Stout with 100% pale/pilsner malt

[Gengasi]

I was talking to a fellow brewer a while back and he said something i haven't gotten my mind off. He said that a great way to make darker beer with a more roasted taste and aroma is to use 100% base malt such as pilsner/pale malt and just boil the heck out of it. He said he had done this a few times with great results but I haven't talked to him since as to what technique he used. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[Qhrumphf]

You're not gonna make a stout that way. Some use this to make historical beers, and you'll get some darkening, but more of melanoidin/caramel/toffee character, and you'll decrease beer stability doing it. And even then it's not gonna give you the roastiness of a stout.

 

[BigEd]

A longer boil time will deepen the color of a beer but I don't see any way you are going to get to the color of a stout from 100% pale malt with that technique.

 

[Gengasi]

You're not gonna make a stout that way. Some use this to make historical beers, and you'll get some darkening, but more of melanoidin/caramel/toffee character, and you'll decrease beer stability doing it. And even then it's not gonna give you the roastiness of a stout.

A longer boil time will deepen the color of a beer but I don't see any way you are going to get to the color of a stout from 100% pale malt with that technique.

That might be the case; Haven't tried it for myself. As far as I understood he boiled it down to a super dense wort on very high temperature that somehow made the beer super dark, then water was reapplied to reach desired FG.
EDIT: Kind of the way if you boil away to much water you will scorch your stew/soup, only in a controlled manner.

 

[Stand]

I make Belgian Candy Syrups sometimes, and you could run an experiment with that process to see if you like the result. Take some Pilsner DME and bring it up to like 260 degrees and then drop the temp back down to make a syrup and see if you like the resulting flavor. Concentrated Maillard syrup, and I bet it would be pitch black. I'm about to go try it for giggles.

 

[Gengasi]

I make Belgian Candy Syrups sometimes, and you could run an experiment with that process to see if you like the result. Take some Pilsner DME and bring it up to like 260 degrees and then drop the temp back down to make a syrup and see if you like the resulting flavor. Concentrated Maillard syrup, and I bet it would be pitch black. I'm about to go try it for giggles.

That's would be interesting

 

[Bramling Cross]

In the mid-90s I got so sick of crystal malt (most recipes were a derivation on 10lbs of 2-row and 1lb of crystal) that I started pulling between a pint and a quart of first runnings and boiling it hard until it grew dark and syrupy. The result was notably different than crystal malts, but far, far closer to crystal malt than the roast barley and patent malts that define stout.

My experience suggests that to create a stout-like beer (at least in color) from only pale or pils would require a very long duration boil that would concentrate the wort to a point that it would then need to be diluted back to a beer-like viscosity after the desired color had been achieved. A pound of roast barley in the grist strikes me as an easier way to make something that looks, tastes, and brews like a stout.

I'm all in favor of doing dumb stuff in the brewery, but I'm missing the point on this one.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Even if you could get it to that point (I'm not sure if the character would be the same, very dark sugar syrups are not stout-like), I wouldn't expect a good tasting result.

 

[Stand]

I mean Decoction is sort of the same thing, but tend to agree that you're not going to really get a stout. I threw some DME in a little water in microwave, and I wouldn't recommend that. I'm going to try it in the toaster oven where the heat is steadier. Hot-break is like 10x the volume of liquid.

 

[day_trippr]

"Where's the roast?"
Seems like a prodigious amount of energy used with barely a passing resemblance of a stout in the end...

Cheers!

 

[Gengasi]

So all things considered you would probably get a darker beer but nowhere near a stout Got it

 

[Gengasi]

However isn't the darker malt just barley that's roasted more? Couldn't similar roastiness come from slightly scorching the wort in a controlled manner during the boil? As i mentioned using a heavy boil off, then diluting it back to desired FG? Just hypothetically?

 

[day_trippr]

Simply put, no, you are not going to get anything like "roasted barley". You may get "scorched" if you literally get the SG up into the syrupy 100 point or higher range and keep pumping max heat into the kettle, but most folks will likely say that's not where you want to go

Cheers!

 

[Stand]

Maybe we're going at this the wrong way. You CAN do what he's talking about, but does it make what you want to drink? Is it repeatable? I've never found it hard to get roasted flavor in a stout, maybe that's just me?

P.S. I pulled the DME syrup out of toaster oven, and it tasted like harsh Belgian Candi Syrup. Wouldn't recommend unless you like fruity burnt marshmallows. ;P

 

[Gengasi]

@Stand I have brewed some stouts myself, and have been very pleased with the results. However the question is if you can achieve anything "Stout-like" with just pilsner/pale malt with the only tool being boiling techniques and effectivly "roasting" the wort. As mentioned previously I have no idea if it's possible or if it would be any good at all. Maybe the fermentables will be broken down during the scorching process and you would end up with coal-tasting "beer" or whatever.

 

[Stand]

It probably depends a lot on your equipment. If your kettle has hot-spots, you'll probably get some scorching and that will darken your beer fast. Maybe he has a thin bottom kettle and a jet burner? Maybe he just uses LME and doesn't stir?

Is it possible to darken beer this way? Maybe (it would be hard, and maybe impossible to get as dark as a stout depending on equipment)
Would it taste like I stout? Doubtful (The kinds of Maillard products you're making are closer to Crystal Malts)
Would it be good? Taste is subjective

I dunno man, I sort of want to call Shinanigans on your buddy, but if I did the gods would strike me down for my hubris.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Anyone have any experience with this?

Apparently not (see above posts).

He said he had done this a few times with great results but I haven't talked to him since as to what technique he used.

Any chance you can talk to him to find out what he does?

 

[Gengasi]

It probably depends a lot on your equipment. If your kettle has hot-spots, you'll probably get some scorching and that will darken your beer fast. Maybe he has a thin bottom kettle and a jet burner? Maybe he just uses LME and doesn't stir?

Is it possible to darken beer this way? Maybe (it would be hard, and maybe impossible to get as dark as a stout depending on equipment)
Would it taste like I stout? Doubtful (The kinds of Maillard products you're making are closer to Crystal Malts)
Would it be good? Taste is subjective

I dunno man, I sort of want to call Shinanigans on your buddy, but if I did the gods would strike me down for my hubris.

Might be shinanigans that it went all the way down into stout territory, i don't know. All he said was that he had boiled wort for serious amounts of time and gotten a stout-like beer. Maybe he ment something lighter in color like a porter but that's still quite dark.

Event though it might have been BS its still in my opinion an interesting idea.

 

[Gengasi]

Maybe I'll try it for myself on a small batch and see what comes out in the other end. I can try to chat with him first though

 

[Qhrumphf]

The last time I scorched wort (heating element took issue with a high percentage rye Roggenbier) it tasted and smelled like burned hair. Just saying.

If you insist on trying this, do it. But i am 90% certain the result will be unpalatable and 95% certain even if it's remotely drinkable it'll be nowhere near stout like.

Concentration a little bit to bring out caramel notes is fine. Don't let it go black.

 

[Gengasi]

The last time I scorched wort (heating element took issue with a high percentage rye Roggenbier) it tasted and smelled like burned hair. Just saying.

If you insist on trying this, do it. But i am 90% certain the result will be unpalatable and 95% certain even if it's remotely drinkable it'll be nowhere near stout like.

Concentration a little bit to bring out caramel notes is fine. Don't let it go black.

Sure thing. But will talk to the guy who told me bout this first and see what he says.

 

[Gengasi]

Here I found an article about a "similar" experiment. Quite a bit of color difference. *Yes it was darker in the begging than what a pilsner would be*
https://homebrewacademy.com/metamorphosis-four-hour-boil/
Here is a link to a redditpost regarding a ten hour boil. The pictures are from after the wort is diluted back into starting volume.

 

[day_trippr]

The terse conclusion provided by the author may well be a fair warning not to follow.
I'm guessing aside from some obvious caramel amplified note there likely wasn't much favorable to talk about...

Cheers!

 

[Gengasi]

I talked to the guy right now and he said i could expect something like this. He also said that darkening doesnt come from burning. It comes from the caramelization that occurs and the maillard reaction, as mentioned previously in the thread. To achieve this color you cannot dilute the wort as the point is to condense the flavours and color into on big taste bomb. However he also said that what color you achieve is heavily dependet on what type of equipment you have and the intensity of the boil. I talked to him and a local brewer and found out that a recipie something like this is the way to go for the experiment. Thoughts?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Bock, Scotch Ale, Barleywine, this is viable (but not to the level of scorching as you've deduced, and there are easier and better ways to do it...). It's going to darken, but not be stout-like.

 

[Gengasi]

Bock, Scotch Ale, Barleywine, this is viable (but not to the level of scorching as you've deduced, and there are easier and better ways to do it...). It's going to darken, but not be stout-like.

Apparently not That's how i interpreted what he said at first. Still it's impressive how dark it becomes.

 

[Kold Brygg]

Norwegian brewery Ægir have a Porter called Natt.
This just have just 3.4% chocolate malt.
Everything else is basemalt.

They use something called sinamar to darken the thing.

I've never made this, but tasted the original at several occasions. Superb velvety Porter.

The recipe for anyone interested can be found here.
https://www.aegirbryggeri.no/om-aeg...burg-natt-barrel-aged-i-p-article312-154.html

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sinamar is a Weyermann product. It's basically an extract made from Carafa Special, provides color with minimal flavor or fermentables (not zero but very little). It's good stuff.

 

[Qhrumphf]

A Reinheitsgebot compliant alternative to the ammoniated caramel colorants often used in English beers.

 

[kevin58]

In the UK it was and is still common to adjust color using "brewers caramel". No, it is not caramel. It has nothing to do with caramel. It's just the name of the product which is strictly a coloring agent.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It's make by reacting sugars with ammonia. I don't know the chemistry of it, and while it's very far removed from caramel, I wouldn't go so far as to say "nothing to do with". But it's definitely a confusing name.

 

[cmac62]

@Stand I have brewed some stouts myself, and have been very pleased with the results. However the question is if you can achieve anything "Stout-like" with just pilsner/pale malt with the only tool being boiling techniques and effectivly "roasting" the wort. As mentioned previously I have no idea if it's possible or if it would be any good at all. Maybe the fermentables will be broken down during the scorching process and you would end up with coal-tasting "beer" or whatever.

Of course you could roast/toast the Pils in a toaster oven prior to milling. My understanding is roasting is a dry cooking method and any kind of boiling is by definition wet. I don't think you will never get the flavor of roasted grains by boiling wort. you may get burt, but not roasted. I have used 2+ hour boils on a wee heavy or barley wine and it definitely is for the flavor. I'm guessing with a really long boil, if you boil off enough water, you can get to maillard temps, even caramel temps, but it will not be the same as roasted grain. Good luck.