Hop stand

[wyobrewer1]

I was under the impression that getting a good cold break is more about chilling rapidly (via a wort chiller) and not about how long after the boil it takes to get to pitching temp.

 

[hogwash]

I'll have to pay closer attention to the cold break on my next IPA. I went through a period where I was unsuccessfully trying to whirlpool before draining my kettle and everything would get mixed up so I couldn't really tell if I got a good one or not. A bit off topic but I've since given up on whirlpooling and, not coincidentally, the wort going into my fermenter is much more clear.

 

[Holy_Hops]

I've given up on whirlpooling, too. I usually just make a 6 gallon batch if I want five & then siphon the wort into the fermenter & leave the trub & hops behind.

 

[McCuckerson]

I did a hop stand a few months ago on an IPA I was doing. My main question is if the CO2 pushes out alot of the hop aroma early on. The beer smelled great with big hop notes for the first few days of fermentation. After that, the hop aroma really went away and never returned. How are you guys getting such great hop aroma from a hop stand?

Cooler ferm temps keep the CO2 from scrubbing away too much hop aroma. What temp are you fermenting at? and what yeast?

 

[Rake_Rocko]

So lets think about this. The thing that gives beer the hop aroma that we strive for are the volatile essential oils (humulene, myrcene, etc). So these are the chemicals that we don't want to "boil" off. However, I would venture to say that if you have steam coming off your wort (at high temps just below 212), then those oils are still leaving the wort since they are so volatile. This is why I cool my wort to the 140 range, then cover, and do my hop stand from there.

Now, once these oils get absorbed, they are in the wort. Theoretically, if the oils are what gives that hop aroma that we want, then CO2 shouldn't release those oils from the wort (turning to beer at this point) because they can only be "boiled" off. I am quite sure that many people will go against me on this one, but is there anyone out there that thinks like me?

 

[wyobrewer1]

Everything I've read says rack to secondary to get off the yeast since they absorb a lot of hop aroma. Never heard anything about CO2 and hop aroma. I guess it kind of make sense in that you don't dry hop until fermentation is mostly finished because you could essentially have the same effect as boiling and losing the hop aroma you are looking for.

 

[dogbar]

Theoretically, if the oils are what gives that hop aroma that we want, then CO2 shouldn't release those oils from the wort (turning to beer at this point) because they can only be "boiled" off. I am quite sure that many people will go against me on this one, but is there anyone out there that thinks like me?

If the only way for those oils to come out of solution was boiling then we wouldn't be able to smell them wafting out of the pint. We've probably all had the experience of sniffing the airlock on an IPA and being simultaneously delighted and bummed.

This is a great thread. The biggest issue for me with a hop stand would just be adding time to the brewday. Family responsibilities and all that.

 

[Rake_Rocko]

If the only way for those oils to come out of solution was boiling then we wouldn't be able to smell them wafting out of the pint.

I definitely understand your point but I don't think I explained what was in my head well enough and that's totally my fault.

I meant that yes we can obviously smell those aromas from the co2, but that's because the bubbles move up through the glass and pop at the top releasing those aromas. The co2 gets absorbed into the beer, and when a bottle is cracked it creates the carbonation bubbles.

I guess what I'm saying is don't you think that those oils stay with the wort/beer as long as its not at such a high temperature?

If you couldn't tell, I'm playing devils advocate. Also, I struggle to find this topic of hop aroma when I search for it. So I love this.

 

[bozizle]

I have done 2 IPA's with the hop stand and I am noticing a stronger bitterness coming through with less aroma and flavor of the late additions. I have dropped the temp to 165 stir them good and whirlpool for 20-25 mins..while I really like the bitterness more throughout the sip I feel like my citrus/fruity combos are mellowed out a lot using this technique. Any one else getting this as well?

 

[Gameface]

So, I'm making my first IPA of the year today and based on this thread I changed things up a little to include doing a hop-stand.

Would love a sanity check on my recipe and particularly my hopping schedule. I'm breaking open my bag of whole leaf Amarillo hops from hops direct for this guy. Never brewed with Amarillo before.
10.5G
Grain:
22lbs US 2-row
2lbs C-120
2lbs DME (no more room in the mash tun)

Mash at 152 60 min

4.5oz Amarillo 9.8% FWH 60min
2oz Amarillo 9.8% Flameout
3oz Amarillo 9.8% Hop Stand @ 180F
4oz Amarillo 9.8% Dry Hop 3 days

I changed my recipe so that there are NO hops added during the boil, only the first wort hops then the flameout and hop stand hops. I'm not going to be missing anything doing it this way, am I?

Thanks for any help, I greatly appreciate it.

 

[LovesIPA]

I have done 2 IPA's with the hop stand and I am noticing a stronger bitterness coming through with less aroma and flavor of the late additions. I have dropped the temp to 165 stir them good and whirlpool for 20-25 mins..while I really like the bitterness more throughout the sip I feel like my citrus/fruity combos are mellowed out a lot using this technique. Any one else getting this as well?

I've done a few hopstand batches now and I'm noticing the same thing. The aroma and flavor is there but it doesn't come across as well as a beer with a traditional hop schedule might. They seem to be a little more bitter than I expected as well.

 

[LovesIPA]

I changed my recipe so that there are NO hops added during the boil, only the first wort hops then the flameout and hop stand hops. I'm not going to be missing anything doing it this way, am I?

Nope, this is exactly what I do. What's nice is that you don't need to time the boil. Collect the wort and boil it down until you have the correct volume. For me it's about 5.6 gallons. Then add the hops and go find something to do.

 

[bozizle]

Nope, this is exactly what I do. What's nice is that you don't need to time the boil. Collect the wort and boil it down until you have the correct volume. For me it's about 5.6 gallons. Then add the hops and go find something to do.

So are you even doing a 60 min boil?

 

[LovesIPA]

At least 60 mins. Usually closer to 90. I collect ~7.5 gallons and boil down to ~5.6.

 

[ncbrewer]

I have done 2 IPA's with the hop stand and I am noticing a stronger bitterness coming through with less aroma and flavor of the late additions. I have dropped the temp to 165 stir them good and whirlpool for 20-25 mins..while I really like the bitterness more throughout the sip I feel like my citrus/fruity combos are mellowed out a lot using this technique. Any one else getting this as well?

I just tried a batch using a hop stand and really had high hopes (still in the fermenter, so I don't know yet). Your experience dampened my enthusiasm a little. Did you steep it covered or uncovered?

 

[Gameface]

Nope, this is exactly what I do. What's nice is that you don't need to time the boil. Collect the wort and boil it down until you have the correct volume. For me it's about 5.6 gallons. Then add the hops and go find something to do.

Thanks!

Flameout hops steeping now...

Adjusted my mill and way overshot my OG. Now I'm really happy I aimed high on IBUs when setting up my recipe.

 

[Rake_Rocko]

Did you steep it covered or uncovered?

This is the critical part of doing a hopstand. You have to COVER it, otherwise the volatile essential oils will be lost in the steam.

 

[Gameface]

This is the critical part of doing a hopstand. You have to COVER it, otherwise the volatile essential oils will be lost in the steam.

Dang, I did it wrong.

 

[cuda6pak]

Are people without pumps/recirc ability doing these hop stands by just cooling the worst down to 170ish, throwing the hops in, and letting it steep covered without stirring with a spoon?

Or is it essential to stir/whirlpool while doing a hopstand?

 

[wyobrewer1]

I stirred with my wort chiller. Kind of a pain but it seemed to work. I'd say theoretically it makes more sense to have the wort moving at least somewhat.

 

[jbaysurfer]

From what I've been reading on the subject, take both the dry-hopping and aroma additions and use those hops instead. Also, hopstands seem to work really well when you perform them for 80-90 minutes - again, from what I've read. I would not let the wort cool below 170. Fire the burner occasionally to keep it in the ~180 vicinity.

I'm a little late to this show, but I wouldn't let my wort sit at DMS creation temps for that long. I do a hopstand/whirlpool for my hoppy beers and I cool the wort to 150f as quickly as possible then stop chilling while I let my hops stand/whirlpool (I use a pump to create a whirlpool). I usually let it stand for 20-30 minutes, but it's possible a longer stand might get me better results. As is, this is a great way to add hop aroma to hoppy beers, but nothing beats dry hopping IMHO. I would not cut back on the dryhop for the purposes of hopstanding, I'd just add all my aroma additions at flameout and let those hops be the hopstand.

YMMV.

 

[Rake_Rocko]

I wouldn't let my wort sit at DMS creation temps for that long. I do a hopstand/whirlpool for my hoppy beers and I cool the wort to 150f as quickly as possible then stop chilling while I let my hops stand/whirlpool (I use a pump to create a whirlpool). I usually let it stand for 20-30 minutes, but it's possible a longer stand might get me better results.

This exactly! Don't quote me on this, but I think I remember seeing that DMS forms in the 160-180 range. That is why whenever I do a hopstand I use my CFC to chill my wort to 140 as quickly as possible, then do the hopstand. Longest ive done it is 30 minutes. But I think it's worth trying longer next time. Just to see if there's better results.

Although I get amazing results with just the 30.

 

[AnOldUR]

From what I've read, you're right. DMS is formed at temperatures above 160, but below boiling. The thing is that the amount of DMS formed during an extended whirlpool in the 160 to 170 range is not that great and the CO2 scrubbing action during the first few days of fermentation should be enough to eliminate any that does form.

 

[LovesIPA]

Interesting. I steep for 90 minutes between 160 and 180 and while I'd like to improve the hop flavor and aroma, I haven't noticed any cooked vegetable notes from any of my beers.

 

[trent]

All this DMS talk after a 60-90 boil is BS. Every batch I do is a minimum 30 minute whirlpool at 180-200. Pretty much all large breweries do at least a 20 min whirlpool at temps higher than 160.

 

[wobdee]

I was also thinking DMS shouldn't be a problem with well modified malt and a 60+ minute boil. I do a lot of hop stands with my lid on above 160 and have yet to taste any off flavors.

 

[ZeMadMonkey]

I am of the same opinion as wobdee, that if you have a nice rolling boil and you boil 60+ min you should have no problem with DMS.

The two beers that I did a hopstand with, an IPA and a DIPA, had no DMS issues. With the IPA I did a 60 min boil and for the DIPA I did a 90 min boil. The lid was off the entire boil. When it was time for flameout, I killed my heat, added my hops, and gently stirred my wort for roughly 5 min. I waited for most of the steam off the wort to die down, then I put my lid mostly on but cracked a bit at the edge to release any steam coming off the wort.

I didn't chill my wort on those two beers, though I am going to try the whole 170-180 temp range next time. I just cut the heat, added my hops, gently stirred, put the lid mostly on, and did a 30 min hopstand.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I am of the same opinion as wobdee, that if you have a nice rolling boil and you boil 60+ min you should have no problem with DMS.

The two beers that I did a hopstand with, an IPA and a DIPA, had no DMS issues. With the IPA I did a 60 min boil and for the DIPA I did a 90 min boil. The lid was off the entire boil. When it was time for flameout, I killed my heat, added my hops, and gently stirred my wort for roughly 5 min. I waited for most of the steam off the wort to die down, then I put my lid mostly on but cracked a bit at the edge to release any steam coming off the wort.

I didn't chill my wort on those two beers, though I am going to try the whole 170-180 temp range next time. I just cut the heat, added my hops, gently stirred, put the lid mostly on, and did a 30 min hopstand.

Just to contribute for prosperity's sake, I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding about how and when DMS formation takes place. It takes place whenever the wort is heated above 176(ish)F. DMSO is another animal, and related, but less of a concern, and it forms above 140F.

From Palmer:

DMS is produced in the wort during the boil by the reduction of another compound, S-methyl-methionine (SMM), which is itself produced during malting....

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

THIS post is a great one on the subject, and that thread is a good conversation.

I'm very sensitive to DMS, so I generally cool to 150F for my hopstands. Leaving the lid on during the boil, or during the hopstand (above 176F for certain) will encourage DMS to collect in the steam and recondense on the interior of the lid, usually dripping back into the wort when you remove the lid. I like to get to where I'm comfortable there is no DMS formation (or very very little) and then cover my wort for the hopstand to keep airborne stuff from coming in.

Everyone's entitled to brew however it works best for them, and I'm ok with that, but as someone who is very sensitive to DMS (and I don't like it!) I take every precaution possible to avoid it.

Anyone who say's talk of it is "BS" may make fantastic brew, but I question their grasp of the science behind it. DMS is very real. Some boogeymen type fears do exists IMHO, like HSA (speaking in very general terms), but DMS is not one of them.

Highly kilned malts do tend to have less SMM formation (the precursor of DMS), so if you're not sensitive to DMS and you're not using a lot of pilsner malt, you may not even know if your beer has it.

All IMHO, and just for conversation's sake. If anyone is brewing what they consider to be acceptable beer and not thinking twice about DMS formation, more power to them.

 

[eastoak]

All this DMS talk after a 60-90 boil is BS. Every batch I do is a minimum 30 minute whirlpool at 180-200. Pretty much all large breweries do at least a 20 min whirlpool at temps higher than 160.

this is correct. a friend of mine owns a small brewery (rustic ales in capitola ca) and it takes him 2 hrs to chill his 200+ gal kettle, never detected DMS in his beer. i used to hurry my chill when i was starting out, tripping over everything in my hurry to chill the wort down. these days i do a 20-30 min hop stand then gravity feed the wort, with an occasional assist from the pump, which takes another 10-15 min.

 

[McCuckerson]

this is correct. a friend of mine owns a small brewery (rustic ales in capitola ca) and it takes him 2 hrs to chill his 200+ gal kettle, never detected DMS in his beer. i used to hurry my chill when i was starting out, tripping over everything in my hurry to chill the wort down. these days i do a 20-30 min hop stand then gravity feed the wort, with an occasional assist from the pump, which takes another 10-15 min.

+1, DMS is long gone after boil. Think of it this way: my berliner weiss is boiled for 15min. Its pilsner and wheat. Its 1.032OG and there is no detectible DMS.

What I would REALLY like to see is a traditional hop schedule converted to a hop-stand schedule.

 

[wyobrewer1]

+1, DMS is long gone after boil. Think of it this way: my berliner weiss is boiled for 15min. Its pilsner and wheat. Its 1.032OG and there is no detectible DMS.

What I would REALLY like to see is a traditional hop schedule converted to a hop-stand schedule.

Read the BYO article on hop stands. I think he suggests taking your late addition hops an cutting them in half and do a whirlpool (stir if you don't have a pump) for like 20 minutes. And then I think even cut dry hops in half.

 

[eastoak]

+1, DMS is long gone after boil. Think of it this way: my berliner weiss is boiled for 15min. Its pilsner and wheat. Its 1.032OG and there is no detectible DMS.

What I would REALLY like to see is a traditional hop schedule converted to a hop-stand schedule.

you mean all of the hops at flameout? i made 3 pale ales recently that had 20 ibu at 60 min and all the rest at flameout. i used 5 oz of amarillo hops in one of them, just tasted it yesterday, it's still carbing up and green but very good.

 

[McCuckerson]

you mean all of the hops at flameout? i made 3 pale ales recently that had 20 ibu at 60 min and all the rest at flameout. i used 5 oz of amarillo hops in one of them, just tasted it yesterday, it's still carbing up and green but very good.

Have we decided on the temp yet?

 

[eastoak]

Have we decided on the temp yet?

i have not measured the temp but i dump the hops in right at flame out or within a few minutes. i have not experimented with recirculating until i have a lower temp in the kettle then adding the hops but i will. like i said the all amarillo beer tastes very promising so far.

 

[TAK]

Clarity and cold break were only mentioned back on page 4 or so, but I posed the same question recently and this is some info I got:

According to Tom Ayer;
Quote:
Cold break is the precipitation or flocculation of mostly proteins, but also tannins and hop matter, that form when chilling wort rapidly. When wort is chilled very rapidly cold break will begin to form at around 140F.

 

[wyobrewer1]

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

Read this article.

 

[McCuckerson]

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

Read this article.

Thanks Wyo, that article was great!

 

[Glynn]

Great article. I would really like to rid dry hopping from some of my routine and this seems like a great way to go

 

[logdrum]

Should the whirlpool go clockwise or counter-clockwise?

 

[wyobrewer1]

Should the whirlpool go clockwise or counter-clockwise?

Depends on which hemisphere you live in.