Unusual higher mash PH for the last couple of batches, why?

[Miles_1111]

I have been brewing for several years and do water chemistry for all my BIAB batches. Normally I can get the mash PH close enough to my target, say normally my target is 5.3, then I can get somewhere between 5.25 or 5.35, not too far out. However, for my last 3 batches (a pale ale, a Hazy IPA and a saison) I got mash PH much higher than my target PH. These 3 batches are 5.43, 5,49 and 5.59 individually, where are much higher than my target.

I did not do anything different from before. I use Brunwater to do the water chemistry calculation. I got the sample after 20mins of mashing and cool it down to about 20 C(68F) then test the results. I am thinking it could be the following reasons:

1. The gypsum and CaCl I used were bought 3 years ago, the description say they are valid for up to 2 years. Maybe now they have already lost the ability?
2. If not the above reason, maybe I need to calibrate my PH meter.

Any suggestion what the reason could be? Thanks.

 

[Zambezi Special]

Definitely calibrate your pH meter. That should actually be done very often!
Ideally everytime you use it.

If it isn't the pH meter, then maybe the composition of your water changed?

 

[Miles_1111]

Definitely calibrate your pH meter. That should actually be done very often!
Ideally everytime you use it.

If it isn't the pH meter, then maybe the composition of your water changed?

I will calibrate the PH meter for sure, although I haven't done it since I bought it 2 years ago.

I use 5 gallons of purified RO water all the time, so the water source is consistent.

 

[eliastheodosis]

I use 5 gallons of purified RO water all the time, so the water source is consistent

Varying water source would have been my first guess. I think @Zambezi Special nailed it. I'd bet anything your pH meter is off. If you got two years of readings out of it then count yourself pretty lucky

*edit*
One other thing does come to mind but it's probably much less likely. If you have new malts in the brewhouse and they're a little lighter then it could be enough to push your pH up. If you're building every water profile I'm guessing you've accounted for that, though. Really, it's gotta be your meter...

 

[Miles_1111]

Varying water source would have been my first guess. I think @Zambezi Special nailed it. I'd bet anything your pH meter is off. If you got two years of readings out of it then count yourself pretty lucky

*edit*
One other thing does come to mind but it's probably much less likely. If you have new malts in the brewhouse and they're a little lighter then it could be enough to push your pH up. If you're building every water profile I'm guessing you've accounted for that, though. Really, it's gotta be your meter...

Thanks. I barely repeat the same recipe at my homebrew, so I build water profile for every batch. I will calibrate the meter for next batch.

 

[dmtaylor]

You should calibrate your pH meter with every batch. Not just once every couple years.

 

[bracconiere]

Thanks. I barely repeat the same recipe at my homebrew, so I build water profile for every batch. I will calibrate the meter for next batch.

and don't leave us hangin on the results!

 

[jambop]

While not pooh hooing the subject ... are the differences you have quoted important? I honestly doubt it the difference in pH is quite small and without a very good pH meter is very difficult to measure I worked in laboratories all my working life and I can assure you to measure the differences between even 5.2 and 5.4 you need a very good meter. As to the differences 0.05 of a pH unit laughable with any meter a home brewer would normally use . I would, and do myself, be more inclined to buy a Salifert total alkalinity water test kit. If you use this to test your raw water just before you brew and aim for 25ppm alkalinity just before you start you brew then your brewing liquor will be fine for almost any brew you care to make and you do not need to check the pH at all. The measured alkalinity can be adjusted by adding acid to the total volume of water you need, I use Hydrochloric acid bit phosphoric works too. What is important to remember is the enzymes involved in brewing work within a pH range and any of the pH measurements you have quoted would make beer just fine . Having said all that this is in no way intended as some sort of lecture you may very well be happy the way you make your brew liquor so carry on .
Just as a matter of interest here is a very simple but also very good brew liquor calculator. If you know your water profile it works really well but you need to estimate the water alkalinity using a suitable method I use a Salifert alkalinity kits as I said these are readily available from Amazon and a kit does a huge number of tests.
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html

 

[bracconiere]

are the differences you have quoted important?

i stopped measuring Ph...


but i think this is more about the fact they minerals to bottled water "for taste"?

edit: add

 

[tracer bullet]

i stopped measuring Ph...

I have considered this but not done it yet. I brew about 10 different beers or so, trying small variations each time I make one of them. pH is becoming predictable if I don't make many changes (i.e. yeast or hops) but if I mess with the base malt then I definitely have to stay on top of pH.

If you (brac) are sort of duplicating your recipes all the time and always getting the same results... yeah skipping it might be a reasonable thing.

 

[bracconiere]

If you (brac) are sort of duplicating your recipes all the time and always getting the same results.

no, the only reason i was into it for a while was to save money, realized it wasn't helping with effec that much...1% ain't worth the trouble...


a second step at 162 bumps my mash up 10%...so worrying about 1% seems mundane.

 

[Bassman2003]

Good practice is to calibrate the pH meter every two weeks or every brew, which ever comes first.

Also, it is very important to calibrate it with fresh solution, either bottled or the individual packets. The bottled solution has about a 1 year shelf life. It does make a difference. I went to the dollar store and bought some mini Solo cups to hold the two solutions for calibration. I calibrate during the mash right before the reading. After some time you build up numbers on repetitive recipes and you can skip the readings. Which makes it more important to have solid readings.

 

[jambop]

i stopped measuring Ph...


but i think this is more about the fact they minerals to bottled water "for taste"?

edit: add

To be honest pH is not all that meaningful a measure for brewing as it does not in any way indicate how resistant to change the mash or brew liquor is. However with a figure for alkalinity you do know this. I do know that if you have an alkalinity figure of around 25 ppm you can make almost any light coloured beer and at 50ppm and dark coloured beer . Added minerals are to me like adding salt, pepper and spices to your food they do influence the beer flavour in a subtle way. However the very fact you can make drinkable beer without knowing squat about your brew liquor proves that you can become a bit OTT about a simple factor like liquor pH . JMO

 

[Bassman2003]

It think it would be wise to say that is your opinion...

 

[jambop]

It think it would be wise to say that is your opinion...

I did Truth is though and it is not an opinion people make perfectly good and drinkable beers without knowing anything about their water chemistry and have done for many years ... brewing is the new HiFi tales have to be chased

 

[Bassman2003]

No worries but just to point out - Your post reads like your opinion is that folks can get OTT about pH and that drinkable beers can be made. That is fine. The earlier part is where it looks like facts are being stated: To be honest pH is not all that meaningful a measure for brewing as it does not in any way indicate how resistant to change the mash or brew liquor is.

The famous brewing texts point to pH being very important. Weather one chooses to read or follow is up to them but the research is already in.

 

[jambop]

No worries but just to point out - Your post reads like your opinion is that folks can get OTT about pH and that drinkable beers can be made. That is fine. The earlier part is where it looks like facts are being stated: To be honest pH is not all that meaningful a measure for brewing as it does not in any way indicate how resistant to change the mash or brew liquor is.

The famous brewing texts point to pH being very important. Weather one chooses to read or follow is up to them but the research is already in.

Whether you like it or not weather has little to do with good beer making Similarly pH is not very important to the outcome of making good beer but being within a pH range is and those are two entirely different things and that range can be hit with almost any domestic tap water. I repeat good beer was made for centuries without any knowledge of what pH was never mind what other mineral the brew liquor contained . Weirdly though the bit you have highlighted is absolutely true in brewing. I would take knowing the alkalinity of my brew liquor over its pH every day of the week.

 

[Bassman2003]

Spell check had an error the the first time I typed it in and I chose the wrong one the 2nd time too! My typing sucks. But that is only part of the tale - "tail"... (HIFI) Touche.

Technicalities of verbiage do not matter as much as the practice. pH can be a focus to make very good beer, or it can be ignored and make fine/good beer. Kind of complicated. I just do not care for blanket statements that people read on forums that makes one think things don't matter. They do matter for those that know or need the performance like a pro brewer. One example, I track mash pH and knockout boil pH. This scenario is something that can not be achieved with just tap water and/or alkalinity.

 

[jambop]

Spell check had an error the the first time I typed it in and I chose the wrong one the 2nd time too! My typing sucks. But that is only part of the tale - "tail"... (HIFI) Touche.

Technicalities of verbiage do not matter as much as the practice. pH can be a focus to make very good beer, or it can be ignored and make fine/good beer. Kind of complicated. I just do not care for blanket statements that people read on forums that makes one think things don't matter. They do matter for those that know or need the performance like a pro brewer. One example, I track mash pH and knockout boil pH. This scenario is something that can not be achieved with just tap water and/or alkalinity.

 

[tracer bullet]

Seems like clarification is needed. RA, or pH, measured when?

It'd be hard to disagree both are important, at least at certain times.

Is it being said that mash pH isn't important? That when you have grains and hot water sitting there together, measuring pH is pointless information?

 

[jambop]

Seems like clarification is needed. RA, or pH, measured when?

It'd be hard to disagree both are important, at least at certain times.

Is it being said that mash pH isn't important? That when you have grains and hot water sitting there together, measuring pH is pointless information?

Not at all but with respect to the OP the fellow is quoting pH differences of pH 5.3 to pH 5.6 ( forget 5.29 and 5.59 that is BS very few pH meters can get anywhere near that level of accuracy ) and that is not going to make a real detectable difference to his mashing efficiency or final beer . If you test the liquor before starting to brew and titrate the liquor to give a alkalinity of 25ppm you will have a liquor that will brew almost any beer without the need for a pH reading. Of course the other point about pH readings is what if you try to change the mash pH what do you use? If you use phosphoric acid you immediately start precipitating Calcium which is an important cofactor in the enzymic process or Hydrochloric acid and change the chloride ion concentration ?

 

[Bobby_M]

and that range can be hit with almost any domestic tap water.

I'd prefer "some" instead of "almost any". It's pretty common for well water in the Northeast U.S. to be extremely alkaline to the point that even the ink black stouts do not bring enough natural acidity to even make the beer drinkable. Some municipal water supplies occasionally come from a well. My buddy at one point was measuring 700+ TDS out of the tap. Moral of the story is that you can't just assume you'll hit the range without paying attention.

I repeat good beer was made for centuries without any knowledge of what pH was never mind what other mineral the brew liquor contained .

Good beer was made in breweries that realized what kinds of beers their local water source just happened to work for. When they tried something different and it was less than great, they stopped making that. We're homebrewers in THIS century and we want to make whatever beer. That takes some level of technology unless you want to use "good beer" in its most subjective way.

 

[jambop]

To be fair, and this is not a jab, coming from Europe where there are few people who do not have a properly prepared water supply you seldom get such water. However even then I would still go by my alkalinity measured and and adjusted to be in the correct range prior to mashing than fannying around with a pH meter in a mash tun trying to get my mash into the correct pH range. Brewing is as easy or complicated as you want to make it and some try to make it as difficult and technical as they can or so it seems.

 

[tracer bullet]

fannying around with a pH meter in a mash tun trying to get my mash into the correct pH range

Hmm, not how I do it. I take a sample towards the end of the mash, and get the reading later when I'm hanging around watching the wort boil. I pocket the information to make adjustments for the next time, if needed. A pH meter is just another tool, and one that's pretty simple to use. The disconnect in this conversation might be what you think people are doing with their meters?

Also FYI no one is saying alkalinity doesn't matter.

 

[jambop]

Hmm, not how I do it. I take a sample towards the end of the mash, and get the reading later when I'm hanging around watching the wort boil. I pocket the information to make adjustments for the next time, if needed. A pH meter is just another tool, and one that's pretty simple to use. The disconnect in this conversation might be what you think people are doing with their meters?

Also FYI no one is saying alkalinity doesn't matter

You had better think about what you are saying... you want to know what is happening in the current mash not what you may do different to the next mash and that is where knowing the alkalinity of you raw brewing water comes to your aid . What you are suggesting is shutting the gate after the horse has bolted .
A very good example of what can happen last summer the water to my house for a period had alkalinity of 135ppm the average given by the water company is 103ppm you cannot guess that!

 

[Bassman2003]

He stated nobody is downplaying alkalinity.

It is common knowledge that measuring pH is half about the current batch and half about the next except for knockout pH at the end of the boil. Knowing what your starting point allows you to forecast what your knockout will be after additions. I shoot for pH 5.1 at knockout.

My pH meter cost $70. I know it is not a pillar of accuracy but it seems close enough. Yes, I choose to brew in a more complicated way, but I never say others should do so unless they want to. But that doesn't negate that there are ok. better and best practices already defined in the brewing world. Peace!

 

[tracer bullet]

Yeah, it feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. Or lots of misinterpretation. Alkalinity is important, again, we all agree. Sheesh.

And, many of us believe that measuring pH is useful info as well, that it's not a waste of time. It's not an either-or thing, one can do both. This is just not a complicated concept to understand.

 

[mac_1103]

Gee, and here I always thought that the reason that alkalinity is so important is that it determines what you have to do to get the pH right. Surely no one would suggest that measuring alkalinity and then not doing anything about it is going to improve your beer? So what else are we supposed to do about alkalinity besides add acid to overcome it?

 

[bracconiere]

So what else are we supposed to do about alkalinity besides add acid to overcome it?

from what i've read on these forums, most people drop a K on a RO system? lol

 

[jambop]

Gee, and here I always thought that the reason that alkalinity is so important is that it determines what you have to do to get the pH right. Surely no one would suggest that measuring alkalinity and then not doing anything about it is going to improve your beer? So what else are we supposed to do about alkalinity besides add acid to overcome it?

No you have that a little wrong you determine the raw alkalinity just before brewing and the titrate the excess alkalinity with hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. For the greater majority of pale to medium dark beers this is about 25 ppm for very dark beers 50ppm. The benefit of using those acids is that they are both compatible with the mineral needs of brewing process and you can predict exactly how much of each you need to add to the volume of brewing water to get the desired alkalinity. Unlike lactic acid and phosphoric, acids one of which precipitates Calcium and the other which taints the flavour of some beers if added in large quantities, the sulphate and chloride ions are both beneficial. Taking a pH reading of the raw water tells you little of its buffering capabilities. People rely on what their water companies tell them about their water with respect to alkalinity I do not I measure it before I brew. Last summer many of my brews would have been very different had I not estimated my brew water alkalinity. At times the alkalinity was 30+ percent higher than their average figure.
But that is not the issue here the point was made that knowing pH is a very important in brewing and it is not. The important issue is making sure that when you mash your grains the mash pH falls within a range that is suitable for the enzymic process. Knowing the alkalinity of the liquor before mashing allows you to mash safe in the knowledge that your mash will have a pH within that window. I am certainly not one for measuring the pH of my current brew to try to possibly influence my next brew bizarrely armed with only a mash pH from the previous mash to determine what went wrong. I posted a calculator earlier on it is a fool proof way of perfectly hitting the pH window for mashing.
Any way have a nice day and best wishes for all your brews.

 

[bracconiere]

No you have that a little wrong you determine the raw alkalinity just before brewing and the titrate the excess alkalinity with hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. For the greater majority of pale to medium dark beers this is about 25 ppm for very dark beers 50ppm. The benefit of using those acids is that they are both compatible with the mineral needs of brewing process and you can predict exactly how much of each you need to add to the volume of brewing water to get the desired alkalinity. Unlike lactic acid and phosphoric, acids one of which precipitates Calcium and the other which taints the flavour of some beers if added in large quantities, the sulphate and chloride ions are both beneficial. Taking a pH reading of the raw water tells you little of its buffering capabilities. People rely on what their water companies tell them about their water with respect to alkalinity I do not I measure it before I brew. Last summer many of my brews would have been very different had I not estimated my brew water alkalinity. At times the alkalinity was 30+ percent higher than their average figure.
But that is not the issue here the point was made that knowing pH is a very important in brewing and it is not. The important issue is making sure that when you mash your grains the mash pH falls within a range that is suitable for the enzymic process. Knowing the alkalinity of the liquor before mashing allows you to mash safe in the knowledge that your mash will have a pH within that window. I am certainly not one for measuring the pH of my current brew to try to possibly influence my next brew bizarrely armed with only a mash pH from the previous mash to determine what went wrong. I posted a calculator earlier on it is a fool proof way of perfectly hitting the pH window for mashing.
Any way have a nice day and best wishes for all your brews.

i love your walls of text! seriously!


i would be curious where you're getting 'food grade' HCl though? or do you just use pool acid?

 

[mac_1103]

No you have that a little wrong you determine the raw alkalinity just before brewing and the titrate the excess alkalinity with hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level.

So in other words, you adjust the pH.

 

[bracconiere]

So in other words, you adjust the pH.

You sure do like to hear yourself talk (or read your own typing), don't you?

"hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. "

tag team! i'm still wondering where the food grade is coming from, when i need HCl, or sulphuric i have reach for pool acid and drain opener?

 

[mac_1103]

No, the drain opener is for raising the pH not lowering it.

 

[bracconiere]

No, the drain opener is for raising the pH not lowering it.

depends on what it's cloged with? i can get food grade lye or drain opener? 'depends' if i'm trying to make bagels or flush something......

 

[jambop]

"hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. "

tag team! i'm still wondering where the food grade is coming from, when i need HCl, or sulphuric i have reach for pool acid and drain opener?

You can buy a product here that is food grade and believe it or not is supplied to professional brewers here in France and the UK to reduce alkalinity in brewing liquor . It is a mix of 1molar Sulphuric acid and two molar hydrochloric acid using it you can reduce calcium carbonate to the exact ppm levels required while knowing exactly the increased levels of sulphate and chloride ions and without changing calcium ion levels. It is an outstanding product

 

[jambop]

"hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. "

tag team! i'm still wondering where the food grade is coming from, when i need HCl, or sulphuric i have reach for pool acid and drain opener?

www.murphyandson.co.uk/
You want AMS

 

[bracconiere]

You can buy a product here that is food grade and believe it or not is supplied to professional brewers here in France and the UK to reduce alkalinity in brewing liquor . It is a mix of 1molar Sulphuric acid and two molar hydrochloric acid using it you can reduce calcium carbonate to the exact ppm levels required while knowing exactly the increased levels of sulphate and chloride ions and without changing calcium ion levels. It is an outstanding product

so if i get it right, a blend of concentrated pool acid at 36g/mol and 30% with water at 18g/mol, and conc sulphiric drain open at 98% at 98g/mol...would give me this?

 

[jambop]

so if i get it right, a blen of concentrated pool acid at 36g/mol, and conc sulphiric drain open at 98% at 98g/mol...would give me this?

I have worked in molecular biology for a big Pharma company for my entire working life prior to retiring and I would be more than confidents to use those acids to make the molarities required . Battery acid would be a good choice of Sulphuric acid as it is very pure by nature. I would have more worries about the air I breathe than any impurities in pool acid and battery acid.

 

[bracconiere]

I would have more worries about the air I breathe than any impurities in pool acid and battery acid.

hey man i extracted pectin from orange peels before with rubbing alcohol, and used drain opener to make jelly! best jam ever!


(here in the states though it'd probably have a prop 65 warning though, lol)