Scottish ale questions

[drat]

So, I'm still new to the all grain world and I went ahead and brewed a Scottish ale. I started fermentation on September 6 and came in with a specific gravity of 1.044 when I added the wlp028. The FG goal was about 1.012. After one week I was well on my way, hitting 1.020. Now, today, sept 29, I'm getting ready to bottle and I see we're still at 1.020. I fermented at 65-67 degrees (basement fluctuates just a little bit).

I realize that I need to wait this out, maybe a good bottle condition, but the sample out of the fermenter was very underwhelming. Any reason for concern here? Any recommendations/suggestions?

 

[webby45wr]

You could try rousing the yeast (rocking the bucket) and moving it to a warmer location (upstairs closet). That might help it get a few more points.

 

[frazier]

I've used WLP028 a lot, and found it to be a good performer.

In my experience - and this seems to go against conventional wisdom, so take it with a grain of salt - once the yeast is done, it's done. I've never had much success (or luck) by trying to re-start the fermentation. But you have nothing to lose by trying.

The most important factors for getting good attenuation: 1) A highly fermentable wort; 2) Good aeration of the wort prior to pitching yeast; 3) Pitch a big healthy starter. FWIW, I've fermented with 028 in the high 50's, and while it took some time to finish, it still attenuated well.

So with all that in mind - was this an extract kit, or all grain? Did you make a staarter? How did you oxygenate?

As for the underwhelming taste at bottling, don't worry about that. In 3 or 4 weeks it will be much better.

Cheers,

 

[Moose1231]

With an og of 1.044, even without a starter, you should be able to reach your fg. It is more likely that you didn't aerate your wort enough or that you mashed too high. What was your mashing temperature? The one you measured, not the one you tried to reach

 

[frazier]

I should also add that with a Scottish Ale, a high finish is not necessarily undesirable. For me, at least.

OK, so re-reading your post I see that you are "new to the all-grain world". So I would echo the above comments that mash temp is important, and can be hard to "dial in". One of my early attempts finished at 1.034! But it was still drinkable, and was a good learning experience.

Calibrate your thermometer, use a good mash-infusion calculator, test for conversion, take notes, and practice practice practice.


Cheers,

 

[drat]

I mashed at 158. A one point it dropped to 150, so I brought it back up to 158.


Now that I'm looking at my notes, I seem to remember not aerating the wort like I usually do. I usually really beat the heck out of the wort and then add the yeast. I think I just added the yeast to the wort without really stirring much. One thing I did do, however, is shake it up good after the first week.

Thoughts?

 

[drat]

I should also add that with a Scottish Ale, a high finish is not necessarily undesirable. For me, at least.

OK, so re-reading your post I see that you are "new to the all-grain world". So I would echo the above comments that mash temp is important, and can be hard to "dial in". One of my early attempts finished at 1.034! But it was still drinkable, and was a good learning experience.

Calibrate your thermometer, use a good mash-infusion calculator, test for conversion, take notes, and practice practice practice.

Cheers,

How was That a good learning experience? What did you learn from getting to only 1.034 that you wouldn't have learned otherwise (pardon the noob question)?

 

[drat]

I should also add that with a Scottish Ale, a high finish is not necessarily undesirable. For me, at least.

OK, so re-reading your post I see that you are "new to the all-grain world". So I would echo the above comments that mash temp is important, and can be hard to "dial in". One of my early attempts finished at 1.034! But it was still drinkable, and was a good learning experience.

Calibrate your thermometer, use a good mash-infusion calculator, test for conversion, take notes, and practice practice practice.

Cheers,

How was that a good learning experience? What did you learn from hitting 1.034 that you wouldn't have learned otherwise (pardon the noob question)?

 

[frazier]

How was that a good learning experience? What did you learn from hitting 1.034 that you wouldn't have learned otherwise (pardon the noob question)?

Fair question. It distressed me, and I spent a lot of time pondering my processes, examining every piece of equipment and every temperature decision. Among other things, I discovered that my $5 digital thermometer was reading about 8 degrees low, which caused me to mash really high. How high, I can't know for sure. But I ended up with a thermometer collection as a result (turns out that those floating thermometers are pretty accurate, but slow to respond). And I learned a lot about controlling every part of the process (not that I've learned everything, mind you).

Another thing I've learned: keep looking forward to the next brew! Because it will be better than the last one.

 

[Moose1231]

I mashed at 158. A one point it dropped to 150, so I brought it back up to 158.

Now that I'm looking at my notes, I seem to remember not aerating the wort like I usually do. I usually really beat the heck out of the wort and then add the yeast. I think I just added the yeast to the wort without really stirring much. One thing I did do, however, is shake it up good after the first week.

Thoughts?

70C is quite high for mashing. But for a Scottish Ale you usually want a higher finish as already mentioned. This will give you a sweeter beer which is perfectly fine. Just so you know, 64C will give a dry beer and 70C a sweeter one. Play between these temps to achieve the desired taste.

 

[drat]

Definitely knew that the mash temp was getting up there, but. That's what I was going for... I wanted to try something that I haven't tried before, so there you have it. Still thinking that the aeration was a major issue, but I can't be sure. Obviously, with the higher mash, I would have less fermentable sugar. Would it have made sense to add some extra sugar either in the form of dme or something else?

 

[drat]

Fair question. It distressed me, and I spent a lot of time pondering my processes, examining every piece of equipment and every temperature decision. Among other things, I discovered that my $5 digital thermometer was reading about 8 degrees low, which caused me to mash really high. How high, I can't know for sure. But I ended up with a thermometer collection as a result (turns out that those floating thermometers are pretty accurate, but slow to respond). And I learned a lot about controlling every part of the process (not that I've learned everything, mind you).

Another thing I've learned: keep looking forward to the next brew! Because it will be better than the last one.

Can you recommend a good thermometer or even if one of those "lazer" ones work well?

 

[govner1]

Get a Cooper-Atkins w/ a long probe or a Thermapen if your budget allows.
Just curious, what was the recommended mash temp on the recipe?

 

[Yooper]

Definitely knew that the mash temp was getting up there, but. That's what I was going for... I wanted to try something that I haven't tried before, so there you have it. Still thinking that the aeration was a major issue, but I can't be sure. Obviously, with the higher mash, I would have less fermentable sugar. Would it have made sense to add some extra sugar either in the form of dme or something else?

If you mashed at 158, a 1.020 FG is reasonable. The beer is done. You can bottle it when it clears a bit.

 

[Trail]

I mashed at 158. A one point it dropped to 150, so I brought it back up to 158.

I'd bet dollars to donuts this is your problem, PARTICULARLY if you're a BIABer. If you heated your mash tun via direct heat, the bottom will be hot enough to deactivate the amylase enzymes required to make your wort fermentable. The effect of this on your finishing gravity can be massive.

Similarly, if you raised the temp by adding boiling water, the same thing can happen.

I've gotta echo what the other guy said - 1.020 FG for a scotch ale is NOT a bad thing. It'll be thick and tasty, just like Scottish Jesus intended.

 

[drat]

I'd bet dollars to donuts this is your problem, PARTICULARLY if you're a BIABer. If you heated your mash tun via direct heat, the bottom will be hot enough to deactivate the amylase enzymes required to make your wort fermentable. The effect of this on your finishing gravity can be massive.

Similarly, if you raised the temp by adding boiling water, the same thing can happen.

I've gotta echo what the other guy said - 1.020 FG for a scotch ale is NOT a bad thing. It'll be thick and tasty, just like Scottish Jesus intended.

That would definitely make sense. I do direct heat but I'm not a BIABer. While heating I make sure I'm stirring, but all the same that would make sense. I'm still trying to build a 10 gallon Rubbermaid mashtun, just never seem to have. The time!

 

[drat]

Get a Cooper-Atkins w/ a long probe or a Thermapen if your budget allows.
Just curious, what was the recommended mash temp on the recipe?

158 was the mash temp of the recipe

 

[causeimthesquid]

Perhaps one thing you can take away from this is calibrating your thermometer.

Mashing at the high end with a thermometer that is 5 degrees off can really throw off your fermentability.

The way I do it, and someone correct me if I am wrong, is to graph the thermometer readings against known temperatures.

So on the X-axis put the thermometer readings and on the Y-axis actual temperature. Put your thermometer in a cup of water with loads of ice in it and let it equilibrate for 5 minutes or so. Read the temperature on your thermometer and plot it (e.g., if your thermometer reads 34F, plot 34,32). Do the same for boiling. Then simply draw a line between these two points and you should have an approximate correction curve for your thermometer.

 

[roastquake]

I'll echo what Trail said. 1.020 was meant to be!

 

[Trail]

That would definitely make sense. I do direct heat but I'm not a BIABer. While heating I make sure I'm stirring, but all the same that would make sense. I'm still trying to build a 10 gallon Rubbermaid mashtun, just never seem to have. The time!

At least you found out on a Scottish ale. If this'd been a pilsner, we'd need to begin lamentations.

Stirring will slow the rate of denaturation, but not predictably. You should consider doing a decoction mash next time - remove a quantity of the mash tun's content, direct heat that to over your target temp, mix back in. You still deactivate enzymes, but only a controlled quantity.

Also consider buying a sleeping bag for your tun to control losses!

 

[causeimthesquid]

An important thing no one mentioned is your grain bill.

How much specialty malt did you use? If you used a lot of crystal malt, you will have a higher FG regardless of mash temp.

 

[drat]

An important thing no one mentioned is your grain bill.

How much specialty malt did you use? If you used a lot of crystal malt, you will have a higher FG regardless of mash temp.

5 lbmarris otter
1 lb 60deg L
0.5 lb 120deg L
0.5 lb aromatic malt
0.5 honey malt
0.13 English roasted barley

Also, this yielded 3.5 gallons

 

[causeimthesquid]

That is a lot of crystal malt. Your total grain bill is 7.63 lbs, with your crystal malt making up about 20% of it, and specialty grains accounting for about 35%. I would bet its the amount of specialty malt you used that left you with such a high final gravity.

In the future, there are other things you can do to get a more malty/caramely flavor and mouthfeel to your brew - which is nice in a Scottish ale. One of the biggest things is a long boil time. This will increase your mailard reactions, darkening the beer and giving it a sweeter maltier flavor.

I try and keep my crystal malt additions to <15% and specialty malts total <20%. I will sometimes augment the basemalt bill with Vienna or Munich malt if I want to increase the malt character.

 

[JimRausch]

That is a lot of crystal malt. Your total grain bill is 7.63 lbs, with your crystal malt making up about 20% of it, and specialty grains accounting for about 35%. I would bet its the amount of specialty malt you used that left you with such a high final gravity.

In the future, there are other things you can do to get a more malty/caramely flavor and mouthfeel to your brew - which is nice in a Scottish ale. One of the biggest things is a long boil time. This will increase your mailard reactions, darkening the beer and giving it a sweeter maltier flavor.

I try and keep my crystal malt additions to <15% and specialty malts total <20%. I will sometimes augment the basemalt bill with Vienna or Munich malt if I want to increase the malt character.

I agree. On the Scottish I made last month(in bottles two weeks now, I may crack one this weekend just to see) one of the techniques I read about and did, was to take 1 gallon of the 1st runnings and boil that seperately, trying to condense it down to about 1 pint-1 qt(I made it down to somewhere around 1 Qt). That is supposed to increase the mailliard rxn. products, and give a more malty flavor. We'll see how it turns out. By the way, my OG was 1.078, and FG was 1.018. I used the WY1728(?) Scottish Ale yeast.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

5 lbmarris otter
1 lb 60deg L
0.5 lb 120deg L
0.5 lb aromatic malt
0.5 honey malt
0.13 English roasted barley

Also, this yielded 3.5 gallons

Just as a contrasting datapoint to the suggestions that you're using too much specialty malt: Jamil's scottish 70/- from Brewing Classic Styles uses 31.5% specialty malts, finishes at 1.014, and has won medals in the final rounds of the NHC.

 

[drat]

That is a lot of crystal malt. Your total grain bill is 7.63 lbs, with your crystal malt making up about 20% of it, and specialty grains accounting for about 35%. I would bet its the amount of specialty malt you used that left you with such a high final gravity.

In the future, there are other things you can do to get a more malty/caramely flavor and mouthfeel to your brew - which is nice in a Scottish ale. One of the biggest things is a long boil time. This will increase your mailard reactions, darkening the beer and giving it a sweeter maltier flavor.

I try and keep my crystal malt additions to <15% and specialty malts total <20%. I will sometimes augment the basemalt bill with Vienna or Munich malt if I want to increase the malt character.

This is what makes this site such a great educational tool! The things you learn. On here are unreal!

So, a longer boil would work. I would assume you just make sure you test how fast your system boils down the wort and. Then count backwards, as I added hops at 60 minutes.

 

[drat]

I agree. On the Scottish I made last month(in bottles two weeks now, I may crack one this weekend just to see) one of the techniques I read about and did, was to take 1 gallon of the 1st runnings and boil that seperately, trying to condense it down to about 1 pint-1 qt(I made it down to somewhere around 1 Qt). That is supposed to increase the mailliard rxn. products, and give a more malty flavor. We'll see how it turns out. By the way, my OG was 1.078, and FG was 1.018. I used the WY1728(?) Scottish Ale yeast.

Did you crack that first beer? What did you think?

 

[drat]

Just as a contrasting datapoint to the suggestions that you're using too much specialty malt: Jamil's scottish 70/- from Brewing Classic Styles uses 31.5% specialty malts, finishes at 1.014, and has won medals in the final rounds of the NHC.

Looks like another beer I need to consider making *sigh*.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Looks like another beer I need to consider making *sigh*.

So much beer, so little time...

 

[JimRausch]

Did you crack that first beer? What did you think?

I did. Definitely NOT READY YET. My temps in the basement have been running low to mid 60s, so carbonation is not surprisingly sparse. We have a little warming trend going now, so that'll help, plus I gave all the bottles a shake to get the yeast back in suspension. I'm going to give it another 2 weeks(making 4 weeks total since bottling) before trying another.

 

[drat]

I did. Definitely NOT READY YET. My temps in the basement have been running low to mid 60s, so carbonation is not surprisingly sparse. We have a little warming trend going now, so that'll help, plus I gave all the bottles a shake to get the yeast back in suspension. I'm going to give it another 2 weeks(making 4 weeks total since bottling) before trying another.

I'm letting mine bottle condition for about 3 weeks at about 70 before I drop it in the cellar in the low 60s. Curious to see how this turns out