Should I believe the IBUs on Beersmith

[Gustatorian]

Although I'm sure it's a detail that will be worked out in the future, but as of now Beersmith does not allow you to change the temperature on your steep/whirlpool charges. Subsequently, I see my IBUs skyrocket into the 140-150s on the recipe. However, I whirlpool at 140ºF (temp drops to about 125ºF during 30 minute process). Am I right in thinking that I shouldn't be extracting any IBUs from this addition? IIRC, alpha-acid isomerization starts at around 170-175ºF.

 

[stpug]

In the settings you can change the steep/whirlpool temperature, which also affect the calculated IBUs from those additions. They are there - in the settings.

 

[Calichusetts]

I don't like BS whirlpool IBU system. I set all flameout/WP additions as a 1 minute addition.

 

[dmtaylor]

You will get IBUs if whirlpooled between 120-140 F. However they'll be a fraction of what the calculators give, maybe only 25% as much (that's a swag).

Also be aware that the most IBUs any beer can have is about 90 IBUs, so if making an IPA of some sort, don't worry if you go over that number, it won't taste any more bitter than that unless you add isomerized extract or something like that, which I think is available to commercial breweries but I don't know if it's available in homebrew shops, and you wouldn't get this effect from real hops at all.

 

[jmark]

Here's what I do... since you're not going to get many IBUs from hops steeped below isomerization temps, just set your 'Whirlpool' hops as 0 minute additions. BS will set the IBUs from those as 0. However, your flameout hops that you may add really should be set as Whirlpool hops steeping for the amount of time it usually takes you to get below the isomerization temp (~180F). Kind of backward, but at least you'll get a more reasonable idea of the IBUs.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Also be aware that the most IBUs any beer can have is about 90 IBUs, so if making an IPA of some sort, don't worry if you go over that number, it won't taste any more bitter than that...

People keep saying this. But I have yet to see anything substantiating this claim.

 

[NervousDad]

The problem with beer smith is if you whirlpool it doesn't increase the ibus of your other hop addition, which it should. I think they need to put a boil time and a whirlpool time.

 

[jmark]

That's what I think too, but the workaround I suggested does seem to work. Incidentally, I did get an email the other day from Brad Smith (like I'm sure every BS user got) asking for suggestions... I responded with some, but forgot this one. I'll drop him another note.

 

[55x11]

I don't get it. We are talking about super late additions - 0 min vs. whirlpool? How much of a difference does it make? Anyone has any examples? A few min of whirlpool is probably a few percent IBU extraction. I think non-linear IBU saturation and hop aging is a much bigger issue.

 

[dmtaylor]

People keep saying this. But I have yet to see anything substantiating this claim.

Real life laboratory data has confirmed this fact (i.e., "Also be aware that the most IBUs any beer can have is about 90 IBUs") repeatedly for ANY beer, except perhaps for those cheating by adding hop extracts and special engineered techniques to pump more IBUs in. But for anyone using regular hops in a conventional manner in the boil or the whirlpool or whatever, the maximum limit of solubility of the isomerized alpha acids in normal beer is about 90 IBUs. Following is a little bit of supporting data and discussions for you. I'll agree with you that the amount of data published on the web appears scarce; either that, or we just don't know all the right technical terms to search on. And yes, it's highly technical, so if you're not a hop scientist (I am not), then it's not easy to find real data. What we hear is substantiated by dozens of independent sources though, and from people who've been on the direct receiving end of scientific presentations, etc.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2011

http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/IBUBrewingExperiment.pdf

http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/IBUFollow-up082311.pdf

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=273482&page=2

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/43211-worlds-bitterest-beer/

The IBU ceiling thing is true. Believe it. Or don't. My toe hair will continue to exist either way.

 

[jmark]

I don't get it. We are talking about super late additions - 0 min vs. whirlpool? How much of a difference does it make? Anyone has any examples? A few min of whirlpool is probably a few percent IBU extraction. I think non-linear IBU saturation and hop aging is a much bigger issue.

Put it this way... you throw in hops at flameout... those will continue to isomerize until the temp drops below around 180. If that takes 30 mins then that could be a substantial IBU contribution that BS2 isn't calculating (it calculates flameout hops as 0 IBUs). Now you're below 180, you add your whirlpool hops... this isn't contributing many, if any, IBUs, yet BS2 treats whirlpool hops as if they're added at isomerization temps, so you end up getting a substantial IBU contribution calculated by BS2 when in reality, no IBUs are actually being provided by those hops.

So, to workaround that, you have to treat the additions backwards in BS2 to get the IBU calc to approximate reality (i.e. treat your actual whirlpool hops as a BS2 flameout addition and your actual flameout addition as a BS2 whirlpool addition with a steeping time equal to the time it usually takes to drop to around 180F).

Edit... just dropped a line to Brad Smith about this particular issue and he responded almost immediately!!!

Mark,
When I added this originally the data was not available for carrying the boil hop utilization over to the whirlpool.

I've added this as an option in the new version I'll be releasing in about two months.

Cheers!

Brad Smith
BeerSmith.com

 

[ong]

My general approach is to hit my desired IBUs with a 60 minute addition, and then whirlpool as much as I want for flavor. I sure can't detect much bittering from any amount of whirlpool hops at any temperature (and I've done a number of experiments with only whirlpool additions).

 

[PeteNMA]

Don't forget that all any brewing software is doing is throwing together a formula based on rate equations to spit out an IBU number. There are myriad factors not taken into account which will drive the actual IBU level of the finished beer.

See for example this experiment from Brulosophy:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/03/21/kettle-hops-loose-vs-bagged-exbeeriment-results/


Calculated IBU is 44, from whichever formula Marshall uses in Beersmith (I'm sure he tells you somewhere if you want to know). Measured IBU in the final beer is 25-27

The point of the IBU number is to give you a consistent measurement which you can use to maintain the consistency of your beer. If you brew a beer you like, you should be able to brew it again and use the formulas to correct for any variation in your hops.

 

[Vandulus]

Considering that it takes me 5-10 minutes to carry my wort downstairs and get it chilled to under 180 F, I add 3-5 IBU to the calculated IBUs that Beersmith says.

I'm beginning to believe that late hop additions also throw a curve ball into IBU calculations as a late boil, 10 minute addition was tested at 12% utilization versus 35% for a 60 minute boil. I wish I could remember the source, but that suggests that IBU utilization is not linear and I have no idea if Beersmith takes that into account.

To further complicate things, perceived IBUs as in the Brulosophy experiment mentioned can skew tastes even further. Late hop additions contribute more hoppiness without affecting the overall bitterness in the IPAs and plaes I've been making recently.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Real life laboratory data has confirmed this fact (i.e., "Also be aware that the most IBUs any beer can have is about 90 IBUs") repeatedly for ANY beer, except perhaps for those cheating by adding hop extracts and special engineered techniques to pump more IBUs in. But for anyone using regular hops in a conventional manner in the boil or the whirlpool or whatever, the maximum limit of solubility of the isomerized alpha acids in normal beer is about 90 IBUs. Following is a little bit of supporting data and discussions for you. I'll agree with you that the amount of data published on the web appears scarce; either that, or we just don't know all the right technical terms to search on. And yes, it's highly technical, so if you're not a hop scientist (I am not), then it's not easy to find real data. What we hear is substantiated by dozens of independent sources though, and from people who've been on the direct receiving end of scientific presentations, etc.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2011

http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/IBUBrewingExperiment.pdf

http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/IBUFollow-up082311.pdf

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=273482&page=2

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/43211-worlds-bitterest-beer/

The IBU ceiling thing is true. Believe it. Or don't. My toe hair will continue to exist either way.

I am still reading. But I am seeing a lot of contradiction both within your references and directly with your claims.

 

[dmtaylor]

Glad I could help, not a problem, don't mention it, you're welcome.