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This is very clearly great work & should be helpful to many.
My question would be whilst predicting the IBU of a given brew, how important is the prediction of alcohol?
One other thought, how well suited is this to Kit brews, particularly those modified with extra malt & enhancers?
 
peterlonz said:
This is very clearly great work & should be helpful to many.
My question would be whilst predicting the IBU of a given brew, how important is the prediction of alcohol?
Click to expand...

Not important at all. IBU predictions all take place pre-fermentation, i.e. no alcohol present.

peterlonz said:
One other thought, how well suited is this to Kit brews, particularly those modified with extra malt & enhancers?
Click to expand...

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking? Do you mean all grain batches with extra grains and sugars? If so, then it will accommodate them fine.

If you are talking about extract batches, it isn't suited at all, as this sheet if for all-grain brewing.

Did I answer both of these questions well enough?
 
RPIScotty said:
Not important at all. IBU predictions all take place pre-fermentation, i.e. no alcohol present.



I'm not exactly sure what you are asking? Do you mean all grain batches with extra grains and sugars? If so, then it will accommodate them fine.

If you are talking about extract batches, it isn't suited at all, as this sheet if for all-grain brewing.

Did I answer both of these questions well enough?
Click to expand...

Yes:
Not suited to brew made from extract kits (the so called K&K brews).
Pity about that, I wonder if modification could be made so that extract brewers could benefit also?
Regarding alcohol, I was trying to ask if it is useful to predict the ABV; after all it's not rocket science to be able to estimate from the amount of fermentables what the final ABV will be, within perhaps + or - 0.5%?
Thanks for the response.
 
peterlonz said:
Yes:
Not suited to brew made from extract kits (the so called K&K brews).
Pity about that, I wonder if modification could be made so that extract brewers could benefit also?
Regarding alcohol, I was trying to ask if it is useful to predict the ABV; after all it's not rocket science to be able to estimate from the amount of fermentables what the final ABV will be, within perhaps + or - 0.5%?
Thanks for the response.
Click to expand...

Well, the point of the sheet is pH estimation for AG brewing so I don’t see the point in involving extract brewing.

The sheet predicts ABV through ABW and Real Attenuation. I was confused by your original statement as you mentioned IBU.
 
skarp0ye said:
Very interesting, good job. Is A.J.'s data publicly available?
Click to expand...
It's not posted anywhere if that's what you mean but you can certainly have it if you want it. Send me a PM with and e-mail address. You can also have the basic functions that do the fundamental calculations such as the charge on water, the charge on malt, find mash pH etc.

The current test bed is an Excel spreadsheet where they run as VBA functions but I'm sure you will be able to port them to Pascal or FORTRAN or anything you like. That workbook also contains the malt data so that's what I'll be sending.

I think the Solver is pretty much out of the picture at this point. It is a miraculously powerful tool 99.99% of whose power is not needed for the problem of finding mash pH. It is not a multivariate problem, had no singularities, is not constrained and is almost linear. Three of 4 steps of Newton-Raphson are sufficient and execute much faster than the Solver plus you don't have to push a button. The estimated pH just updates any time you change anything it depends on.

The other thing I wanted to comment on here was the malt models. Current pH prediction software (I've started calling it "First Generation") suffers from two error sources. The first is that the various programs use many approximations to come up with a pH estimate in order to be able to use a simple formula which represents the solution of a linear equation. The problem isn't linear and thus an iterative solution is required. This is easy enough to do but those of us 'sophisticated' enough to grasp this point didn't know any better than to use the cumbersome Solver to get that iterative solution. The new algortihms solve the forced linearization problem and make it easy to get pH estimates which consider things like the alkalinity titration end point pH, water sample pH and the dependence on mash pH of the strengths of lactic acid, phosphoric acid and sodium bicarbonate all of which are ignored in the first generation stuff. But what the new approach does not solve is the problem wherein robust software is fed bad malt data. The malt model we are using is, I believe, adequate to model any malt you will ever encounter but if you put bad parameters into that model it will hand you back bad data. Very good predictions can be had using this method if one has the four numbers that accurately describe the malt lying in the sack on his brewery floor. If the four numbers he has were not measured on the malt lying on the brewery floor but on a bag of the same malt bought a month ago from the same maltster with the same lot number as the sack he has this isn't quite so good because the malt has aged and taken up moisture in the month but it's going to be pretty good. If the malt he has is from the same maltster but from year ago then that's not nearly as good because the barley was from a different season but it's still probably representative. If the numbers the brewer has are from another malt of the same type but a different maltster, a different season etc. or from a malt that is the same color as some other malt clearly they may not well represent what's lying on the floor at all.

It's clear from some of the earlier postings that people are thinking about this and that's where I think the challenge lies because I think I've got the math licked and I think I've found folks who can program that model and put it in a package that is going to be easy to use and that doesn't crash every 5 minutes.
 
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@ajdelange very well stated. Thank you for sharing your 'voltmeter' and knowledge with us. Going forward incorporating your second generation approach to mash pH prediction into my projects is a top priority.
 
I have been following this thread, Silver is Money's "thought experiment" regarding current pH prediction software, and a couple others for the past couple months. I would like to thank Silver, AJ, Scotty, Screwybrewer, and anyone else working behind the scenes to solve problems and create the second generation software. But more importantly, for the knowledge I've gained on the subject. When I plug numbers into a calculator, I now understand WHY the results are what they are and what affect each addition is SUPPOSED to have, instead of blindly trusting. Thank you.
 
@RPIScotty: I am brewing on Sunday. Would love to give your work a try and would commit to quick feedback to you. Excited to try this. What is the mechanism for gaining access?
 
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DownHillonWater said:
@RPIScotty: I am brewing on Sunday. Would love to give your work a try and would commit to quick feedback to you. Excited to try this. What is the mechanism for gaining access?
Click to expand...

In the next week or so I am going to be posting a very stripped down version of the sheet. There are others that are now working on some stuff that I believe will turn out to be more solidly composed than my initial stab.

I plan to simplify the malt classes down to Base, Wheat/Rye, Roast, Crystal, etc. and give a generally more simplistic calculation structure.
 
RPIScotty said:
In the next week or so I am going to be posting a very stripped down version of the sheet. There are others that are now working on some stuff that I believe will turn out to be more solidly composed than my initial stab.

I plan to simplify the malt classes down to Base, Wheat/Rye, Roast, Crystal, etc. and give a generally more simplistic calculation structure.
Click to expand...

I'm standing in wait to see if it will run properly in LibreOffice.
 
RIPScotty I understand not wanting to give away control of the product or others to incorporate into their product without authorization. Have you thought about embedding the excel document into a webpage? I've seen MS Excel spreadsheets embedded before, I just don't know if the same password protections hold through. If so then it might be a workaround for those that don't have the office licence. Just a thought :mug:
 
Here is something I whipped up for people to use as they see fit. I'm calling it "Brewing Engine Lite" as it removes all the extra functions except for pH estimation. Available in % and Mass based grain input:

Mass - http://www.********************/wp-...0/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81M-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

Percent - http://www.********************/wp-...0/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81P-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

I'll admit to being woefully behind on the current state of our collective Gen II pH discussions, but this implements the basic Gen II structures using a linear form with DI pH and a1. I'm using this simplified linear approach because i am not yet confident that the assumptions I made about a2 and a3 values. I'll work on catching up with A.J.'s recent endeavors and trying to work that in, especially since it will help people without solver access use the sheet.
 
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@Silver_Is_Money @ScrewyBrewer @ajdelange

Background: I took my rather involved Brewing Engine and whittled it down to the bare necessities. I made it linear around pH_DI and a1 for simplicity and because a2 and a3 were only measured for a handful of malts. It's not perfect but it's a simple Gen II implementation that can be built upon.

I personally think A.J.'s full sheet is the real way to go but mine has a certain look and format that can be adapted into other sheets.

UPDATED 11/5/18:

I added back the Metabisulfite pH contribution.

Mass - http://www.********************/wp-...1/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81M-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

Percent - http://www.********************/wp-...1/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81P-UNPROTECTED.xlsm
 
RPIScotty said:
I personally think A.J.'s full sheet is the real way to go but mine has a certain look and format that can be adapted into other sheets.
Click to expand...

Don't forget that my goal is to provide a set of functions that embody the science to real programmers i.e. guys who would know how to utilize them in products with that "certain look". Yes, my spreadsheet is really, really cool to a geek like me but it has little value other than as a demonstration platform for the functions.
 
RPIScotty said:
Here is something I whipped up for people to use as they see fit. I'm calling it "Brewing Engine Lite" as it removes all the extra functions except for pH estimation. Available in % and Mass based grain input:
Click to expand...

Remembering our discussions about which was preferred I decided the appropriate thing to do would be offer both in the same program. I wrote my demo sheet to take mass but added a button which normalizes all the masses to a value put into a separate cell. If yo want 2 pounds of this and 8 pounds of that you just enter 2 and 8 but if you want 20% of this and 80% of that you enter 20 and 80. Ultimately if you do this you need to determine 20% and 80% of what in order to know how much of each malt to buy or to experiment with wort strength vs total grain in an 80/20 blend. If you want to try 12 lbs total you enter 12 lbs in the total desired grains cell and press the normalize button. The invoked subroutine adds up all the masses, divides by 12 and multiplies each mass by that factor giving 2.4 lbs and 9.6 lbs. Note that this mode is not only viable for use with percentages but with proportions. If you have a recipe that produces 12 P beer and want to produce one with 14 P simply enter 14/12 times the total mass of the existing recipe grains into the desired mass cell and push the normalization button.
 
ajdelange said:
Remembering our discussions about which was preferred I decided the appropriate thing to do would be offer both in the same program. I wrote my demo sheet to take mass but added a button which normalizes all the masses to a value put into a separate cell. If yo want 2 pounds of this and 8 pounds of that you just enter 2 and 8 but if you want 20% of this and 80% of that you enter 20 and 80. Ultimately if you do this you need to determine 20% and 80% of what in order to know how much of each malt to buy or to experiment with wort strength vs total grain in an 80/20 blend. If you want to try 12 lbs total you enter 12 lbs in the total desired grains cell and press the normalize button. The invoked subroutine adds up all the masses, divides by 12 and multiplies each mass by that factor giving 2.4 lbs and 9.6 lbs. Note that this mode is not only viable for use with percentages but with proportions. If you have a recipe that produces 12 P beer and want to produce one with 14 P simply enter 14/12 times the total mass of the existing recipe grains into the desired mass cell and push the normalization button.
Click to expand...

I definitely didn’t disregard those discussions. In reality, I have not had the time to fully digest all your sheet’s innovations.

Winter is fast approaching here in Syracuse and between readying the home for the white stuff and redoing the floors in my house (not to mention my renewed interest in guitar amplification, effects pedals, etc.), I just have not had time to dedicate to brewing related stuff.

I’m hoping to keep the simpler format I have now and incorporate much of the stuff you have behind the scenes and you and I can shoot the breeze offline to help me get a handle on what’s what when the time comes.

I imagine there are at least a few people WAY ahead of me when it comes to the nuance of your sheet.
 
RPIScotty said:
@Silver_Is_Money @ScrewyBrewer @ajdelange

Background: I took my rather involved Brewing Engine and whittled it down to the bare necessities. I made it linear around pH_DI and a1 for simplicity and because a2 and a3 were only measured for a handful of malts. It's not perfect but it's a simple Gen II implementation that can be built upon.

I personally think A.J.'s full sheet is the real way to go but mine has a certain look and format that can be adapted into other sheets.
Click to expand...
@RPIScotty thank you for sharing I'll make time to try it out over the next few weeks.
 
ScrewyBrewer said:
Ahh ok. I forgot you aren't using a Windows or a Mac computer.
Click to expand...

I sure wish that RPIScotty's spreadsheet would work in LibreOffice. I installed the non-linear Solver add-on. But the macros kick out on coding errors. Apparently LibreOffice wasn't legally able to fully duplicate Excel's macro coding. If I was savvy enough I could re-code them, but alas I am not that savvy.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
I sure wish that RPIScotty's spreadsheet would work in LibreOffice. I installed the non-linear Solver add-on. But the macros kick out on coding errors. Apparently LibreOffice wasn't legally able to fully duplicate Excel's macro coding. If I was savvy enough I could re-code them, but alas I am not that savvy.
Click to expand...
From what I've read macros are a lot more complicated to code in LibreOffice too.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
I sure wish that RPIScotty's spreadsheet would work in LibreOffice. I installed the non-linear Solver add-on. But the macros kick out on coding errors. Apparently LibreOffice wasn't legally able to fully duplicate Excel's macro coding. If I was savvy enough I could re-code them, but alas I am not that savvy.
Click to expand...

When I get some time in the next few weeks I’ll be trying to implement A.J.’s non-solver solution. That should get rid of the solver macros.

Hopefully Libreoffice can handle the background function required.
 
@RPIScotty: Thanks very much for making this public. I've opened the worksheet and followed the instructions to enable Solver as indicated in a blank worksheet. When I then open Brewing Engine Lite, the solve buttons do not generate spreadsheet changes when clicked. In addition the AltF11-Tools-References... menu item is dimmed. Any thoughts on how to get this working? Would love to provide any help to you that I can.
 
DownHillonWater said:
@RPIScotty: Thanks very much for making this public. I've opened the worksheet and followed the instructions to enable Solver as indicated in a blank worksheet. When I then open Brewing Engine Lite, the solve buttons do not generate spreadsheet changes when clicked. In addition the AltF11-Tools-References... menu item is dimmed. Any thoughts on how to get this working? Would love to provide any help to you that I can.
Click to expand...

Try unprotecting the pH Estimation tab then clicking the buttons.
 
For all those who have previously downloaded BE Lite, please dispose of the copies you currently have and use these:

Mass-based Grain input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81M-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

Percentage-based Grain input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81P-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

There was an error in how the dQmalt function was calculating due to a conversion error from the Metric/English switch.
 
RPIScotty said:
For all those who have previously downloaded BE Lite, please dispose of the copies you currently have and use these:

Mass-based Grain input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81M-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

Percentage-based Grain input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81P-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

There was an error in how the dQmalt function was calculating due to a conversion error from the Metric/English switch.
Click to expand...

I'm getting "Basic Error #35" on the macros under LibreOffice, but this is the first time the buttons appeared for me. It chokes when it gets to 'Solver OK'. It appears however that it is getting a bit closer to working for me.
 
RPIScotty said:
For all those who have previously downloaded BE Lite, please dispose of the copies you currently have and use these:

Mass-based Grain input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81M-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

Percentage-based Grain input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81P-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

There was an error in how the dQmalt function was calculating due to a conversion error from the Metric/English switch.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing this. I'd like to test it out, but these links aren't working. Do you have an updated link?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Zinge said:
Thanks for sharing this. I'd like to test it out, but these links aren't working. Do you have an updated link?
Click to expand...

Mass-Based Grain Input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81M-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

Percentage-Based Grain Input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81P-UNPROTECTED.xlsm
 
RPIScotty said:
Mass-Based Grain Input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81M-UNPROTECTED.xlsm

Percentage-Based Grain Input:

http://www.********************/wp-...2/Brewing-Engine-Lite-v0.81P-UNPROTECTED.xlsm
Click to expand...
Can't seem to get it to work on Excel for Mac. Probably due to Excel for Mac being essentially a stripped down version of MS Excel.
 
racerex said:
Can't seem to get it to work on Excel for Mac. Probably due to Excel for Mac being essentially a stripped down version of MS Excel.
Click to expand...

Excel for Mac has no Solver.

I’m working on trying to liberate the sheet from th solver.
 
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