BassBeer]

I just brewed a pale ale today with the only hop additions at FWH, 5 min, and flameout, with a 45 minute hopstand between 180F-140F. Should be bursting with hoppy goodness.

I also plan on dry hopping a couple ounces for 7 days. IME you get a pronounced flavor and aroma increase from the hopstand, but dry hopping adds another unique layer of complexity which is definitely worth the extra work.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I just brewed a pale ale today with the only hop additions at FWH, 5 min, and flameout, with a 45 minute hopstand between 180F-140F. Should be bursting with hoppy goodness.

I also plan on dry hopping a couple ounces for 7 days. IME you get a pronounced flavor and aroma increase from the hopstand, but dry hopping adds another unique layer of complexity which is definitely worth the extra work.

I've recently become a little disenfranchised with the method. Maybe I'm not standing hot enough or using enough hops? I've just noticed that if I dry hop with 3 oz I get WAY more flavor than standing with the same amount.

 

[gometz]

I've done a few hop stands and the last one was 20 minutes at 150*F and I can tell from the unfinished beer it was not hot or long enough. I am still worried about the flavor impact of doing a hop stand at 170*F, has anyone noticed off flavors from doing them so hot?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Why would you expect off flavors

 

[gometz]

Why would you expect off flavors

I'd always heard about DMS formation at higher temperatures if you don't cool your wort down fast enough?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Never had it. If you boil for an hour and don't use grain that was malted by someone down the street, you will be fine

 

[rafaelpinto]

Strange thing, I brewed an IPA with only late hop additions and a nice hop stand. When I taste the primary sample, however, I get no aroma or flavor.

I dont remember stirring after adding hop stand hops... could that be the problem?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah, you got to stir, agitate to speed up extraction. They're sometimes called whirlpool hops. Aside from the hop variety, time, temperature, and agitation will have a large impact on flavor and aroma extraction, and gives you sometimes a little bittering too. Much aroma gets stripped during the fermentation. An IPA really should be dry hopped for that in your face aroma and it will give you some flavor too.

 

[rafaelpinto]

An IPA really should be dry hopped for that in your face aroma and it will give you some flavor too.

Yeah, I was asking myself: if you cannot dry hop during primary due to aroma scaping with co2, why would hopstand work?

 

[IslandLizard]

A hop stand leaves mostly flavor, and as you noticed a lot of the original aroma is reduced during fermentation. Wait for the primary to completely finish, clear the beer (cold crash with or without gelatin), dry hop for 4-7 days, then package. Drink within 4-6 weeks to get all the hop goodness at its prime. It's downhill from thereon again.

 

[wyobrewer1]

A hop stand leaves mostly flavor, and as you noticed a lot of the original aroma is reduced during fermentation. Wait for the primary to completely finish, clear the beer (cold crash with or without gelatin), dry hop for 4-7 days, then package. Drink within 4-6 weeks to get all the hop goodness at its prime. It's downhill from thereon again.

Well said. I read that another key to a good dry hop is racking to a secondary as the yeast can absorb some hop aroma.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[IslandLizard]

Well said. I read that another key to a good dry hop is racking to a secondary as the yeast can absorb some hop aroma.

No need to rack to secondary. Cold crash your primary for 1-3 days and most suspended yeast will have dropped out. Warm back up to room temps (overnight) and dry hop. Don't shake it up.

If you want to save a cleaner yeast, use a sanitized hop bag weighted down with a few glass marbles, or rack to secondary or keg. A little agitation (think tea bag dunking) a few times a day helps to disperse the hop oils into your beer.

 

[Calichusetts]

I don't use a secondary anymore but looking back...I did have better results dry hopping in the secondary. Now, I need to use more hops to achieve the same level of hoppiness that I got in the past. No idea how to explain it, but its pretty consistent.