Suggestions for Hefe Improvements

[bruhaha]

I racked my 5.5G batch of Hefe to keg this morning and was a bit disappointed in a few areas needing improvement.

I milled 5# each of Light Wheat and German Pils Malts. One ounce of Hallertau full boil 60 min. Fermented 62F for 7 days, stepped up to 65F for 6 days, 13 days total in FV. Used WLP300 from 1L starter, OG 1.050, FG 1.010. Had great efficiency from the mash.

Very slight banana ester and light clove phenol, so that goal was spot on. My biggest issue is the color is VERY light and lemony yellow. Almost like an Allagash White Ale. Also the mouthfeel is very thin and lacking body. Just seems watery and lacks depth and character.

I don't have high hopes for this beer since it has the above flawed characteristics. Can anyone suggest improvements for my next Hefe?

 

[Double_D]

You could use regular instead of light wheat. 2 row instead of pils. Let it condition and age for a while. It will taste different carbonated. I like my hefes on the dry side anyway. What temp did you use to mash?

 

[Rayi]

Same as above recommendations but add 8oz Crystal 20L or carpilis

 

[Double_D]

Or floor malted pils.

 

[flars]

Increasing the wheat to 60% to 65% of the grain bill will add body. Will also add the traditional haze for a wheat beer.

 

[Moose_MI]

RO water? Good drinking water can make bad hefe's

 

[bruhaha]

Answering some posed questions:

I mashed in at 153F, wrapped with insulation blankets and did not apply heat for 60 min. Temp was 149F. Fired burner, slowly brought to 165 for mash out.

RO water. Added 1/2 teaspoon each of CaCl and Espom.

My LHBS owner suggested increasing wheat bill to 60-70% and continue Pilsen malts to see what difference this makes.

I suggested .5# Crystal 20L. He says try one thing at a time to know how that one change impacts the beer. Makes sense.

He threw me a curve ball: Says not a good idea to keg a Hefe. Says the yeast is the flavor component and the dip tube will draw my yeast out in the first few pints. First time I heard this one. Suggests bottling only so each bottle will have a yeast slurry to swirl for flavor.

Told him I was going to do another Hefe brew soon with this WLP300 harvested yeast slurry. Says to do it quickly like within 2 weeks else yeast will lose vitality. Seems 1 quart jar of loosely sealed slurry in fridge should last longer than a couple of weeks???

 

[Sadu]

I just bottled my first hefe yesterday and have similar concerns to you, very similar recipe. I would be interested to see how yours comes out.

Mine was 46% wheat, 46% pils, 8% toffee. Also using hallertau. Dry WB-06 yeast. Did a protein rest with the mash. Mine spent 3 weeks in primary (1 week at 65f/18c and then cooler after that). Came out very pale, transparent like a lager. OG 1.046 / FG 1.009. Taste at bottling was watery and lacking body, nice smell though.

I actually have a feeling mine will come out ok after carbonation. My last brew I was unimpressed with at bottling time then it got a lot better with a bit of carbonation.

I'd say keep an open mind until it's carbonated, that's what I'm doing. Would love to hear how yours comes out. I was thinking of using 65% wheat next time and some crystal for a bit more colour. Next time will do less time in the fermentor, maybe 10 days (assuming FG is reached). And I might do liquid yeast next time, but that depends if I'm happy with the level of banana in the finished product.

 

[bruhaha]

I just bottled my first hefe yesterday and have similar concerns to you, very similar recipe. I would be interested to see how yours comes out.

Mine was 46% wheat, 46% pils, 8% toffee. Also using hallertau. Dry WB-06 yeast. Did a protein rest with the mash. Mine spent 3 weeks in primary (1 week at 65f/18c and then cooler after that). Came out very pale, transparent like a lager. OG 1.046 / FG 1.009. Taste at bottling was watery and lacking body, nice smell though.

I actually have a feeling mine will come out ok after carbonation. My last brew I was unimpressed with at bottling time then it got a lot better with a bit of carbonation.

I'd say keep an open mind until it's carbonated, that's what I'm doing. Would love to hear how yours comes out. I was thinking of using 65% wheat next time and some crystal for a bit more colour. Next time will do less time in the fermentor, maybe 10 days (assuming FG is reached). And I might do liquid yeast next time, but that depends if I'm happy with the level of banana in the finished product.

You made me feel more hopeful saying the mouth feel will likely improve after fully carbonating. One advantage of kegging is the ability to easily control and adjust the carb volumes. I think you are on target saying this, and considering the high carb levels I'll apply, this will bring another dimension into play.

Regarding the color, Hefes have a very wide range of acceptable colors that make the grade. I suspect we are on the low end, but I think a small 20L addition will bring us up slightly. I use BeerSmith so this would be beneficial to run these grain bills into.

Also interested in how your banana ester comes out after conditioning. Mine is very subtle now so we'll see soon. If too subtle at tap time, I'll try fermenting a bit higher around 68F next batch as a comparison.

Please keep me posted in a couple of week!

 

[Morrey]

Answering some posed questions:

I mashed in at 153F, wrapped with insulation blankets and did not apply heat for 60 min. Temp was 149F. Fired burner, slowly brought to 165 for mash out.

RO water. Added 1/2 teaspoon each of CaCl and Espom.

My LHBS owner suggested increasing wheat bill to 60-70% and continue Pilsen malts to see what difference this makes.

I suggested .5# Crystal 20L. He says try one thing at a time to know how that one change impacts the beer. Makes sense.

He threw me a curve ball: Says not a good idea to keg a Hefe. Says the yeast is the flavor component and the dip tube will draw my yeast out in the first few pints. First time I heard this one. Suggests bottling only so each bottle will have a yeast slurry to swirl for flavor.

Told him I was going to do another Hefe brew soon with this WLP300 harvested yeast slurry. Says to do it quickly like within 2 weeks else yeast will lose vitality. Seems 1 quart jar of loosely sealed slurry in fridge should last longer than a couple of weeks???

Interesting the point your LHBS owner made about NOT kegging a Hefeweisen. My Hefes seem to be low flocculating so the yeast stays nicely in suspension for the duration of a 5G soda keg.

I know cloudy is a typical trait of a nice Hefe. But consider some brewers filter wheat beers for clarity. I suppose I am missing the owner's point. Do any other Hefe brewers have thoughts on kegging a wheat beer?

 

[Double_D]

I keg everything. If it settles, yeast can be resuspended easily.

I took a tour at Sierra Nevada and the guy behind the bar at the end said they invert their kegs every morning to keep the yeast up.

I can't imagine a thin bodied wheat being produced at 153. That is definitely not my experience with hefe.

I usually let my hefes free rise from 62 ambient to 65 or 66 ambient after the first 72 hours.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Interesting the point your LHBS owner made about NOT kegging a Hefeweisen. My Hefes seem to be low flocculating so the yeast stays nicely in suspension for the duration of a 5G soda keg.

I know cloudy is a typical trait of a nice Hefe. But consider some brewers filter wheat beers for clarity. I suppose I am missing the owner's point. Do any other Hefe brewers have thoughts on kegging a wheat beer?

I've only made a handful of batches of hefe but always bottle. I've always just heard "that's the way you do it!". And when I pour I'll make sure to pour a little more yeast than normal.

 

[Sadu]

You made me feel more hopeful saying the mouth feel will likely improve after fully carbonating. One advantage of kegging is the ability to easily control and adjust the carb volumes. I think you are on target saying this, and considering the high carb levels I'll apply, this will bring another dimension into play.

Regarding the color, Hefes have a very wide range of acceptable colors that make the grade. I suspect we are on the low end, but I think a small 20L addition will bring us up slightly. I use BeerSmith so this would be beneficial to run these grain bills into.

Also interested in how your banana ester comes out after conditioning. Mine is very subtle now so we'll see soon. If too subtle at tap time, I'll try fermenting a bit higher around 68F next batch as a comparison.

Please keep me posted in a couple of week!

I couldn't wait a couple of weeks, and glad I didn't. My hefe came out pretty good in the end - not without flaws - but a lot better than expected. Colour has darkened a bit, and it's more opaque than before. I'm getting a hint of banana - I'd like a bit more banana next time but this is ok. Hardly any head, even when poured from a distance.

Mouthfeel is lighter than I'd like, it's still a bit watery. I got poor efficiency from the mash and I think this is to blame, plus a low wheat content to begin with.
The yeast flavour is pretty good, I'd be happy to use this WB-06 dry yeast again. I saved the yeast cake so my next hefe is going to be real cheeeeeep. Using under 1 oz of hops helps with that too.

What would I change next time?
- Definitely more wheat. Jamil's recipe uses 50:50 wheatils. I'll probably try that or 60:40.
- I'm going to forget about the protein rest and concentrate on doing a good single infusion mash at 67c/152f.
- Jamil also ferments at 17c/62f saying he tried all kinds of different temps and this came out best.
- And I'll bottle as soon as FG readings are stable.
- I'd be tempted to toss in a bit of crystal to darken it a bit. But for the next batch I think that's too many variables being changed so maybe stick with wheat and pilsner malts only.

 

[bruhaha]

I couldn't wait a couple of weeks, and glad I didn't. My hefe came out pretty good in the end - not without flaws - but a lot better than expected. Colour has darkened a bit, and it's more opaque than before. I'm getting a hint of banana - I'd like a bit more banana next time but this is ok. Hardly any head, even when poured from a distance.

Mouthfeel is lighter than I'd like, it's still a bit watery. I got poor efficiency from the mash and I think this is to blame, plus a low wheat content to begin with.
The yeast flavour is pretty good, I'd be happy to use this WB-06 dry yeast again. I saved the yeast cake so my next hefe is going to be real cheeeeeep. Using under 1 oz of hops helps with that too.

What would I change next time?
- Definitely more wheat. Jamil's recipe uses 50:50 wheatils. I'll probably try that or 60:40.
- I'm going to forget about the protein rest and concentrate on doing a good single infusion mash at 67c/152f.
- Jamil also ferments at 17c/62f saying he tried all kinds of different temps and this came out best.
- And I'll bottle as soon as FG readings are stable.
- I'd be tempted to toss in a bit of crystal to darken it a bit. But for the next batch I think that's too many variables being changed so maybe stick with wheat and pilsner malts only.

Thanks for the report and glad we can bounce ideas to adjust our beers.

Mine is quite young still but I can see improvements after carbing. Carbing at 3.4 volumes helped quite a bit, still a bit watery and anemic looking. Great head and head retention. I did get good eff% with a fine grind in BIAB...over 80% total efficiency.

Next time:
*Adjust water chemistry ions slightly (RO water) with 1/2 teaspoon each
CaCl and Epsom salts.
*Add .5# Crystal 20L mainly for color
*More wheat malts...previously did 50/50 wheat to pils
Think I'll try 6# Wheat, 3.5# German Pils, .5# Crystal 20L for color
*Stick with the yeast slurry I harvested off the old batch. (WLP300)
*Change ferm temp to 65F week one, finish at 68F til done. 62F prior.
*Stay with one oz Hallertau full boil
*Increase boil from 60 to 90 min

My banana is very understated, and unless it develops more within the next few days, I'd say it needs amping up some. Temp should handle that.

Don't get me wrong, besides looking anemic like watery lemonade, the beer is very acceptable. Dry, but acceptable. I won't dump it for sure. Seems light and refreshing during these warm days. It finished out at over 5% ABV so its no weenie beer.

I'll keep you posted and I hope you'll do the same. One thing that you said makes excellent sense, and that is to make one adjustment at a time. Good thinking as that one change can make or break the beer. Too many changes at once and you'll never know that impact of one change as opposed to other changes. And I think wheat to pils ratio is the biggie here.

 

[Oldskewl]

I couldn't wait a couple of weeks, and glad I didn't. My hefe came out pretty good in the end - not without flaws - but a lot better than expected. Colour has darkened a bit, and it's more opaque than before. I'm getting a hint of banana - I'd like a bit more banana next time but this is ok. Hardly any head, even when poured from a distance.

Mouthfeel is lighter than I'd like, it's still a bit watery. I got poor efficiency from the mash and I think this is to blame, plus a low wheat content to begin with.
The yeast flavour is pretty good, I'd be happy to use this WB-06 dry yeast again. I saved the yeast cake so my next hefe is going to be real cheeeeeep. Using under 1 oz of hops helps with that too.

What would I change next time?
- Definitely more wheat. Jamil's recipe uses 50:50 wheatils. I'll probably try that or 60:40.
- I'm going to forget about the protein rest and concentrate on doing a good single infusion mash at 67c/152f.
- Jamil also ferments at 17c/62f saying he tried all kinds of different temps and this came out best.
- And I'll bottle as soon as FG readings are stable.
- I'd be tempted to toss in a bit of crystal to darken it a bit. But for the next batch I think that's too many variables being changed so maybe stick with wheat and pilsner malts only.

Be careful you don't pull the beer off the yeast too early. I kegged one recently at 11 days. FG was reached but the beer had a very sulfury smell and bitterness to it. And it never went away after 2 months in the keg(barley drinkable). Make sure you give it some time to clean up. 2-3 weeks seems to be what most people recommend.

 

[bruhaha]

Be careful you don't pull the beer off the yeast too early. I kegged one recently at 11 days. FG was reached but the beer had a very sulfury smell and bitterness to it. And it never went away after 2 months in the keg(barley drinkable). Make sure you give it some time to clean up. 2-3 weeks seems to be what most people recommend.

Good point. What temp did you ferment at that threw those sulfur odors?

 

[Oldskewl]

66f

 

[Bassman2003]

I will share my experience with trying to brew this style for many years. I do not think you need the huge amount of wheat. Or at least I do not think increasing wheat will affect the mouthfeel that much.

1) Try some different mash temps - Maybe a Hoch-Kurz mash (145f for 25min and 158 for 30-40 min then 170f mashout) Maybe try to maintain a 152-3 temp with heat for entire mash.

2) Add more Calcium Chloride for mouthfeel

3) Lower you pitch rate to about 1/2 a vial of WLP300 for more banana flavor. Make a 1L starter with 1/2 a vial.

4) Ferment at 62-64f with a ramp only after at least a few days. Higher temps just encourage other flavors. You do not want to let the yeast go crazy and blow. The cooler temps keep them under control and operating for best flavor.

5) Acid rest at 105f or 111f if your system can do it for clove complexity.

At its core, Hefeweizen is a very malty beer. So first try to establish the malt base in your recipe/brewing technique before moving on to the complex flavors. Yeast & fermentation is very important with this style. Water chemistry can impact as well.

Hope this helps brew (imho) one of the hardest beers to nail (like you are in Bavaria) on the homebrew level.

 

[jwalker1140]

*Add .5# Crystal 20L mainly for color

If it were my beer, instead of crystal, I'd add some Munich or Vienna malt to get the color I want, and to pick up a touch of extra maltiness. I have a Paulaner clone recipe that calls for 0.25lb Munich and I've heard of people getting great results using all Munich in place of 2-row or Pilsner. YMMV. Good luck.

 

[kh54s10]

I am not at all surprised by the color. The malts used are very low SRM so it should be very light.

I am not too versed in the style but would also recommend more wheat.

 

[rmr9]

I second jwalker, I definitely like some munich in my hefe. I go 60% wheat, 20% pils, 20% light munich and it always comes out beautifully malty and bready. Also darkens the color just a tad.