Samuel Smiths Organic Chocolate stout clone request

[TandemTails]

I just saw someone posting that Oskar Blues uses Cholaca (http://www.cholaca.com/) in their Death by Coconut (chocolate coconut stout). I wonder if the flavor of the unsweetened cholaca is anywhere near the chocolate flavoring Samuel Smith's uses.

I haven't tried Cholaca yet since it seems really expensive, but it might be an easier option than trying to hunt down some kind of flavoring they use in Organic Chocolate Stout.

 

[Roadie]

Male or female unicorn milk - it makes a difference ...

Female... it's sweeter.

 

[BobOki]

Checking up to see if any of you crazy people have cracked the case of this one yet? It cannot end with "aliens" there has to be a way to clone!

 

[actionjackson905]

After about 10 months since my last post on this topic, I'm giving it another shot. I believe they achieve the massive chocolate aroma from blending post-boil. So there are two components - one, nailing the base stout profile; and two, getting the chocolate flavor correct.

For the former, I'm going with 84% base UK pale malt, 8% crystal malts, and 8% roasted malts. Mashing high to retain residual sweetness (156F). Aiming for the documented OG of 1.059 and IBU of 28. Color is not documented but I'm going for 37-38 SRM. The Sam Smith product is not opaque. It has a hint of ruby red transparency visible.

The chocolate is the absolute trickiest thing. I've tried adding roasted cocoa nibs to another stout and it added a nice component for sure, but didn't match the Sam Smith aroma. So I'll try to create a chocolate syrup out of organic cocoa and sugar (as documented in the ingredients) that smells like the basic Sam Smith aroma. Then I'll blend that in during fermentation.

There are no oats or lactose in the recipe, otherwise the label would say so. I've studied it many times. The base stout also has a low "roastiness factor" so I am thinking under 10% for sure, although even 8% may prove too high. I'd rather over-do it and scale back the next time, though. I'm using chocolate malt and roasted barley in 50/50 balance for the roasted malts.

OK. I have read this thread front to back 4 times. Here is what I have retained through this fantastic collaboration. Nobody has nailed down the base stout, and nobody has yet to figure out the chocolate profile. I absolutely love this beer, and must have a clone on tap by this Christmas, and it must be able to be bottled without risk of bombs.

So. I'm going to take a shot, and use a blend of McKnuckles recipe's and mix in some of the other guesses.

Feel free to critique.

5gal. Kegged on Co2

6lbs Pale Malt, Golden Promise (TF)
1Lb Abbey Malt
8oz Black Malt (TF)
8oz Caramel/Crystal 60 (Muntons)
8oz Chocolate Malt
8oz Roasted Barley
8oz Special B

BeerSmith puts this at:
1.049 OG
50.4 SRM
5% ABV

I'm throwing the Abbey in there as I recently (accidently) discovered this malts intense sweetness, without a high mash temp. I created 2 malt bombs thinking it was a base malt, and subbed in 1lb in a 10 gal batch, and 2lbs in another 10 gal batch. Lots of honey, vanilla sweetness. This might be what is needed in conjunction with the chocolate extract. I have just received 10oz of Nielson/Massey pure chocolate extract to play with, plan on adding at kegging (Amount yet to be determined)

So, now I need help with the hop profile.

FYI: I plan on using WLP030 as a first test run.

 

[6midgets]

I just had a bottle of this stout. It is a great beer and I would also love to have some on draft by Christmas. I look forward to trying this recipe. Thanks for the compilation actionjackson.

 

[actionjackson905]

I just had a bottle of this stout. It is a great beer and I would also love to have some on draft by Christmas. I look forward to trying this recipe. Thanks for the compilation actionjackson.

I am still working on this one, and have yet to brew it. Looking to do this by end of September. I am still looking for help with the hop profile. Summer has had me out of brewing regularly, but getting my proverbial crap together this week and should be back on brewing schedule by the weekend.

Still looking for criticism on my recipe post as well.

 

[McKnuckle]

Hey I just noticed some activity on this old thread. I kind of abandoned the quest because it was so maddening. But I might be motivated to try a chocolate stout or two as the weather starts to cool down.

I had the good fortune of spending 10 days in England this summer on a beer trip. I was in Yorkshire, among other places, and toured several breweries in addition to attending the Great British Beer Festival in London at the end of the trip. I was bummed because I was staying in York, just a short drive from Tadcaster (home of SS) at one point, but it was a Saturday when they are closed! So I did not get to visit. I did, however, have some of their beers at pubs. The chocolate stout is not offered on draft/cask, however.

Anyway, my point in mentioning this trip is that I tasted plenty of cask dark milds, porters, and stouts among the sea of bitters (poor me...). Many of them are what I'd describe as soft, having light carbonation, a silky mouthfeel, more sweetness than some homebrewers tend to allow, and some interesting malt choices (such as UK crystal, Munich, torrified wheat, and dextrin malts). However, I did not see a single sack of grain that did not have a British origin. No Special B or Carafa, for example.

The old breweries also hold on to some traditional practices that we don't understand here, such as "needing" to add sugar in order to bump ABV up above 5% (which is considered fairly high). The Theakston tour guide said that, which amused me. But it means that they still hang on to a frugal mindset, using grain judiciously, and the sugar usage affects flavor for sure. Keep in mind that SS is an old brewery, and the chocolate stout is 5% ABV after blending with cocoa. Sugar is the third ingredient after all.

A few new tidbits from the SS website:

"Brewed with well water (the original well, sunk in 1758, is still in use with the hard water is drawn from 85 feet underground), the gently roasted organic chocolate malt and organic cocoa impart a delicious, smooth and creamy character..."

"Ingredients; water, organic malted barley, organic cane sugar, yeast, organic hops, organic cocoa extract, carbon dioxide."

The Sam Smith chocolate stout is notably low in roast bitterness. It has a mild flavor that allows the chocolate to shine. And it's not as dark as one of my earlier guesses (it is probably shy of 30 SRM).

Sorry if this rambled...

 

[actionjackson905]

I am still working on this one, and have yet to brew it. Looking to do this by end of September. I am still looking for help with the hop profile. Summer has had me out of brewing regularly, but getting my proverbial crap together this week and should be back on brewing schedule by the weekend.

Still looking for criticism on my recipe post as well.

"Ingredients; water, organic malted barley, organic cane sugar, yeast, organic hops, organic cocoa extract, carbon dioxide."

OK. So we can assume a hard well water profile. Axe the special B and carafa. Let's look at only UK grains, and I'll assume everyone might agree, low IBU, so light on the bittering hops, and maybe something light to finish. I don't think we will ever get anywhere nailing down the cocoa, but please somebody prove me wrong, so I'm thinking of using extract at kegging. My mental roadblock seems to be how much should I use in a 5 gal? I have never used extract to flavour beer so I'm clueless at this point.

Thanks for the ubdate McKnuckle, and not too rambling, I like hearing about UK trips involving beer

 

[McKnuckle]

After writing that post, I came up with this idea. Allow me to make caveats for my non-English choices (Note - I edited out the Carafa II):

79.1% Maris Otter Pale
8.6% Chocolate US <-- Briess makes organic choc. malt @ 350L
4.8% Crystal 60L UK
2.9% Crystal 160L UK
4.7% sugar

31 SRM, 1.054 to 1.015 (5.32% ABV), Fuggle hops at FWH and 10 min to about 29 IBU, or 0.53 BU/GU.

Mash at 155F for 90 minutes, boil for 75 minutes.

Use WY1469 pitched at 63F, free rise to 68F, drop slowly to 50F for conditioning after 3 days at 68F (73% att).

The water profile I have is 56 ppm Ca, 0 ppm Mg, 16 ppm Na, 76 ppm Cl, and 29 ppm SO4. Fairly easygoing actually, achieving a mash pH around 5.41.

This is brewing shorthand obviously, not a formal recipe. Note that I have not figured out any cocoa component yet! To be considered at the conclusion of conditioning...

 

[actionjackson905]

Just out of curiosity. What sugar would you use?

 

[McKnuckle]

Since it says organic cane sugar in the ingredients, I'd probably go with cane sugar (or light brown as I happen to have a bunch of that). I don't think it matters too much, as I'm clearly just trying to get in the ballpark of the basic stout profile for this beer, along with water and yeast character.

The chocolate can come later. I know, it seems silly to avoid chasing the defining quality of this beer, but it's like putting a puzzle together! This is not like a dry or oatmeal stout, and the basic character needs to be worked out first I think.

 

[actionjackson905]

I know, it seems silly to avoid chasing the defining quality of this beer, but it's like putting a puzzle together! This is not like a dry or oatmeal stout, and the basic character needs to be worked out first I think.

Cannot agree more with this. I'm going to try to research the sugar a bit before setting my recipe attempt in stone. I like where you are going with yours. Thanks for the water profile as well.

 

[actionjackson905]

Here we go. So I decided to pull the trigger with a couple adjustments from my original recipe.

6lbs TF pale
12oz caramel/crystal 150
8oz Abbey
8oz TF chocolate light

75 min mash at 152 came in at .4 over

60 min boil
1oz Fuggle @60
0.5oz EKG @ 45
8oz Dememara sugar @15

BS calculated 1.046 OG or 5%
Hydrometer/Refractometer split average came in at 1.048

Chocolate extract at kegging will be organic extract, amount TBD, but thinking to start with 2 tbls, and add more later if needed.

View attachment 20170924_194142.jpgView attachment 20170924_223119.jpgView attachment 20170924_230620.jpgView attachment 20170924_233950.jpgView attachment 20170924_234024.jpg

 

[TandemTails]

awesome! Keep us posted. I'm brewing a chocolate stout today and will use unsweetened Cholaca at kegging. I'm going for more of a biscuity/toasty chocolate stout this time around though.

 

[actionjackson905]

awesome! Keep us posted. I'm brewing a chocolate stout today and will use unsweetened Cholaca at kegging. I'm going for more of a biscuity/toasty chocolate stout this time around though.

60 hours after pitching WLP030:

View attachment 20170926_092225.jpg

 

[McKnuckle]

At least somebody is attempting to brew this again. I have a new stout recipe in my queue, but I have to finish the keg with the old stout first. Looking forward to your progress, Jackson!

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I'm not a fan of stouts but this beer is awesome. If someone nails the sweet chocolate no bitter no coffee flavor I'd love to know how they did it.

 

[Nichols2127]

awesome! Keep us posted. I'm brewing a chocolate stout today and will use unsweetened Cholaca at kegging. I'm going for more of a biscuity/toasty chocolate stout this time around though.

I've been experimenting with Cholaca too! Awesome product!! I've been wanting to try it with this type of stout too. It will be different but should make a great beer. Been using lactose to keep the sweetness and "milk chocolate" flavors with the unsweetened Choolaca. Been doing my add in secondary. Thinking about going in at flameout and seeing if that helps. Good Luck man and let us know how that recipe turns out!!

 

[actionjackson905]

At least somebody is attempting to brew this again. I have a new stout recipe in my queue, but I have to finish the keg with the old stout first. Looking forward to your progress, Jackson!

Pre ferm taste was pretty good, a little bitter, a little coffee and a boat load of sweet. Will see how it tastes after fermentation. I'm going to let this one sit for a bit longer than I usually do though. Will post again in about 2 weeks.

I'm not a fan of stouts but this beer is awesome. If someone nails the sweet chocolate no bitter no coffee flavor I'd love to know how they did it.

 

[Nichols2127]

awesome! Keep us posted. I'm brewing a chocolate stout today and will use unsweetened Cholaca at kegging. I'm going for more of a biscuity/toasty chocolate stout this time around though.

I've been experimenting with Cholaca too! Awesome product!! I've been wanting to try it with this type of stout too. It will be different but should make a great beer. Been using lactose to keep the sweetness and "milk chocolate" flavors with the unsweetened Choolaca. Been doing my add in secondary. Thinking about going in at flameout and seeing if that helps. Good Luck man and let us know how that recipe turns out!!

 

[actionjackson905]

Done. Waiting for an empty keg and on to chocolate extract addition and carbing. I'm very happy with the color, the taste is not as sweet as I had hoped, but very typical stout profile, although a tad drier than anticipated. Will see after carbed and cold if the taste is different. It will sit another 7+ days before kegging. View attachment 20171010_223158.jpg

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'd say you're trying to clone the wrong beer, Sam's not even the best chocolate stout in Yorkshire. I'd be gunning for Saltaire Triple Chocoholic - former SIBA champion and WBA winner, it's fab. I'd guess the name implies they're using nibs and extract and ???cocoa powder???. I'm not sure what the availability will be like, but it's big enough that I've seen it occasionally in supermarkets in the UK, so I'd imagine foreign distribution should be OK.

The UK microbrewery community still has that community ethos - but don't forget that the original Samuel Smith was a homebrewer when George Washington was a boy. I think it's fair to say that most companies with that kind of history get very protective of that history, as it's one of their key advantages in the modern market - same with Jack Daniels or whoever. Plus Humphrey is one of the more ...idiosyncratic... bosses of a British company, so their corporate ethos is rather less open than say Lees who collaborate extensively with Cloudwater for instance - Cloudwater regard using the nearly-5000-generations Lees yeast as a key part of the Manchester terroir.

Edit: Just come across someone reporting that the bottle label of the Saltaire says :

80% Pale Maris Otter
12% Chocolate Malt
4% Pale Oat Malt
4% Torrified Wheat

"Fuggles to add bitterness and aroma" (60 and 10??) plus "chocolate syrup, cocoa powder and chocolate essence"

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I'd say you're trying to clone the wrong beer, Sam's not even the best chocolate stout in Yorkshire. I'd be gunning for Saltaire Triple Chocoholic - former SIBA champion and WBA winner, it's fab. I'd guess the name implies they're using nibs and extract and ???cocoa powder???. I'm not sure what the availability will be like, but it's big enough that I've seen it occasionally in supermarkets in the UK, so I'd imagine foreign distribution should be OK.

The UK microbrewery community still has that community ethos - but don't forget that the original Samuel Smith was a homebrewer when George Washington was a boy. I think it's fair to say that most companies with that kind of history get very protective of that history, as it's one of their key advantages in the modern market - same with Jack Daniels or whoever. Plus Humphrey is one of the more ...idiosyncratic... bosses of a British company, so their corporate ethos is rather less open than say Lees who collaborate extensively with Cloudwater for instance - Cloudwater regard using the nearly-5000-generations Lees yeast as a key part of the Manchester terroir.

Edit: Just come across someone reporting that the bottle label of the Saltaire says :

80% Pale Maris Otter
12% Chocolate Malt
4% Pale Oat Malt
4% Torrified Wheat

"Fuggles to add bitterness and aroma" (60 and 10??) plus "chocolate syrup, cocoa powder and chocolate essence"

The label on the bottle has the exact malt bill?? That's crazy.
I'd like to know how much and when to add the other chocolate stuff

 

[Roadie]

Haven’t heard of Saltaire. No doubt Samuel Smith’s uses some kind of chocolate syrup/essence but have found it impossible to duplicate those flavors.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The label on the bottle has the exact malt bill?? That's crazy.
I'd like to know how much and when to add the other chocolate stuff

I've just remembered that I've got a bottle in the beer stash that was bought a few weeks ago; looking at it the label says 82% "pale malt" (I think we can assume not Otter) and 10% chocolate malt, then 4%, 4% and Fuggles so obviously the recipe has evolved a little bit. It doesn't explicitly mention the form of the chocolate, but looking at their website it's clear the triple includes the chocolate malt as well as cocoa and chocolate essence. They also point out that they are the current CAMRA Speciality Beer of Britain, nice.

Looking around at a few recipes for similar beers (there's a couple of recipes around for the Young's one) it looks like people are using 2-8oz of cocoa (better the cocoa, the less you need but Saltaire is definitely on the chocolatey end) and then there seems to be two kinds of liquid - one that's more concentrated and only needs a tablespoon or so, and one that's less concentrated and people use a couple of ounces of.

I'd be tempted to do a split batch - one with cocoa (most seem to add the cocoa towards the end of the boil, so perhaps make a cocoa "tea") and one with nothing, then blend cocoa beer, no-addition beer and essence separately (essence seems to be added in secondary) to find out what proportion works best for you.

 

[actionjackson905]

It's in the can! Smells awesome, chocolatey goodness. View attachment 20171019_092729.jpg

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What were the final amounts?

 

[actionjackson905]

What were the final amounts?

Sorry for the late reply. Been crazy busy with work and family, plus had to squeeze in another brew yesterday.

5gal

6lbs Pale Golden Promise
12oz Caremel/Crystal 150
8oz Abbey
8oz Chocolate
8oz Organic Dememera Sugar

Mashed at 152 for 60 fly sparge.

1 oz Fuggle at 60, 1/2oz EKG at 50.

Thames Valley Ale at 64 for 10days secondary for 10days

OG 1.048 FG 1.010

2 tbls of Massey Organic chocolate extract at kegging. Force carbed.

Smooth, bitter, slight coffee, not enough sweetness (more Abbey, and a higher mash temp next time), slight chocolate notes (not as chocolaty as SS, but not bad either).

Over all I'm quite happy with this and would be quite confident serving it. Out of 5 taste testers, all quite liked it, and one doesn't like stouts or porters.

 

[thunderaxe]

After writing that post, I came up with this idea. Allow me to make caveats for my non-English choices (Note - I edited out the Carafa II):

79.1% Maris Otter Pale
8.6% Chocolate US <-- Briess makes organic choc. malt @ 350L
4.8% Crystal 60L UK
2.9% Crystal 160L UK
4.7% sugar

31 SRM, 1.054 to 1.015 (5.32% ABV), Fuggle hops at FWH and 10 min to about 29 IBU, or 0.53 BU/GU.

Mash at 155F for 90 minutes, boil for 75 minutes.

Use WY1469 pitched at 63F, free rise to 68F, drop slowly to 50F for conditioning after 3 days at 68F (73% att).

The water profile I have is 56 ppm Ca, 0 ppm Mg, 16 ppm Na, 76 ppm Cl, and 29 ppm SO4. Fairly easygoing actually, achieving a mash pH around 5.41.

This is brewing shorthand obviously, not a formal recipe. Note that I have not figured out any cocoa component yet! To be considered at the conclusion of conditioning...

did you end up brewing this? if so, how did it turn out??

 

[McKnuckle]

Not that exact recipe, no. I have brewed a couple of good chocolatey stouts recently, but they don't taste like Sam's. Oh well...

That recipe seems a little one dimensional to me at this point. The US chocolate malt has a smooth taste, and I think the beer needs some black malt or roasted barley, even just a little bit. (Sorry, this is not so helpful to you.)

 

[actionjackson905]

Not that exact recipe, no. I have brewed a couple of good chocolatey stouts recently, but they don't taste like Sam's. Oh well...

That recipe seems a little one dimensional to me at this point. The US chocolate malt has a smooth taste, and I think the beer needs some black malt or roasted barley, even just a little bit. (Sorry, this is not so helpful to you.)

I was trying to keep it simple as a starting point. As well as trying to keep as many malts with UK origin. I think as a second try, I might add more Abbey, and/or up the mash temp to 54. Definitely going to add more Chocolate extract at kegging. I'm very open to suggestions of what to add or remove. I don't think we are ever going to nail this down to a perfect knock off, but I think we can come close enough to make it worth making. Like I said. That one wasn't close, but wasn't bad either. Half that keg is gone. I'm going to try to bottle the rest this weekend and plan another try at it. Also going to change the water profile for this one, based on my local water.

 

[thunderaxe]

@actionjackson905 tell me more about abbey malt. the name is off-putting to me as i assumed it would be something along the lines of special B but your description of sweet, malt, honey, and vanilla is very intriguing to me!

 

[actionjackson905]

@actionjackson905 tell me more about abbey malt. the name is off-putting to me as i assumed it would be something along the lines of special B but your description of sweet, malt, honey, and vanilla is very intriguing to me!

@thunderax Apologies for the delayed response. Haven't been on this forum for a while. Attached is the info from Weyermann on the Abbey. I came across it completely by accident as I was given about 50lbs from a brewery that was getting rid of unused malt. I haven't used it on anything other than the stout.

 

[Ragman]

Subscribed - I know its old but I absolutely love the dedication and perseverance in this thread.

 

[McKnuckle]

Yeah, it's an epic, collective under-achievement to be sure. This is a tough one to approach.

Your post actually prompted me to read through the thread again, as I haven't attempted to brew something similar too recently. But I happen to have an English stout in primary right now, and it happens to be OG 1.058 and 33 IBU.

I just took a gravity sample in a shot glass and added a single drop of Hershey's syrup. Then I microwaved it for 5 seconds and stirred it in. Hmm, that was interesting. It had the closest chocolate aroma and flavor so far. I made some posts on this thread about blending in a sweetened syrup post-fermentation, and chilling to drop the yeast (Sam's would filter). I think this is the right track, and I may experiment with this batch.

 

[McKnuckle]

I have made some real progress on this quest, and I have a base stout recipe to share. The only problem is that I'm not yet ready to commit on how to incorporate the chocolate, which in this case was Hershey's syrup. I've only added it to the glass so far, but the taste is amazing. I have to figure out how to incorporate it into the actual serving package. I *think* it can be added during priming, but I only feel secure doing this in a keg for now. With bottles, it's much more of a risk.

Is anyone interested in the base recipe yet, or is this a premature announcement?

 

[thunderaxe]

i'd certainly be interested in the base recipe

 

[SouthBounds]

Sub'd! My attempt tasted like a tootsie roll. Good but not SS.

 

[McKnuckle]

First let me state that by no means am I claiming to have used the exact ingredients as SS. I was not trying to clone anything when I brewed this. But serendipity entered the picture, and it tastes like a good foundation for this elusive beer.

Vitals:
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.016
IBU: 33
SRM: 30.5
ABV: 5.5%
Att: 71.4%

Fermentables:
Fawcett Pearl Malt 73.5% (any M.O. or UK pale will do)
Baird's Crystal 150L 12%
Crisp Brown Malt 7%
Lyle's Black Treacle 4.5%
Fawcett Pale Chocolate 3%

Hops:
Fuggle @ 50 min. to 33 IBU
BU:GU 0.57

Water:
Ca 85, Mg 0, Na 65, Cl 111, SO4 52
Est. mash pH 5.42 (Brewfather)
Boil 60 min.

Mash:
Single infusion, 154F for 90 min
Mash-out, 170 for 10 min, optional

Fermentation:
Disclaimer - use WY1469 for potentially more authentic flavor. The info below is "as brewed" for the record.
Safale S-04, pitch at 58F, set temp to 62F
Ferment 2 days @ 62F, then raise temp to 65F
Ferment 4 days @ 65F, then raise temp to 67F
Ferment/condition 5 days @ 67, then package
(11 days total, krausen dropped on day 8)

Packaging:
Chocolate syrup, 1 Tbsp/gal of packaged beer (~3/8 tsp / 16 oz. pint). Dissolve in small amount of boiled water and add to keg. Rack beer into syrup solution to mix well. Chill to serving temp and force carbonate. Optionally, add sugar as well and carbonate naturally to approx. 1.8 vol. CO2 (I have yet to work out the proportion, but it would be based on the sugar content of the syrup you use).

Ideally, serve at proper UK cask cellar temps (11-13C). This is not a beer to serve cold or very fizzy. But that part is up to you.

 

[SouthBounds]

I like your grain build better than mine. I had to back sweeten as well.

Thanks for a solid shot at it!