Samuel Smiths Organic Chocolate stout clone request

[McKnuckle]

So here is my new theory on how SS gets from 1.059 to 5% ABV and a good amount of residual sweetness without lactose.

They ferment with their yeast from 1.059 until natural FG is achieved, which is probably a good deal lower than 1.021 (calculated 5% ABV). They crash and filter. Then they blend back a sweetened chocolate syrup, such that the final volume is diluted to 5% ABV and a higher gravity is achieved.

I'm going to reserve a hydrometer sample when I have my next bottle of SS Chocolate, and dig into the dilution calculation. I can't filter the beer, but I can crash and fine it, and keg it - keeping it cold and inhibiting fermentation. This wouldn't work for bottling, obviously.

The final beverage would be, then, a blended product rather than something that is achieved entirely during brewing/fermentation.

 

[gwn]

Now that's some fresh thinking. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[McKnuckle]

We've had a rainy weekend here in NNJ, so I did some experimenting with chocolate liquor preparation. This is all in support of finding a chocolate extract to blend into a base stout after fermentation.

Cocoa powder is notoriously difficult, if not impossible, to dissolve into water. So I tried another route - one discussed on the organic foodie blogs. Sometimes you need to go outside your existing box (brewing, in our case) for information.

Basically, you make an infusion using roasted, ground cacao nibs. The end product is a copper brown semi-transparent liquid which can be easily blended with sugar to whatever degree is needed in order to adjust final gravity. As a bonus, it's not very bitter like the raw cocoa powder is.

The exciting thing is that I mixed it into a stout that I have on tap, and the general vibe really seems correct. The aroma and flavor have an overt chocolate syrup essence like Sam's version. The taste is not exactly the same for a variety of reasons - not least of which is the fact that my stout is FG 1.010 and quite roasty - but it's definitely on the right track!

Since I'm still very much working on this, I will just post the chocolate extract prep process:

1. Spread raw cacao nibs evenly on a pan
2. Roast them* in the oven, then cool them by dumping them on another pan and putting outside for a few minutes
3. Grind them gently in a manual coffee mill or similar (trying not to generate heat)
4. Warm the resulting butter in a pan of water at ~150F for about 20 minutes (no stirring)
5. Strain liquid with a fine filter. I did this in 2 stages; first with 200 micron, then 75 micron. It removes solids and the bit of fat that seems to liberate itself from the cocoa.

*Roasting is, of course, a process that can greatly affect the final chocolate profile. And I am sure that this will carry over into the final beer. Here's what I did, based on something I read on a chocolate geek forum. I'm sure it doesn't have to be so precise: 10 min @ 350F, 5 min @ 325F, 5 min @ 300F, 5 min @ 275F (total of 25 min).

I used 1 oz of raw nibs and 1 cup of water for this experiment. The resulting liquor was blended into my stout at a ratio of about 1:5. That wasn't quite enough, so I tried 2:5 and it was probably a little more than needed. I added sugar, too. I think the roasty nature of my current stout comes into play there. A more caramel centric base stout would require less chocolate liquor.

The FG of this concoction was about 1.016. I'm going to crack a bottle of Sam's tonight and measure its gravity. Then I'll move along to the next phase of this project... But for now, I've given up on adding any cocoa products during the brewing or fermentation of this beer. I think it's 100% in the blending at the end where they make it happen.

I hope this generates some new enthusiasm for the rest of you to play around!

 

[taylorb817]

Very interested in this thread.

Has anyone tried just using a huge amount of 30L or lower crystal malt?

When I was a new brewer, I added 2# of 30L to a 4.5% ABV ESB thinking it would give me a pronounced toffee flavor, but it instead just made my beer indeterminately sweet. (FWIW, it was actually a pleasant brew, just far off from what I was trying to achieve).

Perhaps adding a large dose (2#+ for 5g batch) of low (<30L) crystal malt could give the beer a nice sweetness that the cacao could latch itself onto.

Unfortunately, I am on a brewing hiatus because I am living abroad and do not want to reinvest in equipment, but would love to hear if anyone has had similar experiences with large doses of low crystal malt or is going to try it in a clone of this beer.

Cheers!

 

[deafcone]

Has anyone tried just taking some of the stout in your carboy and steeping more chocolate malt in it for 30 minutes to an hour and readding the liquid back into the carboy???? Shouldn't reverent much

 

[mblanks2]

subbed

 

[McKnuckle]

I finally got around to doing the hydrometer test on a bottle of SS Chocolate stout. Now, they say it's OG 1.059 with 5% ABV. One can easily calculate that, all things being equal, that implies a 1.021 FG.

The sample measured 1.014. And I did it correctly - no bubbles floating the hydrometer (that would make it artificially elevated anyway, the opposite of what I found). Temp of the liquid was 64ºF, so no correction needed.

That comes out to 5.91% ABV and a yeast attenuation of 75%. Maybe it's just a fudge factor to say 5%? So much for being back sweetened... a theory which I've more or less abandoned anyway.

Now, the beer could be started at 1.059, reach some intermediate gravity - and then get diluted to 1.014 with water based cocoa extract - which would bring down the ABV.

(I've done the calculation already, and the next recipe is in my queue...)

 

[jimyson]

Keep it going @McKnuckle

 

[McKnuckle]

Thanks man. I have two stout batches underway. The first one with cocoa extract in concentrated (vodka) form is in secondary, awaiting a free keg. It's being kept very cold while it waits. The second one is at FG, being cold crashed before I secondary it with water based cocoa extract. That one I'll bottle because it's a 2 gallon batch.

I'm not sharing any recipes yet because, well, why bother getting anyone's hopes up? I did use Wyeast 1469 for the most recent batch, only a small amount of roasted malt, and dropped the yeast after 5 days of primary to preserve the gravity (which is already a tad low) and maybe some esters.

Another tidbit of Sam Smith's trivia: The only beer they make that is bottle conditioned, and hence with the chance to harvest some of their yeast, is the Yorkshire Stingo. That appears in the US sometime around August, and is already a year old by then. The yeast may very well be a key factor in brewing beers with a similar profile, so that'll be a summer project.

 

[rocketsan]

My guess is their water is more important than their yeast

 

[Thyrodent2]

So i have in my left hand a bottle of Choklat (which for those that haven't had it is a beautiful Chocolate imperial stout. If you have the means, I highly recommend it.)
In my right hand is a bottle of SS organic chocolate stout.
Having a little of each on an afternoon I noticed something - I'm double fisting stout bottles and I should probably start attending meetings.

I also noticed that the chocolate aroma and finish have an eerie similarity. The beers themselves are different - but that chocolate finish was just too spot on.

Reading another thread talking about Southern Tier's "Choklat" and how to clone that, a poster says that in a conversation with the Souther Tier brew master he says that the chocolate flavor needs to be imparted with chocolate extract. I believe the quote was "we use buckets of the stuff". So I believe the key here is in finding the right extract and a decent base stout recipe that would match.

it makes sense though.. Next time you have a bottle, hold your nose and have a sip - the finish is almost completely gone. The same can't be said for beers that I have had brewed with real chocolate.

time to brew a base chocolate stout and buy a few different extracts.

-Thy

 

[McKnuckle]

You are definitely correct, and thank you very much for the Choklat anecdote. I have not had the pleasure of trying that one.

I completely agree that the chocolate extract blended into the finished beer is a key ingredient, and I believe it also dilutes the SS product to its documented 5% ABV. I have had two attempts so far based on my recent posts on this thread, each with a different method of extracting flavor from cacao nibs, and neither has hit the mark. But my stout base is to blame as well!

I'll be working on this one periodically for years, most likely.

 

[Thyrodent2]

I just got an 8oz bottle of pure chocolate extract from Olive Nation, and added a few drops to a glass of a regular stout I had made earlier The recipe was very similar to some of the recipes posted in this thread - minus all the actual chocolate. I just used chocolate malt. I added a bit of the extract to the glass and to my amazement - it's nearly spot on. Since I wasn't trying to clone SS with the base beer, the hop profile was a touch off and some other minor differences - but the chocolate flavor and smell was much closer than I've been without extract. I think with an adjusted recipe This could be spot on.

-Thy

 

[BobOki]

Anxiously awaiting a completed recipe after the last post.

 

[TandemTails]

Anxiously awaiting a completed recipe after the last post.

Same here. This is one of my favorite beers and I'd love to be able to brew something similar

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

If one is looking for extracts, then Neilson-Massey makes some great ones. Never used them in a homebrew but they are quality. They have a chocolate, vanilla, almond, orange, and I think a few others.

 

[McKnuckle]

I'm definitely going to get my hands on some of the extract that was mentioned and have a go. But it's April now - this is not stout season!

 

[BobOki]

I'm definitely going to get my hands on some of the extract that was mentioned and have a go. But it's April now - this is not stout season!

Bro.... it is ALWAYS stout season.

 

[kempshark]

I'm definitely going to get my hands on some of the extract that was mentioned and have a go. But it's April now - this is not stout season!

Stout season?......what?......I have no issues drinking stouts year round!! I'm in Florida and drink stouts/porters all through the summer too!!

 

[McKnuckle]

Alright... I hear ya. I do have my last attempt, 3 gallons worth, on tap. Since it will not get heavy consumption among the pale ales and pilsners during the warm weather, my next attempt will have to wait. Looking forward to it though! In the meantime, I'm getting plenty of experience brewing bitters with WY1469, which may be the closest thing to Sam Smith yeast we can find (it's Timothy Taylor's, also from Yorkshire).

 

[BobOki]

Checking in and not letting you off the hook if you are able to get something even close for us. *UPDATE PLIX*

 

[rocketsan]

Give it up. You're not going to recreate an artificial flavour without using artificial ingredients.

 

[Chanoc]

I'm definitely going to get my hands on some of the extract that was mentioned and have a go. But it's April now - this is not stout season!

It may not be shout DRINKING season...
But a stout brewed today may be spot on by fall/winter...

 

[BobOki]

I am ok with artificial if I need, someone figure it out.

 

[Thyrodent2]

I have an imperial stout I'm adding the flavoring to and starting force carbing tonight. I'll report back in a few days.

 

[gstojk]

Kinda contrary to the whole craft beer fellowship of sharing. What is Samuel Smith afraid of? Making the style more popular? Screw them.

 

[Double_D]

Kinda contrary to the whole craft beer fellowship of sharing. What is Samuel Smith afraid of? Making the style more popular? Screw them.

I'm not saying I disagree, especially considering how forthcoming most craft brewers are here in the states. But I think it's an openness that shouldn't be required, and if it's not given there shouldn't be bad feelings. I think the craft beer fellowship thing is American, especially with the amount of people that used to home brew that are now pros.

That said, I think it's amazing they have managed to keep basically everything except ingredients both secret and vague. Considering the amount of info on the web, you would think somebody would have said something somewhere...

 

[Thyrodent2]

So my stout with chocolate extract is ready and its very close. But, the difference is more like the flavor difference of a hersey bar and a nestle bar. The in your face chocolate is there, just not the same brand of chocolate. So, extract is the key, just not this brand. ( its really good, just not the same)

 

[BobOki]

Post your recipe so we can all start trying

 

[ultravista]

Subscribing

 

[DasHos]

Well?

 

[Nichols2127]

I think if McKnuckle uses his base recipe with Thy's concentrate you're going to be getting pretty close. Just read the whole thread and I'm interested in this myself. Good Luck with it guys!!

 

[Nichols2127]

I know this is an old thread and I'm attempting to create this recipe myself. Has anyone given any thought to this being a brown Ale instead of a stout? It's pretty thin and I think a moderate brown Ale recipe (majority 2 row, bit of maris otter, 20L, chocolate malt, black patent, Willimette to bitter (60 min) and Theobrama organic nibs (Brewers Best) with a vanilla bean) might get close. This is just off the top of my head and I know their yeast is hard to replicate. Just throwing this out there for thought.

Cheers!

 

[McKnuckle]

Hi there, I haven't forgotten about this effort... there are just so many other beers to brew! I happened to brew a great (unrelated) stout recipe that I aged for almost 6 months, and we are enjoying it a lot. So next time I try a chocolate stout, I'll have some new ideas for the base beer.

I get your point about brown ale. It's not that I think the Sam Smith product is more of a brown ale, but it is lacking in strong roast flavors, which might be what you're thinking. Maybe it needs the dark malts added at the end of the mash? And I was completely disappointed in all of the chocolate products I tried in previous attempts. They were all totally wrong! It's a learning process...

 

[Nichols2127]

No doubt about it! I feel like this one is a well kept secrete!! Only reason I was thinking brown Ale is because of the light mouthfeel. I don't get that heaviness that a stout brings. But you are correct, it's little to no roasted barley in this (at least not in the taste that I get). The mystery continues and so does the problem solving!!

 

[vash68]

Is it stout brewing season yet?

Here is a timely article on how to use chocolate in brewing:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/brewing-with-chocolate.html

In particular, among other forms of chocolate, the article suggests to use Chocolate Extract in 4 tsp &#8211; 4 TBSP quantities per 5 gal batch of stout and brown ale.
The extract can be used in secondary (medium flavor) or at bottling/kegging (most flavor).

I am putting this on my "TO BREW" list for when I finally reassemble my brewery after 1.5 year hiatus from the hobby.

 

[McKnuckle]

If definitely stout season. I've tried so far to brew a couple of Samuel Smith clone recipes, all of which have been good examples of the respective style, but nothing like the originals.

My conclusion? It's the yeast, man. We simply need the yeast. For a while, White Labs had WLP-037 "Yorkshire Square" available. It was met with mixed reviews and seems not to be available any more. The only other way to get Sam's yeast is to buy a bottle of the limited annual release of their Stingo old ale, which is the only bottle fermented beer they produce. I am waiting til release time and hoping to give it a shot.

For the chocolate stout in question, liquid extract at bottling time is the way to go for sure.

 

[BobOki]

Keep up the great work, this one is still a mystery!

 

[Roadie]

...the article suggests to use Chocolate Extract

I still don't think anyone will come close on this as the secret is in the chocolate unicorn milk they add and they're the only ones with the unicorn.

 

[ultravista]

I still don't think anyone will come close on this as the secret is in the chocolate unicorn milk they add and they're the only ones with the unicorn.

Male or female unicorn milk - it makes a difference ...