Stout Critique

[Maverick986]

I've wanted to make my own stout recipe for a while, and happen to have a handful of ingredients on hand, which I'm thinking of using together. I'd like some input on the recipe I have put together:

Pale 2-Row - 55%
Maris Otter Caramel Malt - 10%
Flaked Oats - 10%
Flaked Barley - 8%
Triticale - 6% (thinking of increasing this)
Midnight Wheat - 5%
Crystal 15 - 4%
Carafa II - 2%

Hops for estimated 56 IBU
Cluster @ 60min
Cluster @ 30min
Cluster @ 20min

Mash (BIAB) 155 for 60min

Yeast is up for debate, but I have some Omega Saisonstein's Monster OYL-500 that I've been looking to use.

 

[IslandLizard]

Grain and hops look good to me.

I do think the subtlety of the Triticale will get lost in the mix. But if you need to use it up, it won't harm anything. Since Triticale kernels are very narrow, needle-like, you need to mill it on a very, very tight gap, knurls almost touching each other, or it won't get crushed. Or break them up with a pestle & mortar. Or save for a different beer, like a Saison, Pale Ale, IPA, etc.

Are you really going to use a Saison yeast? I'd use something more neutral, or accentuating the dark malts.

 

[Maverick986]

The yeast was a mistake, I confused it with Omega Gulo OYL-501, which is what I was actually thinking of using. It sounded interesting to try in this, and I already have some, however I was also considering buying an English ale yeast to play up the malts.

The triticale I had previously gotten for an IPA, but forgot it when I made the beer. I had read about adding rye to a Stout to add some spice notes, and thought this would work well for that, and to give some mouthfeel. If I wanted to play off that, should I increase its percentage, to say 10%, or would it be recommended to just leave it out of this beer, and just remember to use it next time I make an IPA?

 

[IslandLizard]

Use the Triticale in an IPA, 15-20% (or more) is good. It's quite subtle in the rye department, having perhaps 30% rye / 70% wheat character.

 

[Pappers_]

In addition to the Midnight Wheat (or whatever dark roasted grains/malt I am using) I like to add some chocolate malt (250 - 300L) to stouts.

Maris Otter Caramel malt? As in a crystal/caramel malt made with Maris Otter? This would be new to me - what lovibond level is it?

 

[Maverick986]

Use the Triticale in an IPA, 15-20% (or more) is good. It's quite subtle in the rye department, having perhaps 30% rye / 70% wheat character.

Thank you for the input. I will omit the triticale for this recipe, and try it in another.

 

[Maverick986]

In addition to the Midnight Wheat (or whatever dark roasted grains/malt I am using) I like to add some chocolate malt (250 - 300L) to stouts.

Maris Otter Caramel malt? As in a crystal/caramel malt made with Maris Otter? This would be new to me - what lovibond level is it?

Thanks for the input, I was looking at picking some chacolate malt up next time I stopped at my LHBS, but was not sure if I would be there before giving the recipe a shot.

I found the Caramel malt at Atlantic Brew Supply when I visited them. They list it as 70-80L, and when I tasted it, I thought it was great!

https://www.atlanticbrewsupply.com/...0-80L-Bairds-1823-Heritage-Series_p_2578.html

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the input, I was looking at picking some chacolate malt up next time I stopped at my LHBS, but was not sure if I would be there before giving the recipe a shot.

I found the Caramel malt at Atlantic Brew Supply when I visited them. They list it as 70-80L, and when I tasted it, I thought it was great!

https://www.atlanticbrewsupply.com/...0-80L-Bairds-1823-Heritage-Series_p_2578.html

It simply is a great crystal malt. I also brewed some beers with it, I really like it.

I personally wouldn't add barley chocolate malt to a stout, but that is my personal taste, I just don't like it. What our spelt chocolate can be nice on the other hand.

Otherwise, I think your recipe looks fine, but I don't know the yeast and the Titisomething grain.

My best stouts were all brewed with s04, that's why I tend to stick to this yeast for stouts.

 

[Beer666]

I have been using wyeast 1335 British ale 2 recently for my stouts and it clears after 2 weeks with no cold crashing.

 

[Miraculix]

I overlooked the hops.

Wouldn't use cluster and only would use a 60 minute addition. I would use English or European noble hops for this.

Although cluster @60min only might also work. I think American hops flavour does not work well in a stout (but again, could be just my personal taste).

 

[Dgallo]

Everyone has their own preferences, but when I make a stout I aim for 10-13% of roasted grains. I used split this up with carafa 2 or 3, chocolate, and roasted barley. At under 10% I feel stouts are underwhelming and have more porter-like profiles.

Also, you may already know this but I thought I’d mention it, aim for a 5.4 mash ph, that will give you wiggle room on either end. The wrong ph will cause a stout to be very astringent

 

[Pappers_]

. . . I found the Caramel malt at Atlantic Brew Supply when I visited them. They list it as 70-80L, and when I tasted it, I thought it was great!

https://www.atlanticbrewsupply.com/...0-80L-Bairds-1823-Heritage-Series_p_2578.html

Very interesting.

That brings your total caramel/crystal malt up to 14% of your grain bill, which may be a little higher than you'd want - it would probably make your stout pretty sweet, but that may be what you like. For many brewers, 10% is the upper limit for caramel/crystal malts.

 

[Pappers_]

Although cluster @60min only might also work. I think American hops flavour does not work well in a stout (but again, could be just my personal taste).

Definitely your personal taste - which is fine, of course - but American Stout's typically have American hop character, either citrus or resin.

 

[Miraculix]

Definitely your personal taste - which is fine, of course - but American Stout's typically have American hop character, either citrus or resin.

Well, the AMERICAN in American stout actually implies it hahaha, that's for sure.

I'm living in the UK and here in my little world, American stout does not exist.

Where is the difference between black IPA and American stout? Had some good black ipas that I enjoyed.

 

[Dgallo]

Well, the AMERICAN in American stout actually implies it hahaha, that's for sure.

I'm living in the UK and here in my little world, American stout does not exist.

Where is the difference between black IPA and American stout? Had some good black ipas that I enjoyed.

Black ipa :
emphasis on hops with a slight roast aroma and flavor, usually uses carafa for the color verses any use of roasted barley or chocolate malts(not saying it cant use these grains though)

American Stout:
Full emphasis on the malts and roast, with using the hops only to balance sweetness and provide a rounded hop character.

 

[Pappers_]

. . . . What is the difference between black IPA and American stout? Had some good black ipas that I enjoyed.

There can be a similarity between the two. But generally, a Black IPA (going by the BJCP style guidelines) is a beer with the dryness, hop-forward balance, and flavor characteristics of an American IPA, only darker in color – but without strongly roasted or burnt flavors. The flavor of darker malts is gentle and supportive, not a major flavor component.

 

[Maverick986]

Thank you everyone for the input. My original intention was to work on using up grains and hops I have already, although that it semi-tabled at this point. I was looking to make something on the sweeter side, and to try the triticale, but have abandoned the triticale, and now looking at upping the roasted malts to balance out some of the sweetness. I'll likely be going to my LHBS tomorrow, or late in the week, so I'm now looking at ingredients I don't have on hand, mainly chocolate malt. Hops are also open for debate, since I went with cluster initially, however do like East Kent Goldings, and looking to use that.

So my current recipe I have is:

Pale 2-Row - 36%
Maris Otter - 12%
Maris Otter Caramel Malt - 11%
Flaked Oats - 10%
Flaked Barley - 8%
Chocolate Malt 350L - 6%
Carafa II - 5%
Roasted Barley - 5%
Crystal 15 - 2%

Hops - goal of 36-37 estimated IBU
East Kent Golding - 60min
East Kent Golding - 20min

I plan on water adjustments as well, but not worrying about that at the moment. Crystal 15 may be omitted, and I'm not sure if I may be going overboard with the grain bill?

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you everyone for the input. My original intention was to work on using up grains and hops I have already, although that it semi-tabled at this point. I was looking to make something on the sweeter side, and to try the triticale, but have abandoned the triticale, and now looking at upping the roasted malts to balance out some of the sweetness. I'll likely be going to my LHBS tomorrow, or late in the week, so I'm now looking at ingredients I don't have on hand, mainly chocolate malt. Hops are also open for debate, since I went with cluster initially, however do like East Kent Goldings, and looking to use that.

So my current recipe I have is:

Pale 2-Row - 36%
Maris Otter - 12%
Maris Otter Caramel Malt - 11%
Flaked Oats - 10%
Flaked Barley - 8%
Chocolate Malt 350L - 6%
Carafa II - 5%
Roasted Barley - 5%
Crystal 15 - 2%

Hops - goal of 36-37 estimated IBU
East Kent Golding - 60min
East Kent Golding - 20min

I plan on water adjustments as well, but not worrying about that at the moment. Crystal 15 may be omitted, and I'm not sure if I may be going overboard with the grain bill?

Don't know mate, but this looks awfully busy to me. I think for a really good stout it takes two, at max three malts and hops

Go with 10% roast, this includes everything dark, like carafa, chocolate and midnight wheat. 10% crystal and the rest pale, doesn't matter much if mo or other pale, mixing both is fine to get rid of little amounts.

Don't exceed the ten percent roast it you are not 100% sure why. Had quite a few stouts myself that came out astringent and were only drinkable after a few months aging. That's not nice for a first stout.... You balance the sweetness with hop bitterness, not with roast astringency.

You can include ten percent oats, but this won't give you anything except for yeast health and a potential bump regarding long-term storage ability. Google "Scott janish case brewing with oats" to find out more about it.

 

[Big Monk]

I’m against “kitchen sink” or “leftover” beers as well as busy stouts. Brewing happens so infrequently for me now and takes such a chunk out of my weekend that I wouldn’t want to do it just to do it.

My house Imperial Stout is simple:

Weyermann Pale Pilsner (68%)
Weyermann Munich I (20%)
Dingemans Special B (5%)
Weyermann Carafa I (4%)
Weyermann Carafa II (3%)

German Magnum (pellets - 80% of BU) @ 60 min
Cascade (whole - 20% of BU) @ 10 min

BRY-97

9% ABV max

 

[Miraculix]

I’m against “kitchen sink” or “leftover” beers as well as busy stouts. Brewing happens so infrequently for me now and takes such a chunk out of my weekend that I wouldn’t want to do it just to do it.

My house Imperial Stout is simple:

Weyermann Pale Pilsner (68%)
Weyermann Munich I (20%)
Dingemans Special B (5%)
Weyermann Carafa I (4%)
Weyermann Carafa II (3%)

German Magnum (pellets - 80% of BU) @ 60 min
Cascade (whole - 20% of BU) @ 10 min

BRY-97

9% ABV max

That looks like something I would like!



.... Ok would need to fight a bit with the cascade maybe.

 

[Big Monk]

That looks like something I would like!



.... Ok would need to fight a bit with the cascade maybe.

You don’t like cascade?! What a heathen...

 

[Miraculix]

You don’t like cascade?! What a heathen...

I love it, but not I a stout... Or maybe I just haven't had an American one which was good.

 

[Big Monk]

I love it, but not I a stout... Or maybe I just haven't had an American one which was good.

Are there other kinds?!

 

[Dgallo]

My house Imperial Stout is simple:

Weyermann Pale Pilsner (68%)
Weyermann Munich I (20%)
Dingemans Special B (5%)
Weyermann Carafa I (4%)
Weyermann Carafa II (3%)

This is why I love homebrewing so much. Just so many difference preferences and desire for each person. You love it and from the grain bill I know if I tried it I would tell you I would like a little bolder roast presense. This is the exact reason I get so annoyed when people say they do not like beer. There is def a beeer out there for everyone

 

[Big Monk]

This is why I love homebrewing so much. Just so many difference preferences and desire for each person. You love it and from the grain bill I know if I tried it I would tell you I would like a little bolder roast presense. This is the exact reason I get so annoyed when people say they do not like beer. There is def a beeer out there for everyone

How do you know how "bold" the roast presence is without tasting it?

 

[Dgallo]

How do you know how "bold" the roast presence is without tasting it?

The use of carafa and the percentages. Obviously bold is a relative term to the individual. I’m not knocking your recipe in anyway shape or form. I’m betting you’re getting a really nice chocolate notes with a great caramel notes and a tad raisin from from the special b(one of my favor crystal/caramel grains for a stout). I just prefer some roasted barley or chocolate malt for a stronger roast character.

 

[Big Monk]

The use of carafa and the percentages. Obviously bold is a relative term to the individual. I’m not knocking your recipe in anyway shape or form. I’m betting you’re getting a really nice chocolate notes with a great caramel notes and a tad raisin from from the special b(one of my favor crystal/caramel grains for a stout). I just prefer some roasted barley or chocolate malt for a stronger roast character.

Carafa I and II ARE chocolate malts.

I get what you mean though.

 

[Miraculix]

Carafa I and II ARE chocolate malts.

I get what you mean though.

No, they are both dehusked roast barley and NOT chocolate malts.

Edit: seems like it's not!

 

[Big Monk]

No, they are both dehusked roast barley and NOT chocolate malts.

Queue the useless argument.

Carafa I, II, and III are not dehusked.

Carafa I, II, and III SPECIAL are dehusked.

I disagree with you and it may be down to semantics. As far as I know Carafa, in any form, is NOT roasted barley as we know it, i.e. unmalted and roasted. I think this is just an error in Weyermann's info (lost in translation, etc.)

With that in mind, there is no functional difference between the lower lovibond Carafa malts and chocolate malt. Weyermann does offer a roasted barley though.

Maybe you can elaborate on what the difference between a 350L Chocolate malt and 350L Carafa I would be?

 

[brewbama]

My stout grain bill:

73% Base malt
4.5% Med Crystal
4.5% Dark Crystal
4.5% Chocolate malt
4.5% Roasted Barley

For a milk stout add 9% Lactose otherwise make the bill 80/5/5/5/5 respectively.

 

[Miraculix]

Queue the useless argument.

Carafa I, II, and III are not dehusked.

Carafa I, II, and III SPECIAL are dehusked.

I disagree with you and it may be down to semantics. As far as I know Carafa, in any form, is NOT roasted barley as we know it, i.e. unmalted and roasted. I think this is just an error in Weyermann's info (lost in translation, etc.)

With that in mind, there is no functional difference between the lower lovibond Carafa malts and chocolate malt. Weyermann does offer a roasted barley though.

Maybe you can elaborate on what the difference between a 350L Chocolate malt and 350L Carafa I would be?

Read my post again please. I edited it ten seconds after posting.

 

[brewbama]

I use this as a translation:

Pale Chocolate — Carafa (Special) I
Chocolate — Carafa (Special) II
Black Malt (Black Patent) — Carafa (Special) III

 

[Maverick986]

A lot of great info here, causing me to reevaluate my ingredients, mainly the grains. I've been looking at the amount of flaked oats and barley. I know the oats can add smoothness, and the barley creaminess, my question is, with the below grain bill, is if the amounts are excessive? I'm looking for my stout to be creamy smooth, but not sure how much the other malts may be helping or hindering, where I should keep the current amounts, or adjust them any.

Pale 2-Row - 57%
Maris Otter Caramel Malt - 10%
Flaked Oats - 10%
Flaked Barley - 8%
Carafa II Special - 5%
Midnight Wheat - 5%
Munich Dark 20L - 5%

 

[Miraculix]

Oats don't add creaminess.

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Oats add mainly nothing, they are good for the yeast and long term storage, that's it.

They can also kill your head retention, but shouldn't happen at ten percent.

What is the Munich for in your recipe? You can certainly brew as it is and it will be good but personally, I like to know exactly why I add an ingredient and dark munich at five percent won't be detectable. I would skip the Munich altogether and replace it with pale.

 

[Dgallo]

Oats don't add creaminess.

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Oats add mainly nothing, they are good for the yeast and long term storage, that's it.

They can also kill your head retention, but shouldn't happen at ten percent.

What is the Munich for in your recipe? You can certainly brew as it is and it will be good but personally, I like to know exactly why I add an ingredient and dark munich at five percent won't be detectable. I would skip the Munich altogether and replace it with pale.

Did you actually read that article? The Whole beginning is how using oat greatly increases the mouthfeel by adding proportional large amounts of proteins.

I’ve used oats in all different beer styles and I can tell you Oats 100% adds creaminess/chewyness. You’re correct though, it has a huge negativity impact on head retention. Step mashing helps but it does certainly need to be paired with malted or flaked wheat/barley to improve the head.

 

[Miraculix]

Did you actually read that article? The Whole beginning is how using oat greatly increases the mouthfeel by adding proportional large amounts of proteins.

I’ve used oats in all different beer styles and I can tell you Oats 100% adds creaminess/chewyness. You’re correct though, it has a huge negativity impact on head retention. Step mashing helps but it does certainly need to be paired with malted or flaked wheat/barley to improve the head.

Mate, read the whole thing, not just the intro.

And on another note, I made blind tests with a smash, same beer but with 30% oats and another one with 30% flaked barley instead of the oats. Zero difference in perception, mouthfeel, whatsoever, except for cloudiness.

Your perceived creaminess is your confirmation bias playing games with your mouth, think porridge, expect creaminess, percieve it. Psychology can be interesting! I am falling for it all the time, latest one was carafa malt for me. I was 100% it is unmalted.... So it tasted like less bitter roast barley to me.

 

[Dgallo]

Mate, read the whole thing, not just the intro.

And on another note, I made blind tests with a smash, same beer but with 30% oats and another one with 30% flaked barley instead of the oats. Zero difference in perception, mouthfeel, whatsoever, except for cloudiness.

Your perceived creaminess is your confirmation bias playing games with your mouth, think porridge, expect creaminess, percieve it. Psychology can be interesting! I am falling for it all the time, latest one was carafa malt for me.

Process and mashing has a huge impact on using oats. So does if you choose to use kettle finings. There are more proteins in flaked oats than flaked barley(I like this grain too) so if you aren’t mashing high enough to extract the excess or you’re fining the excess protein out, then yes your probably arent able to detect the differences

 

[Miraculix]

Process and mashing has a huge impact on using oats. So does if you choose to use kettle finings. There are more proteins in flaked oats than flaked barley(I like this grain too) so if you aren’t mashing high enough to extract the excess or you’re fining the excess protein out, then yes your probably arent able to detect the differences

I never fine my wort but cannot tell for sure that the mash wasn't on the low temperature side. Although I don't think that protein extraction is that dependent on temperature as you say.

Have you now read the whole article?

 

[Dgallo]

I never fine my wort but cannot tell for sure that the mash wasn't on the low temperature side.

Have you now read the whole article?

I’ve read it multiple times, including the updated info on oats in his new book. I’m a NEIPA guy so I’ve been following janish’s stuff for a few years now. He suggest 18-20% to increase the silkyness. Mashing 154-156 to increase extraction of unfermentable sugars. All increase mouthfeel

 

[Miraculix]

I’ve read it multiple times, including the updated info on oats in his new book. I’m a NEIPA guy so I’ve been following janish’s stuff for a few years now. He suggest 18-20% to increase the silkyness. Mashing 154-156 to increase extraction of unfermentable sugars. All increase mouthfeel

Yes exactly and below that percentage, no effect.