Welding questions

[Ohio-Ed]

Now that looks a lot better.

Your purge is great. Only thing missing that I can see is the hole for the gas line.

There is no hole. I didn't know if he had a separate gas line and as it turned out, he didn't. I told him today that for the next ones I'd suggest he put a hole in the coffee can instead of trying to push gas through the coupling.

I'm just repeating to him what you guys have taught me here... And I think he is finally coming around.

Thanks again,
Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Now that's what we are talking about

But WOW he purged the whole keg???


Dominus Vobiscum

Swagman

Thanks, I think he is getting it...

He didn't purge the whole keg. I took him the ghetto coffee can setup in the picture in post #156. He put it over the hole in the keg and put gas through the coupling from the outside.

I think you guys here on HBT have taught him how to do it... I'm hoping that in the end, folks in the area that need kegs welded can have a source at a reasonable price.

Ed

 

[GreenMonti]

There is no hole. I didn't know if he had a separate gas line and as it turned out, he didn't. I told him today that for the next ones I'd suggest he put a hole in the coffee can instead of trying to push gas through the coupling.

I'm just repeating to him what you guys have taught me here... And I think he is finally coming around.

Thanks again,
Ed

Good thing you didn't put a hole in there. Though it is nothing a piece of tape wouldn't fix.

It sound like you are a good teacher. The weldor in question has never been exposed to this situation. That's obvious. It goes to show, when people pull that DARNED expierence card. I HATE IT! Years experience means nothing if you have lived your life in a 1-2 enviroment situation. Man....I hate the " I have been.......crap." If anything the years should have tought them that there is no 1 way to do anything.

Sorry for the rant. I am not saying that is how these guys are. Just venting a personal pet peve. You know, here you are showing a weldor how to do something. You have gone way above what should have been needed. After all, they are the ones with a shop. The owner knew, and didn't convey the needs OF your work to the weldor. In the end, you are getting somewhere. Kudos to you Ed. Cheers,

I really hope that you get, that type of work from them IF not better, if you have them do anything else. It does take discipline to be a good weldor.

Have a good night. That new work does look a whole lot better.

In your new pics, it almost looks like the old couplers are rusting. It that so or is that just the coloration on the inside of the coupler?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Good thing you didn't put a hole in there. Though it is nothing a piece of tape wouldn't fix.

It sound like you are a good teacher. The weldor in question has never been exposed to this situation. That's obvious. It goes to show, when people pull that DARNED expierence card. I HATE IT! Years experience means nothing if you have lived your life in a 1-2 enviroment situation. Man....I hate the " I have been.......crap." If anything the years should have tought them that there is no 1 way to do anything.

Sorry for the rant. I am not saying that is how these guys are. Just venting a personal pet peve. You know, here you are showing a weldor how to do something. You have gone way above what should have been needed. After all, they are the ones with a shop. The owner knew, and didn't convey the needs OF your work to the weldor. In the end, you are getting somewhere. Kudos to you Ed. Cheers,

I really hope that you get, that type of work from them IF not better, if you have them do anything else. It does take discipline to be a good weldor.

Have a good night. That new work does look a whole lot better.

In your new pics, it almost looks like the old couplers are rusting. It that so or is that just the coloration on the inside of the coupler?

I think it is just coloration.

I do feel like I (through you guys here), taught the weldor something on this. I feel pretty fortunate, because he is not getting rich on this job and it would be awful easy for him to have said it's not worth the effort. He really seems to be a good guy, willing to work at it to satisfy a customer. Looks like I'll be dropping the other two kegs off Monday... I'll post pictures when I get them back.

I do have another question... How do you keep the couplings straight as the weld cools. I pointed out to him that one of the first two he welded was not exactly straight. He told me today that it was tough because they move as they cool.

 

[GreenMonti]

I think it is just coloration.

I do feel like I (through you guys here), taught the weldor something on this. I feel pretty fortunate, because he is not getting rich on this job and it would be awful easy for him to have said it's not worth the effort. He really seems to be a good guy, willing to work at it to satisfy a customer. Looks like I'll be dropping the other two kegs off Monday... I'll post pictures when I get them back.

I do have another question... How do you keep the couplings straight as the weld cools. I pointed out to him that one of the first two he welded was not exactly straight. He told me today that it was tough because they move as they cool.

Tacking them in in the right order......one tack will negate the last. What I mean is, by tacking the coupler at opposite ends should take care of this. The same will need to be done when he tack welds the sides. At a min he should tack weld (with wire) North, South, East, and West. Any adjustment can be made if needed and then weld it up. I would also start in an area that doesn't have a tack, say north west. It could also be from welding to hot,(which does show) causing to much heat in the keg itself. The start and stops are the worst. Do the kegs look distorted any? I would just hit it with a rubber mallet. The coupler that is. This is another reason why I do the couplers the way I do.

Yes but, you are the mouth of all who have placed input. You have taken the time to learn what needs to be done. You have conveyed the needs very well to the hands that will do the work. When you get a TIG welder you will be farther ahead then most. You will then excell at it after some practice. Knowledge is forever.


Ed, did he weld the couplers in one direction? Meaning all the way around 1 way.

 

[beltbuckle]

Just getting setup for tig at the house,couldn`t I just use ducktape to seal the opening in the top of the keg, insert the hose and purge the whole keg or would this be a waste of gas?

Thanks Geoff

A welder's trick is to get some dry ice at the grocery store and put that in the keg before welding. The gas produced (CO2) by the dry ice melting will act as a shielding gas and effectively purge the inside of the vessel.

 

[Swagman]

Tacking them in in the right order......one tack will negate the last. What I mean is, by tacking the coupler at opposite ends should take care of this. The same will need to be done when he tack welds the sides. At a min he should tack weld (with wire) North, South, East, and West. Any adjustment can be made if needed and then weld it up. I would also start in an area that doesn't have a tack, say north west. It could also be from welding to hot,(which does show) causing to much heat in the keg itself. The start and stops are the worst. Do the kegs look distorted any? I would just hit it with a rubber mallet. The coupler that is. This is another reason why I do the couplers the way I do.

Yes but, you are the mouth of all who have placed input. You have taken the time to learn what needs to be done. You have conveyed the needs very well to the hands that will do the work. When you get a TIG welder you will be farther ahead then most. You will then excell at it after some practice. Knowledge is forever.


Ed, did he weld the couplers in one direction? Meaning all the way around 1 way.

+1 on the location of tacks. There one main fact items welded like to move.


I also do a series of tack's clock points. Even this sometimes putting in a pick-up tube it can be off a touch at the center hole of a false bottom. I use a length of pipe as pry when it needs reefed a bit to line up. That's another reason I like the turned down coupler's gives a lip to set on and a plus factor to the hole helps keep things going the right direction.

Just different ways around the Barn but gets the job done.

Glad things worked out now get the rig together and brew something, Throat getting dry from all this typing.

Merry Christmas God Bless you all

Dominus Vobiscum

Swagman

 

[GreenMonti]

Did you get those Kegs dropped off last week?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Did you get those Kegs dropped off last week?

I did... I called on Thursday and they were not ready... should see them this week.

I took the Mash Tun (the first one they welded) for its maiden voyage this weekend, all went perfect.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Got my kegs back today.

I picked them up on the way out with SWMBO, so I really didn't take time to look at them.
I was a bit disappointed when I got home and unloaded them... One of the 2" plugs in the couplings I had them weld is stuck. One of the plugs came out with fingers. The other was obviously screwed in too far when welded even though I told the guy at least 3 times, just a thread or two. I didn't spend much time at it but took a 12" adjustable that was handy and could not budge it. CRAP!

I will check them out tomorrow and post some pics of the results.

 

[GreenMonti]

Got my kegs back today.

I picked them up on the way out with SWMBO, so I really didn't take time to look at them.
I was a bit disappointed when I got home and unloaded them... One of the 2" plugs in the couplings I had them weld is stuck. One of the plugs came out with fingers. The other was obviously screwed in too far when welded even though I told the guy at least 3 times, just a thread or two. I didn't spend much time at it but took a 12" adjustable that was handy and could not budge it. CRAP!

I will check them out tomorrow and post some pics of the results.

I logged in yesterday just to ask you about this again. I thought the electric system had you a bit busy.

That's a bummer for sure on the plug. A real PITA with SS is it's inherent nature to seize. When I was welding in the food industry we would coat the fasteners with a food grade antiseize so when we welded them on we could get them back apart. This is a tuffy. IIRC just about every fastener I encountered that got seized I ruiend the threads getting it apart. SS it tuff but it is soft. They may be fixing this coupler for you as I don't think your gonna get it apart.


You might try an oil but, I think the two are pretty much welded together.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Do you think heat on the coupling will help?

 

[GreenMonti]

Do you think heat on the coupling will help?

It was my first thought.

I just can't say for sure. I have broke a hundred times more then I was succesfull at getting loose.

 

[kladue]

The only tricks I know that sometimes work are penetrating oil on the threads and hit the head of the plug with a hammer to break threads loose as you apply pressure with a wrench. Is the plug a solid or hollow type?, if hollow you might be able to cut top off and cut some relief grooves on inside with hacksaw blade and break plug sections out of the threads with a chisel without destroying the threads.

 

[Swagman]

It hurts more when you know better and do it to yourself.

I was welding a 1 inch coupler for a brewer that wasn't going to be used right away. It was to be plugged and I had the plug sitting on the bench. I finished the weld turn off everything and was thinking of something else reach down and threaded the plug and walked back to house. When I reached the house it hit me you big fat Dumbo. Walk straight back what I threaded with my fingers would not budge. Spent the next two hours drilling and with a hacksaw blade slowly cutting the plug out kicking myself all the time.

If the plug that's froze is not the solid type its a little better brass plug even better. A 1/2 coupler is going to like micro surgery. Center punch the plug and start with a small bit and increase the size each pass until you are above the threads. Take hacksaw blade and carefully cut groove just about to the threads. Do this several places on the clock and than take a punch and drive to the center. Just get one side away from the threads in the coupler it will fold into its self.

The welder should have know better:

Hope this might help

Dominus Vobiscum

Swagman

 

[Ohio-Ed]

It hurts more when you know better and do it to yourself.

I was welding a 1 inch coupler for a brewer that wasn't going to be used right away. It was to be plugged and I had the plug sitting on the bench. I finished the weld turn off everything and was thinking of something else reach down and threaded the plug and walked back to house. When I reached the house it hit me you big fat Dumbo. Walk straight back what I threaded with my fingers would not budge. Spent the next two hours drilling and with a hacksaw blade slowly cutting the plug out kicking myself all the time.

If the plug that's froze is not the solid type its a little better brass plug even better. A 1/2 coupler is going to like micro surgery. Center punch the plug and start with a small bit and increase the size each pass until you are above the threads. Take hacksaw blade and carefully cut groove just about to the threads. Do this several places on the clock and than take a punch and drive to the center. Just get one side away from the threads in the coupler it will fold into its self.

The welder should have know better:

Hope this might help

Dominus Vobiscum

Swagman

The plug is 2" diameter... Dang, iys gonna take some work if I have to cut it out. But that is better than ruining the threads in the coupling.

So you think I should not even try the heat and turn it with a wrench idea?

Ed

 

[RonRock]

Do you have an Oxy Acetylene Torch? If so I would try heat first. It will get things hot faster than a Mapp or Propane gas torch. You will need to get the coupler hot fast so that it expands before the plug does. I'd try it with an Oxy/Acet but as others have said, my experience also is that once things are that stuck it's over.

I'd say with a 2" plug it will be easier to work with. At least you have some room to work.

I'll also admit that my experience with stainless is minimal, so the others will have better advice. Just saying what I'd do.

Might even consider taking it to the weldor, let him deal with it.

Good luck.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

SUCCESS!!!

Thanks guys, all your advise saved my @ss!


SWMBO, informed me we have a b-day party to attend but I wanted to post a quick update. I'll follow up with more details and some pics.

I know I could have taken this back to the welder and dumped HIS problem back in his lap. But to be honest... my fear is that he would just do the same thing I originally though of and just use a cheater bar to twist it out. And I am convinced this would ruin the threads on the coupling, then we'd be back to getting another coupling and welding again.

So I decided to see what I could do...

I decided, I would not apply any more pressure than I could by hand with a 12" adjustable wrench... A MAPP gas torch and 12" wrench was a no-go. Didn't budge.

So I cut the plug off leaving about 2 threads outside the coupling.
Then I took a sawzall and cut 90% of the way through what was left of the plug across the threads in about eight places. I cut the rest of the way to just touching the threads with a hack saw blade.

I bent a section inward with a cold chisel and worked it back and forth until it broke out. The plug then came right out.

So, other than loosing a plug I had planed to use to fill the coupling if I decided to direct fire the MLT or BK, and wasting about an hour... I'm back on plan.

I will get some pics of the welds later (after the #@!%$ b-day party).

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!!

Ed

 

[RonRock]

Cool........

 

[Ohio-Ed]

OK, As promised, some pics...

Here is a shot of the plug, as it started, and what I had to do to get it out:

If you're asking why I had a 2" coupling welded in, here is a shot of the reducer and element:

I like the large flat surface for mounting the element/box combo. More on that in another thread.

Thanks again for your advise about getting the plug out, I'm really glad I didn't destroy the threads in the coupling.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I picked up the last two kegs from the welder yesterday and I'm gonna post the last round of pictures. These two kegs had 5 couplings welded in each one. They each had a 2" coupling and 4, 1/2" couplings. They are not perfect, I sure would have liked to have Swagman or GreenMonti do these. However, they are done. And I think I did really well on the cost... He basically charged me $10 per coupling and he put the holes in the kegs (I supplied the couplings). Here are a bunch of pictures of the welds, inside and out.

 

[GreenMonti]

Ed,

Congrats on getting the plug out of the coupler. Doing the surgery like you did and others mentioned, I wouldn't have thought of. Well done.

It looks like he was trying real hard to make it look good. The welds are inconsistant. The guy needs to slow down.

So that's it. Your done with the welding of your kegs right?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

GreenMonti,

Kegs are done!

Well, I didn't have him weld couplings for a herms coil in the HLT like I planned. I was gonna add a herms coil just in case, but decided to hold up at the last minute.

Now I just have to decide on a stand. Being that this thing will be electric, I think the options are pretty wide open.

Thanks for all your help and guidance.

 

[GreenMonti]

GreenMonti,

Kegs are done!

Well, I didn't have him weld couplings for a herms coil in the HLT like I planned. I was gonna add a herms coil just in case, but decided to hold up at the last minute.

Now I just have to decide on a stand. Being that this thing will be electric, I think the options are pretty wide open.

Thanks for all your help and guidance.

Your very welcome for anything I may have added.

Are you hinting at doing a wood stand? You have that stick unit, you could weld up the stand yourself. Get some small rod and go for it.

Any reason why you backed out on the HERMS?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Your very welcome for anything I may have added.

Are you hinting at doing a wood stand? You have that stick unit, you could weld up the stand yourself. Get some small rod and go for it.

Any reason why you backed out on the HERMS?

I have thought about welding a stand and that may be it. But, I really don't know... Since I don't have to worry about fire, I can use anything that will hold up the weight, put up with a bit of heat and is easy to clean right?

I build a RIM's heater and I'm very happy with it. I was gonna add the Herms coil for experimenting.

Ed

 

[GreenMonti]

I have thought about welding a stand and that may be it. But, I really don't know... Since I don't have to worry about fire, I can use anything that will hold up the weight, put up with a bit of heat and is easy to clean right?

I build a RIM's heater and I'm very happy with it. I was gonna add the Herms coil for experimenting.

Ed

I have seen your RIM's and it is a very nice piece.

Yea, I think you get to build with what ever you want to.

 

[RonRock]

Iron! You got the welder, you gotta use it. You know you want to.

Na just BS'ing. From the looks of things you'll come up with something nice either way. Look'in good.


I just want to add, this has been a good thread. Lot of good info in this one. Thanks for starting it.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Iron! You got the welder, you gotta use it. You know you want to.

Na just BS'ing. From the looks of things you'll come up with something nice either way. Look'in good.

I really haven't got to the point of thinking about the stand to much. My original thought was of course doing something with metal. Then I used polyurethane insulation on my MLT's maiden voyage and realized heat is not a huge issue and I have a lot of options for a stand.

I just want to add, this has been a good thread. Lot of good info in this one. Thanks for starting it.

Thanks for the complement. I appreciate all I got out of this thread. So I really feel I'm the one that owes the thanks to you all!!

Ed

 

[Dog House Brew]

You guys have thrown a wrench in my spokes. I was following and going HERMS, now it looks like people are switching to RIMS. I've never tried either one......oh well it's HERMS for me.
I thought your kegs looked ok. Instead of thinking they could have been better, I look at it as could have been much worse. Great thread and the teachings will continue each time it makes it back to the front by someone. Keep us posted on the RIMS build.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

You guys have thrown a wrench in my spokes. I was following and going HERMS, now it looks like people are switching to RIMS. I've never tried either one......oh well it's HERMS for me.
I thought your kegs looked ok. Instead of thinking they could have been better, I look at it as could have been much worse. Great thread and the teachings will continue each time it makes it back to the front by someone. Keep us posted on the RIMS build.

Well... I have a HERMs coil that I used one time. I built it to hang in a direct fired kettle. It has valves to control the amount of flow through the coil or by-pass. The problem that I had was controlling the temp of the water in the kettle. I was using propane to heat and it was a PIA, constant adjusting flame & flow. If you have it in your HLT, there is a significant volume of water that has to heated / cooled to change the HERMS temp which takes time. Or you need a separate dedicated vessel with a smaller volume.

In a nutshell, the RIMS heater holds about a quart of liquid (I haven't actually measured it). You can VERY rapidly change the temp of that volume. Then, depending on flow through your mash, I think you have almost 100% heat efficiency.

Having a controller monitor the output temp of the RIMs pretty much guarantees no scorching.

Ed

 

[Dog House Brew]

I agree with the RIMS. I started my build with a 3 tier nothing special. Now I have multiple pumps, a bunch of tri clovers, HERMS coils, yada, yada, yada. I was changing before ever using. I'm going to try it, maybe I won't like it and go back to basics. If I had it to do over, it would be a stainless 2 tier RIMS. I guess hind sight is 20/20. Brewing education is a dangerous thing.

 

[garretto]

I read through this whole thread then got in contact with GreenMonti and decided to have him weld up my keggles. Here is the thread of his welding.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Congratulations...

I'm sure they are outstanding.

Today I found two pinholes in one of the couplings I had welded... Had the keg all cleaned up and put together, doing the "sea trials" (to steal Swagmans line) and found a couple drops where they definitely should not be. So now I get to break it back down and haul it back to the welder.

Ed

 

[Dog House Brew]

Sorry to hear this after all the research and hard work you put into it.

 

[garretto]

oh dang that does suck. I'm sorry you have had to go through all of this but for what its worth, you taught me a good lesson on looking for the right man for the job.

 

[GreenMonti]

Congratulations...

I'm sure they are outstanding.

Today I found two pinholes in one of the couplings I had welded... Had the keg all cleaned up and put together, doing the "sea trials" (to steal Swagmans line) and found a couple drops where they definitely should not be. So now I get to break it back down and haul it back to the welder.

Ed

Ed,

It was very disappointing to read this the other day. Did you make it back to the weldor yet?

Out of courisity, was the welds leaking from a pin point in the end of the weld? If one doesn't "tail" out on their heat at the end of a weld it will leave a crater or a pin hole. Just interested if that is where the leak is.

This is a shot of my welds just after welding. I marked the area where you can see my "tail" out of the heat.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Ed,

It was very disappointing to read this the other day. Did you make it back to the weldor yet?

Out of courisity, was the welds leaking from a pin point in the end of the weld? If one doesn't "tail" out on their heat at the end of a weld it will leave a crater or a pin hole. Just interested if that is where the leak is.

This is a shot of my welds just after welding. I marked the area where you can see my "tail" out of the heat.

I was pretty disappointed too...
In one spot it looked like a hairline fracture across the weld. The other spot may have been the end of the weld, to be honest I didn't pay attention to the "weld puddles".

I took the keg back to the welder (I quit using the term Weldor in this case)on Tuesday and picked it up on Wednesday. He said he tried to weld over the problem area and the crack got even larger... said he had no idea what the problem was. So he heated the area all around the coupling (turned about a 3" diameter area blue) and was able to get it to weld.

I brought it home, re-assembled the fittings and filled it with water... darn if there aren't two new leaks!!! I let it sit with about 10 gallons of water and checked the other couplings. Found a leak in one other coupling as well. Keep in mind, these are tiny leaks... maybe 3 minutes for a drop to actually form. So, I disassembled it once again. I filled the other two kegs he welded just to double check... no leaks in them.

I took the keg back for a second time yesterday. I took two new couplings and told him maybe it was contamination that was causing the problem?? I told him it was his option if wanted to cut them out and start over.

I should have it back this afternoon. I'm pretty disappointed that at this point I have to have my fingers crossed and "hope" it doesn't leak. This time I will probably just tape and screw in some plugs to check for leaks instead of going through the hassle of installing and aligning the fittings.

Ed

 

[Dog House Brew]

+1 on the plugs. I'm going to guess that he didn't have them clean enough. I wonder what his filler is? Isn't this how things go. You spent the time to educate yourself, and others, and of couse this would happen. I hat it for you and I hope it gets cleared up. GM may be able to tell you what happend.

 

[RonRock]

Damn what a PITA. He should be water testing them after welding on them. I'd take some plugs with me next time. Bummer.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Damn what a PITA. He should be water testing them after welding on them. I'd take some plugs with me next time. Bummer.

+1 Don't leave without testing