The Water Engine

Williams 728
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Downloaded V 1.07 last week and used for water adjustments for a Pale ale, vs Bru'n Water which I usually use. Water Engine pH was slightly lower than Bru'n Water and pretty much spot on with what my actual pH was. Awesome!

But this week, using V 1.09 for a Pilsner, I get a pH of 5.21 with Bru'n Water and my salt additions plus 1 mL of lactic acid, but Water Engine with same salts and lactic comes out to 5.660. I would have to up the lactic additions to 8.5 mL, which gets me to 5.214. I am using Mecca Grade Pelton Pilsner which is listed at 5.9 pH on their site and their Metolius Munich malt which lists at 5.75 pH. Both use 100% distilled water with BIAB full volume mash.

Seems like Water Engine may be the more accurate, since two base malts in a Pilsner without any acidulated malt and minor water adjustments (3.4 grams each of gypsum, CaCl and 2.6 Epsom Salt in 8.86 gallons) would need a healthy dose of acid to get down to the targeted pH.
 
jdauria said:
Downloaded V 1.07 last week and used for water adjustments for a Pale ale, vs Bru'n Water which I usually use. Water Engine pH was slightly lower than Bru'n Water and pretty much spot on with what my actual pH was. Awesome!

But this week, using V 1.09 for a Pilsner, I get a pH of 5.21 with Bru'n Water and my salt additions plus 1 mL of lactic acid, but Water Engine with same salts and lactic comes out to 5.660. I would have to up the lactic additions to 8.5 mL, which gets me to 5.214. I am using Mecca Grade Pelton Pilsner which is listed at 5.9 pH on their site and their Metolius Munich malt which lists at 5.75 pH. Both use 100% distilled water with BIAB full volume mash.

Seems like Water Engine may be the more accurate, since two base malts in a Pilsner without any acidulated malt and minor water adjustments (3.4 grams each of gypsum, CaCl and 2.6 Epsom Salt in 8.86 gallons) would need a healthy dose of acid to get down to the targeted pH.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear it!

Did you model the Mecca malts as American Pilsner and Munich or as Euro Pilsner and Munich? Try it both ways because that Mecca Grade malt looks characteristically closer to euro malt than NA counterparts.

Just curious...
 
RPIScotty said:
Glad to hear it!

Did you model the Mecca malts as American Pilsner and Munich or as Euro Pilsner and Munich? Try it both ways because that Mecca Grade malt looks characteristically closer to euro malt than NA counterparts.

Just curious...
Click to expand...

I modeled them both as American malts, but will try as Euro.
 
RPIScotty said:
Glad to hear it!

Did you model the Mecca malts as American Pilsner and Munich or as Euro Pilsner and Munich? Try it both ways because that Mecca Grade malt looks characteristically closer to euro malt than NA counterparts.

Just curious...
Click to expand...

So changing the Mecca Grade malts to European malts, but keeping their reported pH, drops the required amount of lactic to 7 mL from 8.5 to get to 5.2 pH. Keeping the malt database pH instead of actual, reduces it to 6.5 mL. So either way, it's still a big difference from Bru'n Water. Will play it safe and add half of the needed lactic, take my pH and then adjust from there.
 
jdauria said:
So changing the Mecca Grade malts to European malts, but keeping their reported pH, drops the required amount of lactic to 7 mL from 8.5 to get to 5.2 pH. Keeping the malt database pH instead of actual, reduces it to 6.5 mL. So either way, it's still a big difference from Bru'n Water. Will play it safe and add half of the needed lactic, take my pH and then adjust from there.
Click to expand...

Depending on how the actuals pan out, I would probably run those as their Euro counterparts.
 
Ok guys i have few questions:
What malt type should i consider for Chit malt?, on Brun'Water it recommends taking the mash pH after 15 minutes of the mash, is this the same for Water Engine?. if i add salt additions in sparge water, on Water Engine is on kettle additions?
 
duelerx said:
Ok guys i have few questions:
What malt type should i consider for Chit malt?, on Brun'Water it recommends taking the mash pH after 15 minutes of the mash, is this the same for Water Engine?. if i add salt additions in sparge water, on Water Engine is on kettle additions?
Click to expand...

Chit malt is essentially undermodified Pils malt. I would try it as continental pils and if you feel that doesn’t work out well for estimation, try light crystal or flaked barley as a drop down.

I recommend a room temp sample at 30 minutes into the mash.

Kettle Minerals can either be added to the sparge water or directly to the kettle, whichever you prefer.
 
RPIScotty said:
Chit malt is essentially undermodified Pils malt. I would try it as continental pils and if you feel that doesn’t work out well for estimation, try light crystal or flaked barley as a drop down.

I recommend a room temp sample at 30 minutes into the mash.

Kettle Minerals can either be added to the sparge water or directly to the kettle, whichever you prefer.
Click to expand...
Thanks
 
Screenshot of the main page on The Brewing Engine:

Capture.JPG
 
MAJOR UPDATE
v1.10 is live at the site in my signature. This version is a major revision, as I finally figured out A.J.'s CalcQ (albeit slightly modified here) and FindpHz functions which allowed me to implement the GenII Proton Deficit algorithm without using the solver.

All macro buttons, help docs for macros and solvers, etc. have been removed from the sheet and the site.

The sheet now tracks pHz in real time based on changes to the sheet. This means freeware users and Mac users should be able to use without issue.

I made some minor bug fixes and had to temporarily remove the Sparge Acidification calculator in order to better integrate into this new format.

Capture2.JPG


Enjoy!
 
Very nice! I'll give it a spin in LibreOffice.

EDIT: It appears to be working properly after I turned on "Iterations" in LibreOffice Calc (which I believe is akin to allowing circular reasoning). Quite an accomplishment.

EDIT 2: Still acting wonky in LibreOffice Calc. Seems to work sometimes and not work other times. Circular reasoning was not the full answer.
 
Last edited:
The altbier recipe matches exactly to ver 1.09 outcome.
I do miss the Solve for Alkalinity button, but just used what v1.09 did with my base water.

Very nice!

[Edit: Meant to mention this is Excel 2007, worked flawlessless, no changes that had not already been made for ver 1.09]
 
balrog said:
The altbier recipe matches exactly to ver 1.09 outcome.
I do miss the Solve for Alkalinity button, but just used what v1.09 did with my base water.

Very nice!

[Edit: Meant to mention this is Excel 2007, worked flawlessless, no changes that had not already been made for ver 1.09]
Click to expand...

It was all or nothing with the solver. You can still find alkalinity by increasing or decreasing it to zero the balance value.
 
RPIScotty said:
It was all or nothing with the solver. You can still find alkalinity by increasing or decreasing it to zero the balance value.
Click to expand...
Thanks, that's what I figured. Same with try-retry on acid or NaCOH. What I feel like I need to figure out is how to titrate my phosphoric acid to find what it really is %-wise, and any malt I use for diph. There's gotta be some easy McGiver way with a coffee maker, an arduino, some dental floss and Tums.
 
balrog said:
Thanks, that's what I figured. Same with try-retry on acid or NaCOH. What I feel like I need to figure out is how to titrate my phosphoric acid to find what it really is %-wise, and any malt I use for diph. There's gotta be some easy McGiver way with a coffee maker, an arduino, some dental floss and Tums.
Click to expand...

I agree that as a troubleshooting tool the solver based version is more powerful. The buttons in particular give quick, precise results but that implementation is a limiting element for many people using it so well make this new version as best as possible.
 
Give circular reasoning a shot. If implemented correctly it becomes a lot like running solver without having to run solver.
 
I know it won't run properly in Linux under LibreOffice, but I gave it a shot anyway. As @balrog stated, right out of the starting blocks it is looking for a file that resides only on your computer.
 
I made some corrections to a few things this morning.

Revised version is up.
 
A few more corrections this morning.

Thanks to @h22lude for the heads up. Quick summary:

1.) I wasn't properly accounting for the starter wort (vitality wort) amount in the strike volume;

2.) There was an error in the extract calcs. To make a long story short, conversion efficiency wasn't properly attached to the dissolved first wort extract value.
 
Version 1.14 is up.

I notice a small error that was using Strike Volume to calculate mineral concentrations at the various stages. It should have been HLT Volume, since those who dose minerals in the HLT have to account for vessel losses, etc. for their concentrations. Those not using an HLT simply leave the HLT losses blank and HLT Volume = Strike Volume.

Not a huge deal but an important one for HLT users.
 
v1.15 is up.

@Silver_Is_Money you may want to grab this one and follow the Libre Office instructions on the settings page.

One of the members at the Low Oxygen Brewing forum figured out how to go into the settings and set Libre to auto-recalculate cells.
 
Preferences is Windows terminology. I made the change (albeit a bit differently, and under Options) in LibreOffice for Linux, setting Excel 2007 and newer to "Always Recalculate", and upon returning to the spreadsheet I was immediately greeted with a "Basic Run Time Error '423' Range". Once again I had to kill the spreadsheet to exit it.

I then reloaded it and the same error occurred.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
Preferences is Windows terminology. I made the change (albeit a bit differently, and under Options) in LibreOffice for Linux, setting Excel 2007 and newer to "Always Recalculate", and upon returning to the spreadsheet I was immediately greeted with a "Basic Run Time Error '423' Range". Once again I had to kill the spreadsheet to exit it.

I then reloaded it and the same error occurred.
Click to expand...

Ah! The plot thickens. Not only is it a Libre issue, but also a Linux issue.

I'm trying to help you man!
 
RPIScotty said:
Ah! The plot thickens. Not only is it a Libre issue, but also a Linux issue.

I'm trying to help you man!
Click to expand...

Did the person using LibreOffice in Windows install the optional "Non-Linear Solver" package? I do not have it installed on my present Linux system, but it should be available. I only have the "default" Linux/LibreOffice Solver that can find solutions for linear equations.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
Did the person using LibreOffice in Windows install the optional "Non-Linear Solver" package? I do not have it installed on my present Linux system, but it should be available. I only have the "default" Linux/LibreOffice Solver that can find solutions for linear equations.
Click to expand...

The new sheet doesn't use the solver at all.
 
OK! In the mean time I went ahead and installed the non-linear add-on to my Solver anyway.

Now back to the problem. This code line seems to be where it is always hanging up:

113 VStrike = Sheet3.Range("W21").Value
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
OK! In the mean time I went ahead and installed the non-linear add-on to my Solver anyway.

Now back to the problem. This code line seems to be where it is always hanging up:

113 VStrike = Sheet3.Range("W21").Value
Click to expand...

Pull down the latest version and try that. I just updated some background stuff.
 
Bingo, it works now! Without changing anything else to the downloaded program, I added 3 grams CaCl2, 4 grams CaSO4, and 3.82 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, and mash pHz went to 5.400. Is this the same for you, as if so, I believe you have conquered the 'LibreOffice Calc' issue.

I do have my LibreOffice set to "Always Recalculate" Excel 2007 and newer spreadsheets. The Linux pathway to this setting is:

Tools, Options, LibreOffice Calc, Formula, ...
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
Bingo, it works now! Without changing anything else to the downloaded program, I added 3 grams CaCl2, 4 grams CaSO4, and 3.82 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, and mash pHz went to 5.400. Is this the same for you, as if so, I believe you have conquered the 'LibreOffice Calc' issue.

I do have my LibreOffice set to "Always Recalculate" Excel 2007 and newer spreadsheets. The Linux pathway to this setting is:

Tools, Options, LibreOffice Calc, Formula, ...
Click to expand...

There you go! Enjoy!
 
v1.16 is up.

This fixes an error with Lactic and Phosphoric Acid Normality and by extension the acid estimates.

EDIT: New upload had a goof in it. Correct version is live now.
 
Last edited:
I use Linux and have this open in LibreOffice 6.1.5.2. Trying to sort it all out, but it is responding to my entries but no pH yet just showing ###.
 
oldwhiskers said:
I use Linux and have this open in LibreOffice 6.1.5.2. Trying to sort it all out, but it is responding to my entries but no pH yet just showing ###.
Click to expand...

Yeah I’m not sure it likes Linux or Libre Office.
 

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