Yeast/procedure for a hybrid lager

[dorklord]

I want to make a Bock, but I don't have the ability to 'lager' it in bulk at the moment.

Right now, the best idea I've got is to use an ale yeast at the lowest end of its range, let it go for a nice 3-4 weeks in primary, the bottle it, let it carbonate, and 'bottle lager' (leave the bottles in the fridge for as long as possible before drinking).

I'm wondering what a good recommendation for a yeast would be, temperature range, and then I'm wondering if I should carbonate at the same, low temperature as fermentation (my basement is cold, I can basically keep this stuff at anything between the low 50s F and 70 F for extended periods) or if I should keep it up around 70 for 3 weeks to carbonate.

Any tips?

 

[DKershner]

2112 California Lager. I like what it does to beers and it would be closer to what you want to achieve than Kolsch yeast.

That being said, Bock is a beer to its own with its own yeast properties and of course this wont match exactly.

I am interested in what you would use for fermentables.

 

[DKershner]

Oh, and I would ferment as near to 60 as you can get it.

Carb at 72 and then keep it cool (40F, or as close as you can get) until you are ready to drink.

 

[dorklord]

I was hoping to use a dry yeast. I know I've heard various people say that they've used S-05, Nottingham, or something, at the low end of their ranges (or even below their published 'ranges' and had a good result.

 

[DKershner]

I was hoping to use a dry yeast. I know I've heard various people say that they've used S-05, Nottingham, or something, at the low end of their ranges (or even below their published 'ranges' and had a good result.

Well, you could, but the results would be better with either lager or hybrid yeast. Make sure to pitch a bunch if you are going lower than range and keep a good eye on your gravity.

 

[Yooper]

Well, you could, but the results would be better with either lager or hybrid yeast. Make sure to pitch a bunch if you are going lower than range and keep a good eye on your gravity.

I don't think that's necessarily so. California lager yeast (2112) can be fruity, while nottingham at 59 degrees is very lager-like and "clean". That would work just fine!

 

[DKershner]

I don't think that's necessarily so. California lager yeast (2112) can be fruity, while nottingham at 59 degrees is very lager-like and "clean". That would work just fine!

I havent had good success with Notty down there, although with their recent problems it could've been due to anything. Also, when creating a Bock Notty's attenuation seems a little high for the purpose, whereas a 2112 will leave a little more behind.

I also haven't gotten anything with 2112 that I would call fruity, not with 60F temps anyway.

Anyway, my buddy Matt made an Oktoberfest Ale awhile back, and while it tasted great, you could tell he used ale yeast. I have also recently made several beers that are originally lagers but used ale yeast. I fermented low to be sure. I personally have had more of a lager-like characteristic from a normally fermented Cali-yeast than a low-fermented Ale yeast.

All this being said, this is a GF beer and yeast is the least of problems.

 

[dorklord]

I havent had good success with Notty down there, although with their recent problems it could've been due to anything. Also, when creating a Bock Notty's attenuation seems a little high for the purpose, whereas a 2112 will leave a little more behind.

I also haven't gotten anything with 2112 that I would call fruity, not with 60F temps anyway.

Anyway, my buddy Matt made an Oktoberfest Ale awhile back, and while it tasted great, you could tell he used ale yeast. I have also recently made several beers that are originally lagers but used ale yeast. I fermented low to be sure. I personally have had more of a lager-like characteristic from a normally fermented Cali-yeast than a low-fermented Ale yeast.

All this being said, this is a GF beer and yeast is the least of problems.

So, I take it there is no dry 'california common' or hybrid-type lager yeast?

Given the choices in dry yeasts, what sounds best?

My current 'plan of action' is going to be to use Notty and keep it at 55 for 3 weeks, bottle, store the bottles at 70 or so for 3 weeks, then put them on the basement floor, so probably 55 F, until I put them in the fridge and TRY to leave them in the fridge for 3 weeks or longer before drinking...

Unless someone suggests something 'better', or I find a nice, free fridge on craigslist and convince my wife we need a lagerator.

 

[emjay]

I guess the best you can do is go with a lager yeast. You may not be able to "lager" it after fermentation, but it's not uncommon to skip it anyways, and if you can ferment under 50° (especially the first week, and especially especially the first few days), then it should end up pretty clean-tasting with the majority of lager strains anyways.

This is the problem with dry yeasts... they offer very little variety, and when you want it for a specialized purpose - like you're doing right now - they simply don't have anything to fit the bill. Why you insist on sticking to dry yeast anyways? There are a bunch of styles that are useless to attempt with dry yeast even if you have a million dollars worth of equipment, and I just couldn't imagine restricting myself like that.

If it's because of price, bocks are already not exactly the cheapest beers to make (not to mention the time and care that needs to be put into them), and so I'd personally spend the extra $5 than have something that won't turn out as nicely.

HOWEVER, you weren't too clear on your temp-control capabilities. Between 50° and 70°? That doesn't tell me much. Why such a big discrepancy, and how long can you ferment close to 50? If the only thing stopping you from using a lager yeast is the inability to hold it near freezing for an extended period of time in order to lager it, it's not actually as important as one would naturally infer from the fact that both the yeast strains and the styles of beer made from them are ALSO called lagering. I mean, ultimately you would still produce a somewhat better bock if you COULD lager it. But even if you don't, as long as you can ferment it at a low enough temperature, a lager yeast will still give you a better and more authentic result than an ale or even hybrid yeast possibly could. If you can indeed keep it close enough to 50°, you might just be able to push it down low enough to ferment cleanly by covering it with a wet towel and blowing air across it with a fan, or put it in a Rubbermaid container with ice water for the first week, or any of a number of tricks to slightly push fermentation temps down a bit inexpensively.

 

[DKershner]

So, I take it there is no dry 'california common' or hybrid-type lager yeast?

Given the choices in dry yeasts, what sounds best?

My current 'plan of action' is going to be to use Notty and keep it at 55 for 3 weeks, bottle, store the bottles at 70 or so for 3 weeks, then put them on the basement floor, so probably 55 F, until I put them in the fridge and TRY to leave them in the fridge for 3 weeks or longer before drinking...

Unless someone suggests something 'better', or I find a nice, free fridge on craigslist and convince my wife we need a lagerator.

If you can keep it at 55, use lager yeast. At those temps you will have a better product than ale yeast. 34/70 would be a decent bet, it is a weihenstephan strain, bohemian lager I believe. Not bock yeast, or munich yeast, but pretty good.

And no, to my knowledge there are no hybrid dry yeasts. There are only like 15 yeasts total that are dry and most are copies of one another.

 

[dorklord]

I guess the best you can do is go with a lager yeast. You may not be able to "lager" it after fermentation, but it's not uncommon to skip it anyways, and if you can ferment under 50° (especially the first week, and especially especially the first few days), then it should end up pretty clean-tasting with the majority of lager strains anyways.

This is the problem with dry yeasts... they offer very little variety, and when you want it for a specialized purpose - like you're doing right now - they simply don't have anything to fit the bill. Why you insist on sticking to dry yeast anyways? There are a bunch of styles that are useless to attempt with dry yeast even if you have a million dollars worth of equipment, and I just couldn't imagine restricting myself like that.

If it's because of price, bocks are already not exactly the cheapest beers to make (not to mention the time and care that needs to be put into them), and so I'd personally spend the extra $5 than have something that won't turn out as nicely.

HOWEVER, you weren't too clear on your temp-control capabilities. Between 50° and 70°? That doesn't tell me much. Why such a big discrepancy, and how long can you ferment close to 50? If the only thing stopping you from using a lager yeast is the inability to hold it near freezing for an extended period of time in order to lager it, it's not actually as important as one would naturally infer from the fact that both the yeast strains and the styles of beer made from them are ALSO called lagering. I mean, ultimately you would still produce a somewhat better bock if you COULD lager it. But even if you don't, as long as you can ferment it at a low enough temperature, a lager yeast will still give you a better and more authentic result than an ale or even hybrid yeast possibly could. If you can indeed keep it close enough to 50°, you might just be able to push it down low enough to ferment cleanly by covering it with a wet towel and blowing air across it with a fan, or put it in a Rubbermaid container with ice water for the first week, or any of a number of tricks to slightly push fermentation temps down a bit inexpensively.

I'll try to tackle the questions in order here:
1) I'm planning to use dry yeast in order to produce a 100% gluten free beer.

2) My temp control abilities consist of using my basement and, if necessary, a swamp cooler. My 'fermentation room' usually stays right around 60, and I think that if I put the bucket on the cold floor and use a swamp-cooler type setup, it should be able to hold 55 virtually indefinitely. I currently have an electric heater going in the room to keep it at 65 for ale fermentation, so I believe I can keep a fermentation in there steady at any temperature between 55 and 70. I may be able to get it down to 50 for the first day or so, if I use a tote and ice, but that's not something I can sustain for a full ferment. I had trouble getting a cold-crash down below 55, but if I use a large tote and build up a freezer full of ice cubes, I think I could push it to 50 for a day or 2, mostly depending on how fast I go through the ice.

Obviously, it is optimal to make beers that I won't have to 'baby sit' for 3 weeks, which is why I was thinking of doing a hybrid. If I can just unplug the heater and let the room sit at 60 until everything is done...

If I have to check on it every day, add water to a water bath or ice, well, there's a much increased possibility that other things will get in the way, and if I end up having to stay late after work or run errands, the temp might wander up to 60.

 

[emjay]

50° temps are really only critical for the first few days. At least 4 would be great, though up to a week is better - the longer you can manage, the better. Flavor compounds are mostly created during the first days of fermentation, so if you have to keep it at 60° afterwards, it's not a big deal.

 

[dorklord]

Thanks for the help. I've got an ale in primary right now, and I was thinking I'll try cold-crashing it for at least a few days, as a test to see how cold I can keep an actual batch of beer.

If I can keep it at 50 for a few days, I'll go ahead with a lager yeast plan. If I can't, well, I'll probably post up here with how cold I could keep it.