Underpitching methods for English Bitter?

[dan46nbrew]

I've read that underpitching is recommended for increasing ester production for styles like an English bitter. Is it better to reduce the amount of wort in the starter by 2/3 and let it run the usual 24-48 hours or use a vitality starter? Not sure how to even calculate the vitality starter. I read you basically make the starter 4-5 hours before you pitch but not sure how much starter wort to use in that case? Any suggestions on how to go about underpitching and what calculations to use?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Have you seen this thread?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...emps-and-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts.221817/

 

[dan46nbrew]

Have you seen this thread?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...emps-and-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts.221817/

No but I'll check it out. Thanks!

 

[madscientist451]

What yeast are you using?

 

[dan46nbrew]

What yeast are you using?

WLP002

 

[madscientist451]

Instead of trying to push esters by under pitching, perhaps you'd be better off using Wyeast 1318, which has a somewhat reliable ester character.

 

[ba-brewer]

I found by keeping the grain bill simple and not using too much late hops you can get more esters. Allow the beers to condition for about a months seems to help bring out esters for me too, but that might be a personal problem.

Never used wlp002, but did get good results with 1318. WLP041 seems to produce decent esters without doing anything special. WLP1469 also gives some esters and brings out malt character.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Imperial's version of Fuller's (Pub/1968/002) is really tasty and ester-ific.

 

[cire]

It's great to read of brewers wishing to replicate English beers and being prepared to alter their methods. Too frequently I read discouragement and fear of change, often with the best of intentions at heart. If you haven't guessed, I'm British and live in England.

It's highly probable I underpitch on many occasions, although never intentionally. You certainly shouldn't worry about testing your theory. I know I've underpitched when my beer is slow to finish primary, but not necessarily because it had more esters. However, I do ferment my beers at higher temperatures than is mostly on this forum. I will pitch around 65F, but let the temperature free rise, usually as a result of yeast activity, to 72F over a typical 3 day fermentation, depending upon the strain in use.

I used WLP002 for several years and was content with its performance, but more recently have settled to use British sources of yeast. Those produce quite different outcomes, but I won't go as far as suggesting you must use those to achieve your objective.

One aspect you might consider, if you've not already, is higher mineral levels British brewers use. A typical British Bitter would be made with 150 ppm calcium in all brewing water, while a stronger Best Bitter might have as much as 220 ppm. Calcium has many virtues, but in particular for the aspect currently in mind, it increases the production of Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN) in the mash, one essential for a strong fermentation.

 

[dan46nbrew]

Thanks for all the responses. I'll let it free rise and go a bit warmer with the water chem suggestions. If that doesn't work well I'll try the 1318 strain... already have the 002 on hand.

 

[The_Antikveik]

My preference is to 'over' pitch, especially with characterful English yeast strains. Although I don't waste time trying to clone my favourite commercial English ales, I aim to get a nice balanced ale that isn't overwhelmed by yeast esters that often result from under pitching. I'd recommend trying some commercially available traditional English ales first, if you haven't already. Rather than pursue misguided recommendations to under pitch English yeast.

 

[micraftbeer]

I can't speak to the practice for British Ales, but I might try as I've found my attempts at British Bitter a far cry from what I remember in the pubs there.

However, I have had similar experience with my Dusseldorf Alt. After a trip to Dusseldorf, I fell in love with the style. I crafted a recipe based on a BYO article recommending various things, and first attempt was spot-on. Many brews later, I went back and it wasn't quite the same. I tried tweaking a lot of small changes I had made since in my process, but I just couldn't reproduce it. I then started thinking about my yeast practices and how they'd changed.

On my original recipe, I pitched the smack pack in (Wyeast 1007) with no starter and no oxygen add. I ferment this at the low end of its temperature range, around 57-58F. It's not a high gravity wort (~1.050), so I don't feel I'm underpitching. But I am making a more challenging environment for my yeast with the low temperature, but not helping it out with a starter or oxygen. So I changed my yeast process back to those early days (just for this beer), and that certain something that was missing was back in the flavor.

So I would say if you want to try this out with your 002, skip the starter altogether (vitality or "regular"), and skip the oxygen. Ferment on the cooler end (which normally suppresses esters). You could maybe try pitching a little less than the one pouch's worth if you were feeling really aggressive. All of this stuff will make your fermentation environment more challenging, which might bring out some flavor profile you're looking for.

 

[bwible]

Imperial's version of Fuller's (Pub/1968/002) is really tasty and ester-ific.

I just got a pack of Imperial Pub that’s out of date but I got it for free. I never used it before but have read and heard good things. I’m going to build that up and use it for my next round of Best Bitter and Pale ale. I bottled the last Best Bitter and Pale Ale I made a week ago and I’m eager to try them soon. I bottled in 16oz bottles. 3 gallon batches, I wound up with 22 bottles out of each batch. Those were made with Lallemand Verdant yeast, which was recommended in the Favorite English Ale recipe thread. The bottles I filled and capped last week don’t look clear. Others have said that yeast takes awhile to drop out.

 

[dan46nbrew]

Just kegged my first ESB. I used David Heaths recipe with Voss Kveik and his water profile. Not sure if it needs more time to condition but it doesn't seem to taste right. It finished at 1.010... it tastes earthy, a little dry, moderate bitterness but not from hops, seems to be a roasty bitterness from the malts. I was expecting a sweeter more malt forward taste. I have another version using a different yeast and recipe I'm going to compare to in the next few days.... I've never had an ESB before so don't have anything to compare it to.

 

[tracer bullet]

Huh, you said you had the WLP002 already on hand. Did you decide against it or have an issue come up?

Couple thoughts:

* If you've never had the Fuller's ESB or much any beer from over there, it'll be hard to know if you even came close
* You made a pretty important recipe change at the last minute

 

[dan46nbrew]

Huh, you said you had the WLP002 already on hand. Did you decide against it or have an issue come up?

Couple thoughts:

* If you've never had the Fuller's ESB or much any beer from over there, it'll be hard to know if you even came close
* You made a pretty important recipe change at the last minute

The WLP002 should be ready in a few days… the Kveik finished a lot faster…

 

[tracer bullet]

Ahhhh, a split batch w/ 2 yeasts? OK - cool. That will be an interesting comparison. I would expect a pretty big difference.

Was this your recipe? David Heath ESB - Strong Bitter Homebrew Recipe

If so, did you do the molasses? It should be an interesting beer and probably good but maybe not exactly sweet or malty. It isn't what you'd consider a "typical" recipe.

 

[McMullan]

5% molasses? Kveik? Really? That's going to taste like...

 

[Miraculix]

Whatever you do with 002, keep it on the cold side. Otherwise hangover of death is inevitable.

ESB is a beer brewed by Fuller's and you can find the original recipe here in the forum. It does not include molasses and it is most certainly not brewed with kveik.

 

[Elric]

The recipe linked is not David Heath's, it is a recipe that bastardized his 002 with what they had on hand. His recipes are on his youtube descriptions, I have added the original for context:

than this is his modified recipe using kveik:

To the OP, to each their own with recipes and what they want out of them, personally I am not a fan of putting chocolate malt in them as I want toast, biscuit and caramel malt tastes in my esb, not roast or chocolate notes. The British hops are going to give that earthy taste you commented on, and I would suspect that the 002 one won't taste as dry as the kveik one but, but in both the chocolate malt will likely be serving to enhance what you are likely tasting as dryness.
I suggest you go out and find a proper English ESB to compare against so you have an accurate example to understand what the style should taste like.

cheers

 

[DuncB]

and well worth watching the beer hunter ! whilst drinking your commercial brew of ESB compared to your versions.

 

[Miraculix]

... so you have an accurate example to understand what the style should taste like.

cheers

ESB is not a style, ESB is a specific beer brewed by Fuller's. I have no idea who messed this up (hi bjcp!), but it is the same as with wee heavy. Also a specific beer, not a style.

 

[Elric]

ESB is not a style, ESB is a specific beer brewed by Fuller's. I have no idea who messed this up (hi bjcp!), but it is the same as with wee heavy. Also a specific beer, not a style.

Because of the popularity of fullers esb, in North America ESB has been co-opted to describe strong bitters. A number of the breweries here making the style will refer to it as ESB. As the OP (and the majority of the users) from this forum are from NA it was easier to describe it as that. Though to be fair, he will be having a hard time finding any non-fullers examples of the style by looking for an esb, although it is easily the most likely example to find on this side of the pond anyway.

 

[dan46nbrew]

If anyone is interested, here is the recipe for the 2nd bitter from Mean Brews with 002 that I'm about to keg to compare to the the David Heath modified recipe.

https://recipe.brewfather.app/kz5k0Q6...

 

[Elric]

If anyone is interested, here is the recipe for the 2nd bitter from Mean Brews with 002 that I'm about to keg to compare to the the David Heath modified recipe.

https://recipe.brewfather.app/kz5k0Q6...

interested to hear your thoughts on the differences between the two recipes. The mean brews one looks more like what I would brew for an esb/strong bitter.

cheers

 

[eshea3]

ESB is not a style, ESB is a specific beer brewed by Fuller's. I have no idea who messed this up (hi bjcp!), but it is the same as with wee heavy. Also a specific beer, not a style.

The 2015 BJCP guidelines changed the ESB/Strong Bitter designation in the 2008 version to Strong Bitter. But the ESB notion still persists. Interestingly, Fuller's ESB is not listed as an examplar of the Strong Bitter style in the 2015 guidelines. The new 2021 guidlines are identical to the 2015 version in respect to this category, I believe.

 

[Brooothru]

Does anyone have a suggested mash temperature or step mash profile for Ordinary Bitter/11A or Best Bitter/11B? I'm getting together all the ingredients to brew London Pride and ESB clones as my first shot at brewing British style beers. As @eshea3 stated, the BJCP guidelines for 2021 (updated) are the same as 2015. I've enjoyed many beers in the U.K. but for some reason never got around to brewing any. I intend to rectify that error this brew season.

 

[Miraculix]

Does anyone have a suggested mash temperature or step mash profile for Ordinary Bitter/11A or Best Bitter/11B? I'm getting together all the ingredients to brew London Pride and ESB clones as my first shot at brewing British style beers. As @eshea3 stated, the BJCP guidelines for 2021 (updated) are the same as 2015. I've enjoyed many beers in the U.K. but for some reason never got around to brewing any. I intend to rectify that error this brew season.

Single Infusion @65C.

 

[eshea3]

Does anyone have a suggested mash temperature or step mash profile for Ordinary Bitter/11A or Best Bitter/11B? I'm getting together all the ingredients to brew London Pride and ESB clones as my first shot at brewing British style beers. As @eshea3 stated, the BJCP guidelines for 2021 (updated) are the same as 2015. I've enjoyed many beers in the U.K. but for some reason never got around to brewing any. I intend to rectify that error this brew season.

With modern grains I mash at 151F/66C for 60 minutes. I use Golden Promise for the most part, but would do the same with Maris Otter.

 

[tracer bullet]

So, I have a yeast question generated by this topic, and relating to it, so here goes -

Let's say Imperial Pub A09 - how about a fermentation temperature? I see 64 - 70 listed, and we know typically warmer is fruiter (more estery anyhow), but have often see that the "real" breweries run closer to 60F?

 

[eshea3]

Is that the pitching temp and then they let it ride?

 

[cire]

Is that the pitching temp and then they let it ride?

Yes indeed it is in many better breweries.

If you want a bland and near tasteless beer, or possibly one swamped by hops, then pitch cool and keep it cool. For a characterful beer with full range of flavors, pitch plenty and cool, then let the yeast's energy warm the fermenting wort, then attenuate it should it be in danger of getting too warm.

 

[eshea3]

Yes indeed it is in many better breweries.

If you want a bland and near tasteless beer, or possibly one swamped by hops, then pitch cool and keep it cool. For a characterful beer with full range of flavors, pitch plenty and cool, then let the yeast's energy warm the fermenting wort, then attenuate it should it be in danger of getting too warm.

Agreed, but was wondering if that is what the OP meant.

 

[tracer bullet]

I didn't really have a meaning, just the question. I'm on board w/ the warmer temps and have no desire to maintain 60-ish F. Just wanted to confirm how things were done.

There was a recent thread that had the gist of - Americans don't use nearly enough minerals when trying to make British beers, and I didn't want the yeast to be the same way (that, perhaps, Americans ferment too warm)!

Thanks!

 

[Brooothru]

Yes indeed it is in many better breweries.

If you want a bland and near tasteless beer, or possibly one swamped by hops, then pitch cool and keep it cool. For a characterful beer with full range of flavors, pitch plenty and cool, then let the yeast's energy warm the fermenting wort, then attenuate it should it be in danger of getting too warm.

I had originally planned on doing a Hoch-Kurz step mash {:25 mins @ 62C/144F and :25 mins @ 70C/158F} which pretty much splits the difference between @eshea3 66C/151F and @Miraculix 65C/149F, so 150F 65-66C for :50 fits in that wheelhouse nicely. But I can help but think that separate Beta and Alpha amylase rests might capture the peaks of both enzymes better?

I appreciate the comments on fermentation temperature as well. I used A-09 Pub twice last year, once for a Kona Big Wave Blonde and a Jai Alai clone. Both were fermented at the low end of the recommended temperature. Both seemed to lack the aromas and flavors I'd hoped to get with Pub. Thanks @cire for the comments on a fix for that by favoring the high end of recommended fermentation temperature. I'll certainly follow that lead.

Cabin fever is starting to build around here. I need a break in the weather. Overnight lows in the single digit ain't gonna hack it for the way I brew.

 

[Miraculix]

I had originally planned on doing a Hoch-Kurz step mash {:25 mins @ 62C/144F and :25 mins @ 70C/158F} which pretty much splits the difference between @eshea3 66C/151F and @Miraculix 65C/149F, so 150F 65-66C for :50 fits in that wheelhouse nicely. But I can help but think that separate Beta and Alpha amylase rests might capture the peaks of both enzymes better?

I appreciate the comments on fermentation temperature as well. I used A-09 Pub twice last year, once for a Kona Big Wave Blonde and a Jai Alai clone. Both were fermented at the low end of the recommended temperature. Both seemed to lack the aromas and flavors I'd hoped to get with Pub. Thanks @cire for the comments on a fix for that by favoring the high end of recommended fermentation temperature. I'll certainly follow that lead.

Cabin fever is starting to build around here. I need a break in the weather. Overnight lows in the single digit ain't gonna hack it for the way I brew.

It might give you a tiny bit better attenuation if you do the 62/72 Hochkurz mash, but why? I did this often and after reading that nearly no tarditional British brewery does it, I tried the more common approach, which is usually 65-68C single infusion and believe it or not, I found out, it worked . So ne need to complicate things. If you want, you can do a mashout for foam positive glucoproteinformation. I wouldn't do more.

... actually, the 72C step would be also foam positive... so there is this plus for the step mash. But I guess you get the same result via the mashout, but I am not sure. I would need to further evaluate.

 

[Brooothru]

It might give you a tiny bit better attenuation if you do the 62/72 Hochkurz mash, but why? I did this often and after reading that nearly no tarditional British brewery does it, I tried the more common approach, which is usually 65-68C single infusion and believe it or not, I found out, it worked . So ne need to complicate things. If you want, you can do a mashout for foam positive glucoproteinformation. I wouldn't do more.

... actually, the 72C step would be also foam positive... so there is this plus for the step mash. But I guess you get the same result via the mashout, but I am not sure. I would need to further evaluate.

Actually that makes sense. My thinking behind a Hoch-Kurz mash (I always do them for German lagers) was to capture more fermentables on the Beta rest but still be foam positive at 66C for Alpha amylase. But Beta is still active at 66C, just not as active as it is at 62C. I mash in at 55C and let the wort temperature rise (electric + recirculation) up to subsequent rests and mash out.

The rise from 55C to 66C takes about 15 minutes during which time Beta maximum (61C) is being "bracketed". So doughing-in at 55C and having the temperature rise to 65-68C for a single temperature :60 minute mash should accomplish a mash with adequate fermentables and plenty of body/mouthfeel. Mash-out at 70C to seal the deal. What's your opinion of adding invert to the wort. I've got four 1 pound tins of Lyle's Golden Syrup sitting idly by. Yea or Nay?

 

[DuncB]

Seems that Timothy Taylors do want a very attenuative wort.

Watching the Timothy Taylor brewery tour with the head brewer



at about 6 minutes he says that they mash in at 60 celsius or 150 and that the mash process can take about 5 hours. Not sure when that time starts or finishes though. Probably from water heating until the kettle is filled I guess.
Clearly they don't mash at that temp throughout and I did notice the valve that Peter opens was not reading 150.

So I'm not sure that we get the whole truth.

 

[cire]

I've listened to that video time and time again and cannot believe Timothy Taylor mash at 60C. I can only think he stumbled saying that. I've mashed at 60C and with their yeast, didn't produce a well bodied beer.

The 5 hours I can accept. A 90 minute mash followed by sparging for three and a half hours. I frequently have sugars left in the grains four hours after mashing in.

 

[DuncB]

@cire I agree looking at that gauge in freeze frame it looks much more like 170 F for the water which is nearly 77 celsius which is far hotter and that would probably be the wrong temp as well. Perhaps he meant to say 160 ( 71) and they get a lot of drop with the grain temp, after all it is the north of England. Or was he starting the sparge whilst talking about the beginning of the mash. 60 C is not 150 in old money either.
Eitherway it won't be a stepmash that's for sure!