What's The Closest European Equivalent To American 2-Row Malt?

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Protos

Protos

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Gentlemen, what do you think is the closest European/British match to the typical American 2-Row Malt?
Is that Pale Ale Malt or Pilsner?

I've never brewed with American grains, so have no first-hand experience. When I brew hoppy American styles I don't dwell much on how to emulate the 2-Row in the recipe: I just use Pale Ale or Pale Ale+Pilsner mix, while the hops do the rest. But now I'm planning a strong, thin, low-IBU brew, where the difference gets important. And the recipe suggests exactly 2-Row Malt.
What's the optimal substitution to it?
 
From what I've seen, there's kind of a "gap" in color/degree of kilning between typical pilsner malts and the plethora of euro pale ale malts. North American 2-Row (like Briess brewer's malt) is kilned to abt. 1.8L, which is closer to a typical pils malt than it is to the euro pale ale malts, but it's still a wee bit darker than most pils malts. And flavor-wise, I'd say 2-row is closer to Pils than it is to the euro pale ale malts.

That said, lots of american IPAs are brewed with malts like Golden Promise and Maris Otter.

If you want to replicate the plain old 2-row color-wise, you'll probably have to mix a couple of malts to get there.
 
Brilliant answer, VikeMan, thank you!
That's exactly what I wanted to know, whether American 2-Row Malt is closer to Pale or to Pilsner!

So, European Pilsners of darker shades could probably be the closest approximation. The darkest one I've laid my hands on is Viking Pilsner from Finland. I remember it to be lighter than any Pale Ale but darker than the rest of European Pilsners I've seen.
 
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SanPancho said:
Viking makes an extra pale that is essentially US two row
Click to expand...

I don't see any Viking malts called "extra pale." Are you talking about Viking Pale Ale Malt? That's 4-7 EBC, which translates to 2.1-3.2 L, which is quite a bit darker than Briess 2-row.

Viking's Pilsner Malt is 3.3-4.3 EBC, or 1.8 to 2.2 L.
 
In my experience, Viking Pale Ale is darker and blander than any English, German or Belgian Pale Ale Malts I've tried. Can't say I like it too much. I use it for my least-important brews (like experimental or for trying new hops or yeasts).
Never heard of Viking Extra Pale Malt. In their Malt Handbook, they list certain "Pilsner Zero Malt" besides the regular Pilsner, and both are the same colour. The difference is in some gene that "Zero Pils" lacks. Never seen it in brewstores.
Viking regular Pilsner is a good malt. Although less flavourful than German or Belgian Pilsners, it's still good. It's cheaper and darker than any other Pilsner I know of. Will substitute it for 2-Row.
 
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Probably, that's some of Viking's brands made (or grown?) specifically for the US market.
No Xtra Pale on Viking's website or in European Stores.
That may indeed be a true American 2-Row.
Marketed exclusively in America and probably grown in America.
 
I’ve used the Viking 2-row Xtra Pale quite a bit. It, to me, seems to be every bit a standard pale 2-row. Morebeer’s description says it was developed through the cooperation of Viking with Morebeer Pro, which markets to commercial breweries. It may very well be an American 2-row.
 
interesting. under "Origen" it says Europe, but im guessing thats just in reference to Viking as a whole. kinda strange they'd make something specifically for the US, but i guess if they're getting it grown and malted here then its not really such a big deal given the size of the US market.
 
Protos said:
Gentlemen, what do you think is the closest European/British match to the typical American 2-Row Malt?
Is that Pale Ale Malt or Pilsner?

I've never brewed with American grains, so have no first-hand experience. When I brew hoppy American styles I don't dwell much on how to emulate the 2-Row in the recipe: I just use Pale Ale or Pale Ale+Pilsner mix, while the hops do the rest. But now I'm planning a strong, thin, low-IBU brew, where the difference gets important. And the recipe suggests exactly 2-Row Malt.
What's the optimal substitution to it?
Click to expand...

Protos, in my experience all of the European malts have more flavor than North American malts. VikeMan has given good information on color. I think Weyerman pale malt, most any pilsner malt, or a UK lager malt would be acceptable substitutes as long as you don't mind have a little extra flavor.
 
you have a dilemma sir. pilsner will definitely not be similar to the typical US two row in the beer you describe. it will end up a weird super pils, with that cracker tasting pils flavor, which i'm guessing is not the flavor profile intended. if you dont have easy access to US two row i'd try lager malt from the UK, and barring that, i'd go with the lightest pale ale type malt you can get from euroland.
 
SanPancho said:
a weird super pils, with that cracker tasting pils flavor, which i'm guessing is not the flavor profile intended
Click to expand...
It is :)
I'm brewing exactly a Super Pils. A dreaded Olde English 800 clone, to be exact (please don't ridicule me for that, LOL). I've tasted it once in US and liked it's slight corny/grainy sweetness atop of a healthy alcoholic background. I wasn't a homebrewer at the time, though. Now I want to recreate the experience.

So, along with 30% of Flaked Corn I need some least-flavourful and darker-shade Pilsner Malt. Viking Pilsner ticks all the boxes, it seems.

An English Lager Malt looks like an interesting option too. I don't know it well, unfortunately. I brew lot of Lagers, but never tried brewing them of English malt, it's always German or Scandinavian Lager Malts that I use.
 
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I find those exBEERiments (most of them) deeply depressing. Because 99% of time they come to the same conclusion: NOTHING MATTERS, as their test panel is rarely able to discern any differencies in ingredients and process anyway.

This time it's no exception. The results imply that whatever Grain I choose, that wouldn't matter at all.

Well, that may be true. But knowing that strips the brewing process of much of its fun! That's why I generally avoid reading Brülosophy.
 
Protos said:
I find those exBEERiments (most of them) deeply depressing. Because 99% of time they come to the same conclusion: NOTHING MATTERS,
Click to expand...
Some people are heavily invested in the idea that expensive equipment and complicated techniques make a difference and then its hard to accept when someone blows a hole in their reality. Somethings matter a great deal, some things not so much.
If you want to replicate the flavor of the high ABV version of Old English Malt Liquor, I would suggest using 6 row and 2 row combined with the corn. The 6 row, corn and high alcohol note will diminish the flavor contribution of the pale or pilsner 2 row, so it probably won't matter much what you choose.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/american-malt-liquor/
 
@Miraculix, it's too flavourful, I think. As far as I remember OE800, it was definitely sweetish (which I liked) but had little to none malt aroma. MO Low Colour would probably impart too much of it.
 
Protos said:
It is :)
I'm brewing exactly a Super Pils. A dreaded Olde English 800 clone, to be exact (please don't ridicule me for that, LOL). I've tasted it once in US and liked it's slight corny/grainy sweetness atop of a healthy alcoholic background. I wasn't a homebrewer at the time, though. Now I want to recreate the experience.

So, along with 30% of Flaked Corn I need some least-flavourful and darker-shade Pilsner Malt. Viking Pilsner ticks all the boxes, it seems.

An English Lager Malt looks like an interesting option too. I don't know it well, unfortunately. I brew lot of Lagers, but never tried brewing them of English malt, it's always German or Scandinavian Lager Malts that I use.
Click to expand...
Is 6 row malt available there? Beers brewed with 30% corn would typically use 6 row. Look up American Pre-Prohibition lager recipes. Sounds like what you are looking for.
 
@Madscientist, yes, I see their point in fighting "beer snobbery" and in just helping brewers to simplify the process. No doubts, they're doing a useful job. But when brewing is not a job but a hobby, some of those "brewing myths" are dear, so sometimes it's upsetting to see them busted.

Thanks for the link, that's exactly the recipe I'm planning to brew. I have no way to get me any 6-Row Malt, so what I'm trying is not to stray even further from the Recipe with the 2-Row part.

bwible said:
Is 6 row malt available there?
Click to expand...
Alas. No such thing as 6-Row Malt at this side of the globe. At least, in homebrewstores.
 
Protos said:
@Madscientist, yes, I see their point in fighting "beer snobbery" and in just helping brewers to simplify the process. No doubts, they're doing a useful job. But when brewing is not a job but a hobby, some of those "brewing myths" are dear, so sometimes it's upsetting to see them busted.

Thanks for the link, that's exactly the recipe I'm planning to brew. I have no way to get me any 6-Row Malt, so what I'm trying is not to stray even further from the Recipe with the 2-Row part.


Alas. No such thing as 6-Row Malt at this side of the globe. At least, in homebrewstores.
Click to expand...
I remember me trying to walk the same path back in the UK, when trying to replicate a historic Kentucky Common recipe. I do not remember what I ended up with as a 6-row replacement, but I think it was probably just MO extra pale. The beer was really good.... I know this does not help if you really want to replicate a certain taste.

I think back then, distillers malt was suggested as a legit 6-row replacement, if I remember correctly. Can you get that?
 
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Miraculix said:
I remember me trying to walk the same path back in the UK, when trying to replicate a historic Kentucky Common recipe. I do not remember what I ended up with as a 6-row replacement, but I think it was probably just MO extra pale. The beer was really good.... I know this does not help if you really want to replicate a certain taste.
Click to expand...
Yes, when I cloned Kentucky Common I too went with English Pale Ale. But there's much other flavours present in Common (beginning with the yeast), so a slight altering of the base malt won't probably be even noticeable.
With Malt Liquor, however, I need to be as exact as I could, because the style has zero strong flavours, zero hop aroma, very thin body. Which means, any wrong grain flavour, however weak it is, will pop instantly. And there's nothing to hide it behind.

Probably, Malt Liquor is not an ideal style to clone with no access to the original grains, but I'll try. At least I've got a very good Corn (Crisp Flaked): I loved everything I had brewed with a significant amount of it.
 
Protos said:
Yes, when I cloned Kentucky Common I too went with English Pale Ale. But there's much other flavours present in Common (beginning with the yeast), so a slight altering of the base malt won't probably be even noticeable.
With Malt Liquor, however, I need to be as exact as I could, because the style has zero strong flavours, zero hop aroma, very thin body. Which means, any wrong grain flavour, however weak it is, will pop instantly. And there's nothing to hide it behind.

Probably, Malt Liquor is not an ideal style to clone with no access to the original grains, but I'll try. At least I've got a very good Corn (Crisp Flaked): I loved everything I had brewed with a significant amount of it.
Click to expand...
Man that beer some horrible :D

But otherwise, I agree.

I wanna try this corn though ...
 
Try it, I think the secret ingredient in Crisp Corn is the total (really total) lack of oils, unlike in cheaper Corn Flakes I used before, which staled quickly and imparted weird flavours to my beers. IDK, maybe it's good not because of that, but it's good anyway.

I love me some adjuncts and boozy beers (I brew them often and have a fresh sizeable batch of Carlsberg Elefant lagering). I keep fond memories of gulping a 40-ounzer of OE800 in the USA. As I've learned now on brewing boards, it must have left quite a different impression. Probably, I just was tasting it in a wrong company 🤣
 
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Protos said:
Try it, I think the secret ingredient in Crisp Corn is the total (really total) lack of oils, unlike in cheaper Corn Flakes I used before, which staled quickly and imparted weird flavours to my beers. IDK, maybe it's good not because of that, but it's good anyway.

I love me some adjuncts and boozy beers (I brew them often and have a fresh sizeable batch of Carlsberg Elefant lagering). I keep fond memories of gulping a 40-ounzer of OE800 in the USA. As I've learned now on brewing boards, it must have left quite a different impression. Probably, I just was tasting it in a wrong company 🤣
Click to expand...
Elefant is my dad's favourite :D

I never liked it, but I actually didn't try it since decades. Will buy myself one, just to see where we are currently at:D.

I'm brewing mainly light adjunct beers atm using polenta in a cereal mash. A bit of a pain, but works. I'm still unsure if I could really tell which part of the flavour is coming from the corn, although I used it at a rate of 30% of the grist.
 
Protos said:
Try it, I think the secret ingredient in Crisp Corn is the total (really total) lack of oils, unlike in cheaper Corn Flakes I used before, which staled quickly and imparted weird flavours to my beers. IDK, maybe it's good not because of that, but it's good anyway.

I love me some adjuncts and boozy beers (I brew them often and have a fresh sizeable batch of Carlsberg Elefant lagering). I keep fond memories of gulping a 40-ounzer of OE800 in the USA. As I've learned now on brewing boards, it must have left quite a different impression. Probably, I just was tasting it in a wrong company 🤣
Click to expand...
Isn’t it funny how people always want what they don’t have? Here I am in America longing for a real English pub with authentic cask ale on handpumps and there you are overseas wanting 40 oz bottles of American malt liquor.
 
bwible said:
Isn’t it funny how people always want what they don’t have? Here I am in America longing for a real English pub with authentic cask ale on handpumps and there you are overseas wanting 40 oz bottles of American malt liquor.
Click to expand...
I am here in northern Gemany and trying to brew American standard lagers here :D


....just to prove that you are right.
 
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Miraculix said:
I'm still unsure if I could really tell which part of the flavour is coming from the corn, although I used it at a rate of 30% of the grist.
Click to expand...
In my experience, Corn adds a very subtle sweetness, which is hardly detectable per se, but gets quite noticeable when comparing to Rice or Sugar in a split batch (I did such a batch to pinpoint the difference in flavours between various adjuncts). I think, the more corn the better, but there's a caveat: corn may easily produce hangover-inducing fusels. Actually, my corny beers have been my only brews from which I've experienced that. I think, it depends more on the quality of Corn rather than on the brewing process. Using some brands of corn I was getting a slight Katzenjammer with just 9% of the grist, while with other brands didn't have anything like that even at 40%.

bwible said:
Isn’t it funny how people always want what they don’t have? Here I am in America longing for a real English pub with authentic cask ale on handpumps and there you are overseas wanting 40 oz bottles of American malt liquor.
Click to expand...
It's funny indeed!
Sure, it would be much easier to me to brew an English equivalent to OE800 - the famous Gold Label beer, and I've got all the authentic ingredients for it!
But I have already brewed it last year. They said, Gold Label was a beer for bums, same like OE800. In reality, after a year-long aging, it turned out to be one of the best beers I've ever brewed.
 
Protos said:
In my experience, Corn adds a very subtle sweetness, which is hardly detectable per se, but gets quite noticeable when comparing to Rice or Sugar in a split batch (I did such a batch to pinpoint the difference in flavours between various adjuncts). I think, the more corn the better, but there's a caveat: corn may easily produce hangover-inducing fusels. Actually, my corny beers have been my only brews from which I've experienced that. I think, it depends more on the quality of Corn rather than on the brewing process. Using some brands of corn I was getting a slight Katzenjammer with just 9% of the grist, while with other brands didn't have anything like that even at 40%.


It's funny indeed!
Sure, it would be much easier to me to brew an English equivalent to OE800 - the famous Gold Label beer, and I've got all the authentic ingredients for it!
But I have already brewed it last year. They said, Gold Label was a beer for bums, same like OE800. In reality, after a year-long aging, it turned out to be one of the best beers I've ever brewed.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t say its “for bums.” Read on Wikipedia how malt liquor here is usually made higher in alcohol than other beers and is usually advertised targeting young inner city minorities. It gets somewhat of a bad rep due to that. They’ve used celebrities like Billy Dee Williams to advertise it here.

I drink my share of macro brews in between homebrews so I’m not going to criticize what anybody else wants to brew or drink.
 
bwible said:
I wouldn’t say its “for bums.” Read on Wikipedia how malt liquor here is usually made higher in alcohol than other beers and is usually advertised targeting young inner city minorities. It gets somewhat of a bad rep due to that. They’ve used celebrities like Billy Dee Williams to advertise it here.

I drink my share of macro brews in between homebrews so I’m not going to criticize what anybody else wants to brew or drink.
Click to expand...
We want what we can't have easily!

On so many levels.... :D
 
I think, because of evident reasons, cheap strong beers in every country instantly fill the "bum niche", independently of manufacturer's initial intentions or marketing strategy. Searching for Malt Liquor recipes, I found an excellent article on exactly what you are saying. The article shows that "bums" and "minorities" are actually far from being the primary consumers of the style, but anyway, the style has got its bad rep.
Here, on HBT, the style is definitely stigmatized too. Just look at smart@ss replies to some requests for recipes... That's why, upon disclosing what I need a 2-Row equivalent for, I kindly asked to not ridicule me for my choise... Which nobody did anyway, that is nice :)
 
bwible said:
Isn’t it funny how people always want what they don’t have? Here I am in America longing for a real English pub with authentic cask ale on handpumps and there you are overseas wanting 40 oz bottles of American malt liquor.
Click to expand...
The true test of malt liquor is how it tastes, coming back up.😁
 

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