Sparge Question...

[dunnright00]

I've always read that sparge water should be 170 degrees and no higher.
Which I've always thought that means, heat up your water to 170 and then sparge.

Recently, trying to get some more clarification on my technique, I've seen it said to heat your water to 180-185, to bring temp in the mash tun up to 170.

Which is it?!? If it's the later, then that might explain why I've been having efficiency problems...

 

[feinbera]

Far as I understand it, 170° (or, sometimes, 168°) is the temperature above which you can start extracting tannins – so, especially if you don't "mash out" and bring the grain up to 170°ish before lautering your first runnings, you will want your first round of sparge water to be hotter if you're aiming for 170° in the tun – the Green Bay Rackers have a handy calculator for figuring out exactly how much hotter.

The sugars will flow more easily at warmer temperatures, but if your mash tun is holding temp well and you're already heating your sparge water to 170°, then you're probably already somewhere around 160°, 165°, and that extra 5-10 degrees of heat probably won't make a huge difference to efficiency.

 

[dunnright00]

Cool! Thanks for the reply, and the link.

Getting more info from http://www.dennybrew.com/ also is helping...

 

[wilserbrewer]

The goal is to keep the grain below 170 degrees, the sparge water can be any temperature. Not uncommon in batch sparging to infuse a small amount of boiling water to kick the mash up near 170.

Kai did an interesting study that even a cold water sparge is effective...lots of good reading linked below
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com

then that might explain why I've been having efficiency problems...

I doubt your sparge temps are impacting your efficiency much if any...

 

[acidrain]

You didn't say... batch or fly sparging?
Batch sparging does not need a mash-out, and hotter water dissolves sugars better is a myth. The sugar is already dissolved... you just need to rinse it out.
Fly sparging does use a mash-out. The reason is to stop the enzymes to preserve the mash profile.
Batch and fly sparge are apples and oranges.

 

[RM-MN]

The reason for keeping the grain temperature below 170 is to avoid tannin extraction but even that isn't going to happen until your pH goes above 6.0. Your wort should be in the 5.2 to 5.4 pH range and a single batch sparge isn't likely to drive that up over 6.0 unless your water is extremely alkaline in which case it probably won't make good beer anyway. In decoction brewing a portion of the mash that is thick with grains is brought to a boil and then added back to the mash to increase the temperature. If that doesn't extract tannins, why would a hot sparge?

If you are fly sparging, that's a different situation. As you fly sparge, you are continuously adding fresh water and draining the wort at about the same rate. As that fly sparge continues, the pH of the wort will rise. That's why it is suggested that you stop fly sparging when the gravity of the sample falls below 1.010 because that gravity is about the time when the pH will have risen above the 6,0 pH.

 

[dunnright00]

You didn't say... batch or fly sparging?

I've recently discovered that I didn't really understand the difference between the two. I was doing kind of a hybrid, leaning more toward fly sparging, but not really doing it correctly. I'm going to do a straight batch sparge next time, maybe a double.

The reason for keeping the grain temperature below 170 is to avoid tannin extraction but even that isn't going to happen until your pH goes above 6.0. Your wort should be in the 5.2 to 5.4 pH range and a single batch sparge isn't likely to drive that up over 6.0 unless your water is extremely alkaline in which case it probably won't make good beer anyway. In decoction brewing a portion of the mash that is thick with grains is brought to a boil and then added back to the mash to increase the temperature. If that doesn't extract tannins, why would a hot sparge?

If you are fly sparging, that's a different situation. As you fly sparge, you are continuously adding fresh water and draining the wort at about the same rate. As that fly sparge continues, the pH of the wort will rise. That's why it is suggested that you stop fly sparging when the gravity of the sample falls below 1.010 because that gravity is about the time when the pH will have risen above the 6,0 pH.

This actually answers quite a few questions for me.

My sparge water was 170, and if I was doing a true batch sparge, that wouldn't really matter...?

But since I was doing a continuous water addition, and didn't really check the gravity, the pH probably did rise towards the end. Especially the time I tried to do a partigyle.

 

[Jupapabear]

I heat my sparge water while draining my mash tun, and use it as soon the cooler is drained. I only make sure the water is below 170* to keep from extracting tannins. The only reason I heat my sparge water is to cut time bringing my wort to a boil. I am inconsistent with my sparge temperatures and have never noticed a difference in efficiencies. I batch sparge and mill my own grain, and get ~80% efficiencies on my batches.

 

[dunnright00]

I heat my sparge water while draining my mash tun, and use it as soon the cooler is drained. I only make sure the water is below 170* to keep from extracting tannins. The only reason I heat my sparge water is to cut time bringing my wort to a boil. I am inconsistent with my sparge temperatures and have never noticed a difference in efficiencies. I batch sparge and mill my own grain, and get ~80% efficiencies on my batches.

So, let me just clarify your process...

At the end of your mash, I assume you vorlauf, and then drain all of the contents of the mash tun.
Then you add all of your sparge water, heated up to whatever (as long as it's below 170*). Do you then mix? Rest for 15 minutes? Or just continue to drain?

 

[blizz81]

Then you add all of your sparge water, heated up to whatever (as long as it's below 170*). Do you then mix? Rest for 15 minutes? Or just continue to drain?

Here again, it's not so much the sparge water temp that you're targeting as the temp of the resulting batch sparge. You'll have some delta.


But in general I believe the theory on batch sparging is the only reason to get your batch sparge as close to 168* without going over is that it will run off easier (and I suppose put your resulting wort a little warmer / quicker to boil), no efficiency concerns.

 

[RM-MN]

So, let me just clarify your process...

At the end of your mash, I assume you vorlauf, and then drain all of the contents of the mash tun.
Then you add all of your sparge water, heated up to whatever (as long as it's below 170*). Do you then mix? Rest for 15 minutes? Or just continue to drain?

After you vorlauf and drain you add the sparge water and stir like you are making a cake, then immendiately vorlauf again and drain. The water temperature shouldn't matter, you will only add water once and unless your water is very alkaline (in which case it wouldn't make good brewing water to begin with) you won't raise the pH to the danger zone (over 6.0) so you won't be extracting tannins. You could use boiling water but then, what's the point? You are only dissolving the remaining sugars so cooler water will work just about as well.

 

[dunnright00]

After you vorlauf and drain you add the sparge water and stir like you are making a cake, then immendiately vorlauf again and drain. ....

Excellent, Thanks!

 

[Jupapabear]

So, let me just clarify your process...

At the end of your mash, I assume you vorlauf, and then drain all of the contents of the mash tun.
Then you add all of your sparge water, heated up to whatever (as long as it's below 170*). Do you then mix? Rest for 15 minutes? Or just continue to drain?

Mix like hell, then vorlauf like usual. I may let it sit for a few seconds, but I don't really put much mind to it. But you got the idea.

 

[dunnright00]

So, if I was to try to do a partigyle again, should I sparge with cold or room temp water for the 2nd runnings? If not, what else should I do to prevent extracting tannins?

 

[Jupapabear]

Well you want to avoid over sparging. As you sparge, there are changes in your ph that will have adverse effects. I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject to be honest, though a few searches here or Google could lead you on the right direction. There are so many ways to partigyle that I would suggest looking at other threads on the subject. I would still sparge with hot water over cold (while keeping your grain below 170°).