Spunding question

[h22lude]

Huh. I have never noticed the ears on any dip tube and I have a motley crue of used kegs purchased over the years. Interesting.

I didn't either until I tried to put one of my beer dip tubes into the new post. Then I realized why the dip tube has to be perfectly in the center to drop into place. It made complete sense once I figured it out.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Need some de-bugging help. I have a spunding valve but unclear how much to loosen the pressure relief. Is it just trial and error since it's a budget one without gradations?

It's been up in the 50-60 range, so I used the pressure relief value to let out pressure. At the same time have been loosening the end piece. If I loosen too much, beer starts coming out.

Any guesstimates how much the pressure should drop if it is 45 psi at ambient 70F, and then put into a fridge at 50F?

 

[NateBrew]

You can very slowly walk it down in pressure until you get to what you need. One problem that you might have is that the stuff that sprayed out of the valve (yes?) will cause the seat of the thing to stick and you won't get a smooth start to the gas release. I would suggest just using the PRV to get it down to where you want based on what the gauge says and then start loosening up the valve until you get a little hiss. Flick it with your finger as you go so you break the seat free if it has some beer "glueing" it together.

You could yank the spunding valve off and take it apart to clean it. Once it is all clear, I lubricate the mechanism with something (keg lube, food grade mineral oil, etc) so that it works smoothly. Pop it back on and then start walking down with the PRV.

 

[Dland]

Agree it could get clogged, especially if not much head space.

You could replace that valve with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Control-Devi...ords=spunding&qid=1568556502&s=gateway&sr=8-1

That's what I use and they look like they are easier to use than the one you have.

 

[whovous]

It's sad. I've been trying to figure out spunding for over a year, but my limited brew schedule combined with a weird travel schedule means that the spund valve I bought from Bobby a year ago did not come out of the box until tonight.

My current brew attenuated from 1.052 to 1.022 and I transferred from fermenter to keg tonight. It was not a closed transfer. I added some dry hops as well since I have a Top Draw/ Clear Beer type of device in the keg. Bobby's instructions said to use CO2 to pressurize the keg a bit beyond the desired level, and then to use the spunding toy to slowly dial it back. I wound up with beer squirting out of the device.

Anyway, I think I set the device to about 26psi at 67F. However, every time I look at the gauge, it seems to be a bit lower. It was a bit over 15psi the last time I looked. I am probably done looking for the night.

Does this mean the gas is settling into the wort? Or that I need to give the beer time to build up some pressure because I did not do a closed transfer? I am moderately confident that I have not done lasting damage to this brew, but I am less confident that I will wind up naturally carbonated somewhere near where I want to be.

Advice?

 

[NateBrew]

It's pretty common to have the pressure drop as the head space pressure diffuses into the beer a bit, but as the yeast produce CO2 you will get pressure building. The initial pressure is important to seal the lid. When you transferred, you knocked a bunch of CO2 out of solution. Due to this, the yeast need to bring the liquid back up to a super saturated state before it will start to build pressure from that. This can take many hours depending on how much CO2 was knocked out of solution.

 

[whovous]

It's pretty common to have the pressure drop as the head space pressure diffuses into the beer a bit, but as the yeast produce CO2 you will get pressure building. The initial pressure is important to seal the lid. When you transferred, you knocked a bunch of CO2 out of solution. Due to this, the yeast need to bring the liquid back up to a super saturated state before it will start to build pressure from that. This can take many hours depending on how much CO2 was knocked out of solution.

That is reassuring. I probably won't check again until morning. Do you predict the pressure will be higher or lower? The blow-off tube was still very musical at the time of transfer.

 

[NateBrew]

I would guess that it will be higher. Did you do a fast ferment test to see what the expected FG was going to be? You only need 3 or 4 points of gravity to fully carbonate, so if you still had 8 or 10 to go you will have a lot of extra CO2 to blow off.

Did you clean the spunding valve after it had beer coming out of it? If not, it can get kind of stuck and allow the pressure to build up higher before it starts to bleed off. It may be fine, but if it gets too gunked up it will stick.

 

[whovous]

I did not do an FF test, but the last time I made this beer with this yeast it was 1.006. But that was with fresh yeast while this time the yeast was third or fourth generation and not in the best of health. It took several hours longer to get started.

The gauge was just over 30psi this AM, so it may be either that the valve is sticking or I did not set it last night after all. I slowly turned the dial a bit farther and let the beer leak when it started leaking again. The leak stopped after about an ounce. I again think I have it set at 26, but who knows? I will try to keep an eye on it.

What is involved in cleaning the valve? Do I take the whole thing apart, or what? And will I have to go through the whole setting process again?

I think I may also have a Blow Tie valve hidden somewhere. If I can find it I may use it for my next adventure in spunding.

 

[balrog]

How do you have beer leaking from the spunding valve? You have it on the air intake side right? Is the keg so full that you have essentially no headspace and any foaming from CO2 release immediately comes out the keg input tube?

 

[whovous]

How do you have beer leaking from the spunding valve?

Just lucky I guess.

Bit serially, I filled it just as full as I could. How full should it be? I confess I never thought about when I set it up.

When I returned to the keg after a few hours the gauge was back to the 30psi max and I had a few more ounces of beer in the bottom of my FC. I released the pressure and then removed the valve. I rinsed the valve with tap water, turned the dial a bit lower, and put it back on. It was already back above 20psi. It looks like I may wind up babysitting this thing today.

 

[Dland]

Next time wait until gravity is more like 1.016-8. Regular C keg should have about 5 gallons, that leaves you with enough head space.

5 gallons works out to about 40 pounds. If you do closed transfers and use a scale, fill to 40#s, all should work out in future.

I'd take apart that spunding valve and clean it, sterilize with rubbing alcohol or something.

 

[balrog]

Only time I ever used keg for ferm vessel, I only put 4.5gal in to acct for krausen. It still clearly went to the top but I didn't get krausen in the gas-in-qd poppet luckily.

Re @Dland comment, I have *GOT* to get a different scale because while I can use the one I've got when spot checking beer remaining, the darn electronic bath scale shuts off when doing creeping measurement like slowly transferring one keg to another. Hella annoying.

 

[whovous]

Mine is a three gallon keg and I did not do a closed transfer; I simply filled it as far as I could and still put the lid on. With the benefit of hindsight, that was pretty clearly a mistake.

My first thought was to remove the lid and to pour some of the beer down the drain. The lid won't come off! When I pull the poppet it hisses continuously, some wort and hops come out, and the gauge never gets below about 2psi, often higher. When I release the poppet it returns to about 10psi very quickly. I even tried using a hammer on the lid, but it would not come off. Given the amount of pressure, I suspect that may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

I attached a picnic tap and poured some beer down the drain. I did not measure, but I would guess it was at least a quart. I am waiting to see what happens next and or what advice I receive here.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Mine is a three gallon keg and I did not do a closed transfer; I simply filled it as far as I could and still put the lid on. With the benefit of hindsight, that was pretty clearly a mistake.

My first thought was to remove the lid and to pour some of the beer down the drain. The lid won't come off! When I pull the poppet it hisses continuously, some wort and hops come out, and the gauge never gets below about 2psi, often higher. When I release the poppet it returns to about 10psi very quickly. I even tried using a hammer on the lid, but it would not come off. Given the amount of pressure, I suspect that may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

I attached a picnic tap and poured some beer down the drain. I did not measure, but I would guess it was at least a quart. I am waiting to see what happens next and or what advice I receive here.

Why did you pour it down the drain?

I would have drank and not told anybody. LoL

 

[whovous]

There was a lot of floating hop matter in that pour. I pitched the dryhops at the same time I transferred from fermenter to keg. I think of it as biotransformational spunding.

 

[Vale71]

I even tried using a hammer on the lid, but it would not come off. Given the amount of pressure, I suspect that may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

Yes it was. Unless you were going to have the room repainted anyway...

 

[Dland]

Re @Dland comment, I have *GOT* to get a different scale because while I can use the one I've got when spot checking beer remaining, the darn electronic bath scale shuts off when doing creeping measurement like slowly transferring one keg to another. Hella annoying.

This is the one I use. Easy to set tare, accurate measurements from under 1 Oz to 110#, long battery life & very durable.

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai...ahUKEwiM56bSrd3kAhUEd98KHXfHCBQQvhcIaA&adurl=

 

[Schlenkerla]

Only time I ever used keg for ferm vessel, I only put 4.5gal in to acct for krausen. It still clearly went to the top but I didn't get krausen in the gas-in-qd poppet luckily.

Re @Dland comment, I have *GOT* to get a different scale because while I can use the one I've got when spot checking beer remaining, the darn electronic bath scale shuts off when doing creeping measurement like slowly transferring one keg to another. Hella annoying.

Left the keg off for 3 seconds.

 

[whovous]

Yes it was. Unless you were going to have the room repainted anyway...

Someday, when all of these problems have solved themselves and the keg has died a natural death, is this lid going to come off the old fashioned way, or is it effectively glued on with hop gunk?

I had maybe two ounces of headspace originally and I am guessing I have at least 16 times that much space now. The gauge is now taking its own sweet time climbing back to higher levels. I wonder if I should reattach the gas and go through the setting process all over again. I confess the whole thing has me a bit spooked.

 

[doug293cz]

Next time wait until gravity is more like 1.016-8. Regular C keg should have about 5 gallons, that leaves you with enough head space.

5 gallons works out to about 40 pounds. If you do closed transfers and use a scale, fill to 40#s, all should work out in future.

I'd take apart that spunding valve and clean it, sterilize with rubbing alcohol or something.

If you want to be a little more accurate than "about 40 pounds": Water at 68°F (20°C) has a density of 8.3304 lb/gal, and at 39°F (4°C) 8.3454 lb/gal. The formula to calculate the weight of a specific volume of beer is:

Weight = Volume * SG * Density of Water
​

So 5 gal of 1.010 beer at 68°F would have a weight of: 5 gal * 1.010 * 8.3304 lb/gal = 42.07 lb. If you do just go with 40 lb, you never have to worry about overfilling, but you may lose a couple of pints that you could have kegged.

Brew on

 

[Dland]

If you want to be a little more accurate than "about 40 pounds": Water at 68°F (20°C) has a density of 8.3304 lb/gal, and at 39°F (4°C) 8.3454 lb/gal. The formula to calculate the weight of a specific volume of beer is:

Weight = Volume * SG * Density of Water
​

So 5 gal of 1.010 beer at 68°F would have a weight of: 5 gal * 1.010 * 8.3304 lb/gal = 42.07 lb. If you do just go with 40 lb, you never have to worry about overfilling, but you may lose a couple of pints that you could have kegged.

Brew on

Impressive math, but when I go over aprox 41.5#(net wight) I often start getting beer/foam out of gas out tube, even during very slow closed transfer, except in a few kegs of a different make that go over 42.5#. So I thought 40# might be good advice for our friend with too little headspace. {; brew on.

 

[whovous]

Impressive math, but when I go over aprox 41.5#(net wight) I often start getting beer/foam out of gas out tube, even during very slow closed transfer, except in a few kegs of a different make that go over 42.5#. So I thought 40# might be good advice for our friend with too little headspace. {; brew on.

Now I know you meant too little space in my keg and not my noggin, but I gotta confess to feeling headspace impaired in more ways than one.

 

[Bassman2003]

Another thought, have your trimmed the gas tubing inside the keg? Spunding folks often cut it back so it is even with the top of the keg instead of sticking down into the liquid. It will give some extra room to play with.

Spunding is simple yet tricky. Closed transfers are important as the whole point of spunding is to keep O2 out of your beer. I picked up a Tilt wireless hydrometer which has really helped me keep track of when to transfer.

 

[NateBrew]

I do all closed transfers and I don't weigh anything. I just fill the keg into the OUT post with a tube on the gas post (on the QD) into a mason jar until beer comes out of the gas post. Then I disconnect everything and wait for a couple hours. Then I put a picnic tap on and drain off a pint or two of beer (and drink it) so that there is some space between the surface of the beer and the gas tube.

After that, I put the spunding valve on and wait.

If the valve needs to get cleaned, I just take apart the actual PRV element (it just screws in) and then run a brush through the thing to clean any gunk out. Rinse and reassemble. You'll have to recalibrate too.

 

[whovous]

I think I am going to clean mine again and take the spring out this time. Pressure seems to be dropping instead of climbing and the spund is the only explanation I can come up with.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Agree it could get clogged, especially if not much head space.

You could replace that valve with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Control-Devi...ords=spunding&qid=1568556502&s=gateway&sr=8-1

That's what I use and they look like they are easier to use than the one you have.

Iordered this one. Didn't come in before I left on Thursday night for a biz trip. So, I cleaned the spund I have and started a new keg. Already at FG, so I used 1/2 cup cane sugar for the keg ferment. Will check it out in about 2 weeks.

Appreciate all the trouble shooting replies. I bled off the extra pressure several times over several days, and that seemed to get me down to very foamy but drinkable.

 

[whovous]

What temp are you serving at? Does that explain the foam?

 

[Schlenkerla]

FWIW - I use the Android Brewzor Calculator. My spund valve is at 17-18psi and I'm good. I'll throw ~3 oz of sugar in the keg if I think I might miss the spund window.

There's times where I didn't miss the spund and I had sugar in the keg and it was no problem. (I rig the fermentor to purge the keg of air. So dry sugar goes into the keg prior to pitching the yeast.)

I think my spund valve vents well and rechecks. The pressure builds slowly and vents slowly. I also have a hose from the connector to spund valve. Beer foam would have to fight gravity to blow out of the valve. The spund valve will sit on a table above the keg. Limiting the beer so it doesn't get too the gas in post is probably much more important. Fill using a scale.

To test this you could fill it with water up to the tube height weigh it with the lid on. Then record/remember that figure. Its typically near 50lbs or slightly under 50lbs. Not every keg of mine has the same gas tube.

 

[whovous]

The hose from the connector is an interesting idea. I think I will try that next time.

But is 17psi correct? There was a table somewhere, maybe this string, that said room temp beer needs to be in the upper 20s to get 2.3 volumes at serving temps. I am set at 26 based on that. Do I need to dial back? It is pure foam when I take a hydrometer sample, but I've been assuming that will change when I chill.

 

[Schlenkerla]

The hose from the connector is an interesting idea. I think I will try that next time.

But is 17psi correct? There was a table somewhere, maybe this string, that said room temp beer needs to be in the upper 20s to get 2.3 volumes at serving temps. I am set at 26 based on that. Do I need to dial back? It is pure foam when I take a hydrometer sample, but I've been assuming that will change when I chill.

I've been using this Calculator for years. Just this year for spunding. When I carb to my set pressure the beer is good carb wise, not overly carbed, not is it under carbed either. To me it's very drinkable.

Note the volume, temp, and vol of CO2 is taken into account for the calculated pressure.

 

[Schlenkerla]

So 26psi at 2.3 is right.

At 2.3 vol of CO2 it would be mostly foam on my system. I might have shorter and larger lines than you.

My gauge of what works is my "normal" regulator pressure setting for forced carbonation and serving. I try to dial that in on the calculator and the convert that to my pressure to spund. I also want enough pressure to make the valve check good on closing.

 

[Schlenkerla]

The hose from the connector is an interesting idea. I think I will try that next time.

But is 17psi correct? There was a table somewhere, maybe this string, that said room temp beer needs to be in the upper 20s to get 2.3 volumes at serving temps. I am set at 26 based on that. Do I need to dial back? It is pure foam when I take a hydrometer sample, but I've been assuming that will change when I chill.

Try to pull a sample before kegging and save that for repeated gravity checks. I typically will use a refractometer or my hydrometer. If I remember to do so it helps to calibrate my refractometer with the hydrometer at the OG check.

 

[whovous]

Can I just leave the sample in the hydrometer tube? If yes, then it looks like I might be done at 1.012 as it has been there since last night. I got to 1.006 the last time I made a similar beer with this yeast, but I started five points higher and my yeast was not in the best of shape and I did not make a starter.

I think I am going to target something like 2.1 volumes. At 67F a picnic tap belches pure foam, though that likely does not mean much.

 

[Dland]

Can I just leave the sample in the hydrometer tube? If yes, then it looks like I might be done at 1.012 as it has been there since last night. I got to 1.006 the last time I made a similar beer with this yeast, but I started five points higher and my yeast was not in the best of shape and I did not make a starter.

I think I am going to target something like 2.1 volumes. At 67F a picnic tap belches pure foam, though that likely does not mean much.

In theory, one can go by the sample left in hydrometer tube. In practice, it seems to me that fermentation in fermentor can take place at different rate.

You can cellar condition for a while after spunding before you crash it if you think it may work out more and you want a dry beer.

I usually target for around 2.5 vols. That pours fine at my serving temp, around 32F, at 65, it will be foamy.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Can I just leave the sample in the hydrometer tube? If yes, then it looks like I might be done at 1.012 as it has been there since last night. I got to 1.006 the last time I made a similar beer with this yeast, but I started five points higher and my yeast was not in the best of shape and I did not make a starter.

I think I am going to target something like 2.1 volumes. At 67F a picnic tap belches pure foam, though that likely does not mean much.

I think so.... I have a pint bottle that I use that's just like an Erlenmyer flask. I pour it into the vile or pull eyedropper. If I use the vile, I throw back into the bottle after the hydrometer test.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

Ok, I got my spunding set up from Atlantic Brewing. Only issue is the gauge just goes to 15 psi (photo when I bought it showed 60psi). Anyhoo, I kegged a 1933 Kidd AK about 24 hours ago. The gauge barely moved in 24 hours, but I pulled the relief value just to double check and it's definitely carbonating. Also, when I shook the keg, the gauge went from 12 to 14. I'll slap it in the fridge in a day or two and then test it out.

Have you spunded again? If so, was there a delay again? I just tried spunding for the first time, with a batch that was fermented in the serving keg. The blowoff tube was bubbling well for a few days. I switched to the spunding valve and it's been reading 0 for a few hours. I really have no idea how long to wait until I see the gauge move.

 

[Bilsch]

Have you spunded again? If so, was there a delay again? I just tried spunding for the first time, with a batch that was fermented in the serving keg. The blowoff tube was bubbling well for a few days. I switched to the spunding valve and it's been reading 0 for a few hours. I really have no idea how long to wait until I see the gauge move.

It can take a day or so before the needle moves depending on the scale and of course there are a lot of crappy inaccurate gauges out there thanks to ebay and amazon.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

It can take a day or so before the needle moves depending on the scale and of course there are a lot of crappy inaccurate gauges out there thanks to ebay and amazon.

In my case, it turned out that the gauge wasn't tightened enough. I had two spunding valves with the Kegland Blowtie, but didn't use plumbers tape on either of the threads for the gauges. When I hooked it up to a keg in my kegerator, the gauge immediately showed the proper PSI but I heard hissing come out of it. Once I fixed that, it started working correctly.

It's still a learning process though. I have two kegs fermenting right now. For one of them, I seemed to have missed the boat since it took time to figure out the issue, then get the plumbers tape. It's only up to about 10 PSI right now, and it doesn't seem to be going up any more.

For my other keg, which started fermenting Sunday morning and started spunding Tuesday afternoon, I woke up this morning and it was over 50 PSI. I started turning the dial on the blowtie to release pressure and figure out where 25-30 PSI is, and after a minute I got some foam spitting out of it. Oops! I was on my way out the door and didn't have time to set up the blowoff tube again, so I'll see how it is when I get home later.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

In my case, it turned out that the gauge wasn't tightened enough. I had two spunding valves with the Kegland Blowtie, but didn't use plumbers tape on either of the threads for the gauges. When I hooked it up to a keg in my kegerator, the gauge immediately showed the proper PSI but I heard hissing come out of it. Once I fixed that, it started working correctly.

It's still a learning process though. I have two kegs fermenting right now. For one of them, I seemed to have missed the boat since it took time to figure out the issue, then get the plumbers tape. It's only up to about 10 PSI right now, and it doesn't seem to be going up any more.

For my other keg, which started fermenting Sunday morning and started spunding Tuesday afternoon, I woke up this morning and it was over 50 PSI. I started turning the dial on the blowtie to release pressure and figure out where 25-30 PSI is, and after a minute I got some foam spitting out of it. Oops! I was on my way out the door and didn't have time to set up the blowoff tube again, so I'll see how it is when I get home later.

Well, things got worse when I got home. I tried pulling the PRV to release pressure, but eventually I got foam out of it. I gave it a few minutes and pulled the PRV again, and the same thing happened. So I foolishly unscrewed the gas post a little at a time, letting out a little pressure with each turn, so that I could put the blowoff tube on.

Once the gas post was off of the last thread, beer started shooting at my chest and face at very high speeds. I quickly put the gas post back on and tightened it up, then spent a couple minutes cleaning up the mess. When I was on my way out of the garage, I saw the gas dip tube on the ground. Oops!

So I relieved pressure a little at a time until I was comfortable taking the post off again, to put the dip tube in. This time I had a few paper towels over the gas post to help with any flying beer. Well, the paper towels helped a little - but I still got sprayed. I got the gas dip tube in, but it wasn't pretty.