What is up with Winemakers superiority to brewers?

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If it really bothers you ... It's just another of those examples of that old addage: Opionions are like buttholes, everyone has one, and it usually stinks. Why do they come to the conclusions and develop the opinions they do? I don't know ... but they always seem to have an opinion, and that opinion seems to always cast themselves, and what they like in a good light. Sometimes, they feel a need to contrast it with something else ... it's just people. I can't change them, and I don't usually worry about them.

If I was strictly a beer maker, I wouldn't let his opinion affect what I liked to do. But I might want to make wine much like you do.

Personally, I like many types of wines, but I can't claim to be sophisticated about it at all. I know the difference between dry and sweet, sparkling and flat, red and white etc, but if you want someone to tell you the difference between years or give flower commentary about balance, bouquet, body weight, etc. I'm not your guy. I like wine, though.

I agree with Tom T. Hall here, too:

I like beer. I know the difference between light and dark, have a definite preference for dark, but will drink bud light if that's all that's there. I have a few brands I like, loved trying the local microbrews when I travelled (usually chose a beer because of an interesting name at those). But again, if you want someone who can give flowery poetry about the beer, or point out subtle differences in different batches, I'm not your guy.

I also like to make things. So when I got off the road and needed to settle down, I needed to start making things to occupy my mind and hands in idle times. What better to make than things I like the way I like wine or beer? Since it was blackberry season at the time I had that epiphany, what better to start with than blackberry wine. I love apples, and apple season made me think of cider. Beer is definitely in the queue. If someone wants to enjoy it with me, then great, I want to enjoy it with them. If someone doesn't like it, then tough, I don't care. I don't have the time to worry about pleasing them. I'm going to enjoy what I enjoy.
 
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Homercidal said:
Is the message from Patterson simply that he thinks putting down brewers, even in jest, will sell more books? What's in it for him or the hobby? Maybe he's just that ignorant? I can't believe it. Surely he has gained some amount of craft beer knowledge in his years of winemaking.

What is up with that?
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If he has them in a joke section, take them as they are and leave them as jokes. It's like Apple geeks poking at PC geeks. Or Honda riders making fun of Harley riders.

Just just plain fun and you gotta be able to laugh at yourself sometimes.
 
rniles said:
If he has them in a joke section, take them as they are and leave them as jokes. It's like Apple geeks poking at PC geeks. Or Honda riders making fun of Harley riders.

Just just plain fun and you gotta be able to laugh at yourself sometimes.
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I'm a great fan of poking fun at yourself. If it came with a wink and a smile I could agree. But in this case (to me) it not only comes off as arrogant and holier than thou, it's plain wrong in several instances.

I'm not sure it helps to put the book in a good light. As a casual winemaker (I'm only doing it because I know someone who would have let the grapes rot on the vine) I might be turned off by that attitude.

I'm also very aware that I could be considered a Beer Snob by people who choose their beer because it's on sale or because their father drank it (or because that beer had the funniest commercial that week). Fact is, I choose my beer based on what sounds good to me at that time. I know enough about craft beer to know what styles I don't like and what styles would taste best with my food (according to the winemaker book, any beer goes with any food. Because only WINE could adequately be paired with food in a meaningful way).

It's like the author has no knowledge of beer outside of the commercials he sees during the football games (Ooops, I mean the Westminster Kennel Club)

Quote:
If you’re an ale fan, you’ll probably like it just fine with a rib eye steak, filet of sole, or celery sticks and onion-soup dip. And if you’re in a lager mood, you won’t lose much sleep about whether it goes with fried chicken or Thai curry.

So there is only Ale and Lager? He broadly defines beer by it's two major yeast strains, not even mentioning that as funny as this supposed joke is, there are literally dozens of identifiable styles of beer. Naming the 2 yeast types does practically nothing for identifying flavors or other characteristics which would help in pairing a beer with fine dining (or a burger).

Error of omission.

He also points out to the requirement of an "...enormous wine education industry, full of beginner and advanced classes... to understand the terms well enough to properly enjoy wine.

Whereas with beer: beer involves familiarity with basic refrigerator operation; knowledge of bottle cap removal — by twisting and church key; ability to pour without (much) spilling; and a knack for locating your own mouth. Class dismissed.

Thank you, Sir, may I have another! This passage is not only poking fun at the neanderthal beer drinkers, but is scary enough to prevent any casual wine drinker from ever wanting to attend an event where the slightest misstep could cause them to tumble several rungs down the social ladder!
 
mattd2 said:
The only way to be more superiour to you AC is to do something illegal in the USA :D
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Since I ferment in my basement I have a hard time looking down on anybody. Mostly I would have to look up. Also I find that beer brewing (not to be confused with malting and farming) all takes place at the boil, but wine making (again not to be confused with farming) takes place all through fermentation.

I find each has its own challenges. My biggest problem is I expect a flavor X get a great drink with flavor Y and everyone goes 'that's pretty good' and I'm like "but it is not what I expected"
 
Home winemaking is a ****ing joke. All the skill in winemaking is growing the grapes.
 
One point about wine is that there is such a huge difference between good and poor wine (leaving aside faults and infections). With beer made from mashed grain, once you have the hang of it you are pretty much guaranteed a nice drink unless you try to trick it up, but its much easier to make a poor wine even with a lot of experience. Especially with white wine the process is very straight forward, just press the juice and ferment, but there is a lot of variation in the final product.
 
The book has the words "for dummies" in the title and this is getting to you? Please tell me this is a legal download at least.
 
SwampassJ said:
The book has the words "for dummies" in the title and this is getting to you? Please tell me this is a legal download at least.
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What does the title have to do with it? I have read the Homebrewing for Dummies and thought it was a very good book for homebrewers of any level.

Interestingly, a lady at work brought in her book on winemaking. It's probably a 15 page pamphlet and I found it had more useful information on getting started.

I'd like to tell you it's a legal download, but all I can say is I'm glad I didn't waste my money on this. The title should have been, almost everything you need to know to become a pretentious home winemaker.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Gosh, I got involved in this hobby under the pretense of someday geting pretentious...
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I didn't say you did, or anybody else on this forum. My comment was regarding the tone of the book. Have you read it? Instead of the basics of making all kinds of wines at home, it really seems like it's written for people who want to start their own winery so their friends can be jealous.

From the skimming I did, it looks like it barely touches on anything other than the grape wine process. It didn't seem to get too in depth about the processes.

Maybe I should skim through it again today if I have time. It just seemed like the first time I read it he spent a lot of time talking about wines I'd never heard of (odd considering the book is for dummies, so you'd think he would explain it in a childlike fashion for people like me).
 
Oh gosh Homercidal, I was trying hard to make people laugh and failed miserably. I have a quirky (often moronic) sense of humor. I wasn't trying to imply anyone said anything in this thread I took any umbrage to.

In seriousness, the fact that he posted those jokes in a WINEMAKER's book leads me to believe he did intend some edge to it. If he was just trying to be funny he would have told those jokes amongst beer brewers and gave a couple friendly elbows to the ribs and a few "nah Im just teasing"ings. Yknow? Basically I more or less agree with you.
 
WIP said:
I didn't read the whole thread, but here is my take on it.

I am a professional winemaker. Making good wine is extremely difficult compared to beer. Just choosing when to harvest your grapes is more difficult than making beer. Then you add in farming, actually making the wine, aging it, and blending it.
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My French wife and I got into a heated argument about this when I told her "that on a homebrewing or wine making level wine is much easier than beer". The average home wine maker basically buys grape juice and adds yeast, waits a while and he has cheap wine. But on the professional "start to finish" level I'd agree that wine is more complicated.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Oh gosh Homercidal, I was trying hard to make people laugh and failed miserably. I have a quirky (often moronic) sense of humor. I wasn't trying to imply anyone said anything in this thread I took any umbrage to.

In seriousness, the fact that he posted those jokes in a WINEMAKER's book leads me to believe he did intend some edge to it. If he was just trying to be funny he would have told those jokes amongst beer brewers and gave a couple friendly elbows to the ribs and a few "nah Im just teasing"ings. Yknow? Basically I more or less agree with you.
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Maybe I need to cut back on the coffee in the mornings. All I was looking for with this thread was an informed discussion on the jokes, and how it relates to the perceptions of brewers and winemakers.

I know more than a couple of people who make their own wine and have for years. None of them could be accused of having a snob image. Far from it. Generally they are as funloving and down to earth as anyone I know who brews.

Maybe I got caught off guard by the tone of the book. I thought wine snobbery was relegated to the upper class elite. I didn't expect to see it in such force in a book on basic winemaking. Frankly, I had hoped to see more information on table wines or country wines. Most of the book seemed geared towards high end expensive varieties.
 
corkybstewart said:
My French wife and I got into a heated argument about this when I told her "that on a homebrewing or wine making level wine is much easier than beer". The average home wine maker basically buys grape juice and adds yeast, waits a while and he has cheap wine. But on the professional "start to finish" level I'd agree that wine is more complicated.
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How so? I'd like to learn more. The quick glance at the book showed references to expensive wines, but in the end it all seemed like your best shot was having superior grapes, and nothing in the world could save you otherwise.
 
Been making beer for almost 6 years, just started making wine this summer. as a process i find wine to be profoundly easier. 6g of wine takes me 2-3 hours start to finish on the 1st day(all work involved leading up to yeast pitch including pressing my fruit) 5-6g of beer is an 8 hour day start to finish. the problem is there is no real way to compair. other than pitching the yeast the processes differ so much its not fair for anyone to say one is easier than the other. groing all ingredients for either beer or wine only ensures fressness. b oth are subject to the fancy of mother nature. yes barley is new plant each year same factors apply as with fruit that control proteins and such.

In the end ease is in the eye of the maker. for me and my life at the moment wine is way easier because of the set it and forget it factor. I have been able to squeeze 2 wine making sessions in where i cannot even consider beer. I am sure true professionals on either spectrum will not point fingers at each other and say a single bad word. It takes dedication and skill and knowledge and either is easily f ed up.
 
I remember when I was working as a chief; I saw my job as feeding shallow people that could afford good ingredients, and didn’t even realize what they were eating half the time. The executive chief would give us amazing pieces of meat, that you would have to be a real fool to f**** them up. I mean really, the true art form is in making something amazing from the normal cheap ingredients. Look at any amazing chief and they revel on the common foods, they travel and spend most of there time eating in markets, and just what normal people eat. That is where ingenuity is, the guy that invented menudo, the sausage makers, these people are the real artist the one who take a bland ingredient and make something spectacular with it.

I have always seen beer in this respect. Grapes are already good as it is; it is hard to mess that up (though possible). You can really just squeeze grapes and get something drinkable at the bare minimum. Barely is really a nasty little grain when you look at it. It is not very suited for bread, takes a lot of work to harvest, and is really used to feed cows more than anything (besides beer). The process and genius it took to actually make beer to me is amazing. I always have more respect for a chief who makes a good head cheese, than one that can make a perfect steak. In my opinion this statement the author made is a sign of desperation steaming from the author’s ignorance.
 
It almost sounds to me like you are wanting to argue with someone who is not on the board. But taking it as it is, thinking that you want a discussion on whether or not it is humor, and if it is, why it would be included ...

One thing I notice about humor is that it often PURPOSEFULLY omits facts and distorts some facets or associations to try to bring out a chuckle. In many variations of humor, there is just enough truth in it to draw an identification, then make a sharp turn ... that's what makes it funny to some. (Think about it, can you tell me there are NOT a lot of people who basically pour beer without too much spillage, and drink ... class dismissed? Can you not find people fitting stereotypes around wine where they have to sniff, swirl, swish, etc.? Is the contrast not at least somewhat humorous?) When joking with my daughters as they were growing up, I would often purposefully misunderstand what they said, or take the wrong meaning of a word which changed the sentence ... it made for an opportunity to joke with them. I knew my audience there, and knew it would be fun with them. Of course I had to make myself look dense to joke like that, but it was funny with my audience.

With a particular ethnic group I grew up around, a grand method of joking was to keep a completely straight face, and see how big of a yarn you could spin and get the person to believe it. It was funny when the person believed it. As I understand, a good amount of Native American history in the textbooks is complete BS specifically because of this type of humor.

A lot of humor can be attributed to ignorance. Sometimes the ignorance is real, and sometimes it is feigned, and sometimes, I'm not sure which it is. When people on the west coast make jokes about people in the heartland, and play on stereotypes, of course their jokes don't accurately represent people there. Is the ignorance real? or is it feigned just so they can make a joke because it is funny to their audience? Maybe it is both, it probably depends on who is making the joke.

Sometimes, I see attempts to manipulate disguised as humor. One place I see this used is someone trying to "ridicule into submission" which I see happening most often with political discussions. That way, when it doesn't go over quite the way the joker thought, he can always just say "I was just joking." Everyone there knows that was not what was really being tried, but it gives the person a way out when people don't just go along with him poking fun at their position.

So I read the examples you posted, and I have no emotional investment in the book, nor in winemaking or brewing. I see it as him purposefully playing on stereotypes. He probably doesn't believe the stereotypes himself, but the stereotypes have enough truth to bring some identifying mental image in his audience, so with them, he thinks it is funny. Probably many in his audience also think it is funny. I think if I read it, I would probably get a chuckle out of it, and when I finished, I wouldn't really think it described beer makers or wine makers, and really wouldn't expect anyone reading it to think it did so. It does play on the same thought and stereotypes as is the source of the old addage "Champagne tastes on a beer budget." It would just be a form of humor, and one I wouldn't expect to be offensive with most people.

It's not showing ignorance so much as it is just a type of humor. That's my take on it.
 
Homercidal said:
How so? I'd like to learn more. The quick glance at the book showed references to expensive wines, but in the end it all seemed like your best shot was having superior grapes, and nothing in the world could save you otherwise.
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As said before growing grapes takes a lot of effort-vines need to be pruned constantly to maximize grape production, lots of pest control issues. Then there's the harvest, pressing and fermentation. Then the finings or filtration, racking to barrels for aging, etc. Then when it;'s all done many wines are blended.
For our 20th anniversary we had a party in my wife's village in France. We visited several wineries to choose wine for our party, and tasted dozens of different wines(tough job but it had to be done). In the end we chose 3 wines we liked at a friends winery-one from grapes grown on the hill aged in oak, and the other two came from a batch of grapes grown on the slope near the river, a much more robust wine in general.. He had half that batch in oak, half in chestnut so he blended the three wines to make a truly magnificent wine. This is pretty much out of the scope of practice for 95% of people who make wine at home.
 
If it makes you feel better, though, I found this little gem where I suppose a sake/beer maker is looking down on wine makers:

"Refined." Now that ought to tell the reader something. IT'S NOT
SIMPLE. You want simple; make wine. Get used to it. All grain beer brewing is
not simple either, but if you want to do that you do what it takes.

Source: http://www.designerinlight.com/eckhardt-sake.pdf

Is he serious? Joking? Is it revealing an underlying attitude? Is it necessary to take that tone in the recipe? Should I care?
 
SteveHoward said:
It almost sounds to me like you are wanting to argue with someone who is not on the board. But taking it as it is, thinking that you want a discussion on whether or not it is humor, and if it is, why it would be included ...

One thing I notice about humor is that it often PURPOSEFULLY omits facts and distorts some facets or associations to try to bring out a chuckle. In many variations of humor, there is just enough truth in it to draw an identification, then make a sharp turn ... that's what makes it funny to some. (Think about it, can you tell me there are NOT a lot of people who basically pour beer without too much spillage, and drink ... class dismissed? Can you not find people fitting stereotypes around wine where they have to sniff, swirl, swish, etc.? Is the contrast not at least somewhat humorous?) When joking with my daughters as they were growing up, I would often purposefully misunderstand what they said, or take the wrong meaning of a word which changed the sentence ... it made for an opportunity to joke with them. I knew my audience there, and knew it would be fun with them. Of course I had to make myself look dense to joke like that, but it was funny with my audience.

With a particular ethnic group I grew up around, a grand method of joking was to keep a completely straight face, and see how big of a yarn you could spin and get the person to believe it. It was funny when the person believed it. As I understand, a good amount of Native American history in the textbooks is complete BS specifically because of this type of humor.

A lot of humor can be attributed to ignorance. Sometimes the ignorance is real, and sometimes it is feigned, and sometimes, I'm not sure which it is. When people on the west coast make jokes about people in the heartland, and play on stereotypes, of course their jokes don't accurately represent people there. Is the ignorance real? or is it feigned just so they can make a joke because it is funny to their audience? Maybe it is both, it probably depends on who is making the joke.

Sometimes, I see attempts to manipulate disguised as humor. One place I see this used is someone trying to "ridicule into submission" which I see happening most often with political discussions. That way, when it doesn't go over quite the way the joker thought, he can always just say "I was just joking." Everyone there knows that was not what was really being tried, but it gives the person a way out when people don't just go along with him poking fun at their position.

So I read the examples you posted, and I have no emotional investment in the book, nor in winemaking or brewing. I see it as him purposefully playing on stereotypes. He probably doesn't believe the stereotypes himself, but the stereotypes have enough truth to bring some identifying mental image in his audience, so with them, he thinks it is funny. Probably many in his audience also think it is funny. I think if I read it, I would probably get a chuckle out of it, and when I finished, I wouldn't really think it described beer makers or wine makers, and really wouldn't expect anyone reading it to think it did so. It does play on the same thought and stereotypes as is the source of the old addage "Champagne tastes on a beer budget." It would just be a form of humor, and one I wouldn't expect to be offensive with most people.

It's not showing ignorance so much as it is just a type of humor. That's my take on it.
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i like watching people get hurt on youtube. thats a kind of humor right?
 
rycov said:
i like watching people get hurt on youtube. thats a kind of humor right?
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It's a type of humor, yes. It's not one I find enjoyable. You can add it to the list of types of humor if you want, but I don't see the example jokes about beer makers being analagous to jackass videos.

I'm not sure what kind of response you want from me beyond that. Since we're talking about people getting hurt, maybe that old snickers commercial where the trainer runs on the field and asks the receiver if he's hurt and he says "It hurts me when they boo?"
 
SteveHoward, you may have a ring of truth there. I accept the fact that there are many humourous qualities in the stereotypical homebrewer. I don't think that the choice of "jokes" given in the book hit on any of them.

Fact is, the person likely to pick up a book entitled, "Winemaking for Dummies" is likely going to be the average Joe who has some grapes or other fruit available and likes a decent low-priced wine. Maybe he's a person who just HAS to have another hobby. Yet the book's tone is set for a completely different person.

Seeing that section in the chapter list was a bit exciting. I thought, "Here we go! I can compare the differences in the process of making wine with the already known process of making beer!" That would be very helpful, I think, to a person like me.

Imagine my disappointment to find it an unfunny poke at ignorant redneck fratboy types (ironic considering the amount of ignorance about brewers and craft beer enthusiasts).

If the comparison was made between wine drinkers and BMC drinkers, then at least some of the jokes would be understandable and perhaps even funny. Hell, if the jokes were presented in a better fashion, some of them might have been at least chuckle inducing.

You are right. My first impulse was to hunt down the author and demand an apology! ;) But since I couldn't find his email address, and I'm too lazy to sign up for a winemaking forum and start my diatribe there, I defaulted to posting here.

In seriousness, the reason I posted here was to get a decent discussion going on the "actual" differences, or for possible reasons a winemaker might present such a series of bad jokes in a winemaker's book, when there is real potential for the readers to form a bond with brewers.

Because I suspect that there is a lot more in common between the two, than there are differences.

In a way, maybe I'm put out by the equating home brewers to ignorant drunken fratboy rednecks simply because we both enjoy a beverage called "BEER". I think jokes could have been made that would have been both funnier and also more constructive.

How about a discussion on whether wine actually IS a better product than beer?
 
lol i like your enthusiasm homer, however how can you have a discussion whether or not whine actually is a better product. it will be discussion based on opinion purely and therefore there can be no wrong answer(well at east not if they agree with me :) ).
 
tchuklobrau said:
lol i like your enthusiasm homer, however how can you have a discussion whether or not whine actually is a better product. it will be discussion based on opinion purely and therefore there can be no wrong answer(well at east not if they agree with me :) ).
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It's no fair jumping through the finish line without running the race!
 
SwampassJ said:
speaking of long winded, did homer get banned from the debate section? He has some built up angst oozing out.
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haha. he does seem a little more on edge than usual. (like he said, time of month. i had mine last week.... i'm still spotting here and there :drunk:)
 
wine-for-classy-people-sign-1719__85391_zoom.jpg
 
The wine industry has made it's reputation off of being more holier than thou. French wines were all the rage until California was able to figure it out. It's always been about picking up on the terroir and the hidden and forward notes of the wine. When was the last time you were asked if you could tell your malt was grown in Wisconsin during a drought? I often find "wine people" a little closed minded compared to brewers, alot of wine drinkers wouldn't consider country wines or Am-French hybrids good enough to drink since they're not rated by Robert Parker. Maybe it's our desire to be European? Sommelier's have been around forever, but it's only recently that you can find the same in the beer industry.
To me brewers are much more creative and more cutting edge, where as wine makers are more reserved and traditional. Since it's wine making for dummies, I'm sure they're not dealing with the agricultural side of things, he's just being a punk.
 
I think part of it is that wine has inherited the French attitude.
I remember it well when the California vintners "invaded" French wine competition in the early 1970's. Oooohh lot's of angry Frenchmen.
I think too, the fact that you can spend $50 to $100 on a bottle of wine but would be hard pressed to find a similar bottle beer over about $15 adds to the tendency toward exclusivity.
This is all quite different than the relative intricacies of winemaking verses brewing, which I think have shown themselves to be brothers (er, sisters?).
 
Oh, wait. So this is all about wine being a French entity! No wonder it irks me so!

I'm basically a German by blood ancestry. Therefore it's only natural that I fight against something that is so french.

There was once a study done on how music can affect people's moods. During the study they placed all French wines on one side of an aisle, and on the other, German wines.

They discovered that when they played French music over the PA, more people purchased French wine.

But they found that when they played German music over the loudspeakers, more people attacked the French wine.
 

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