Problem. everything turns sour\vinegar

[Verratti]

I'v spent the last year trying to make wine and had juste problems. I started out when I learned to make wine from concentrated juice. I used welsh's and that first batch turned out great. I didn't sanitize anything just watched with hot water that time. Then from there, every time I tried it juste went vinegar so I tried boiling water and it failed. I bought K-meta. and it failed. I bought star-San and failed. I tried boiling-k-meta-Star-san trying to sanitize like a real psycho and failed. Im still trying hard and probably failed like 30 straight times this year (small batches since it all fails).

Then I gave it a rest for a few months and tried it 10 days ago and it worked for a mango wine. Decided to make a raisin wine for 6 gallons 4 days ago and smell's like its turning to vinegar AGAIN….. I bought a primary fermenter a few months ago in which I tried blueberry wine (6 gallons) and it failed using star-san and and some k_meta to the must. I tried banana wine and used k-meta in the must as well and failed. Now its raisin wine and its failed again. What is going on here ? crazy I can't make wine how ever I sanitize why ? anyone here has an answer ???????

Me primary is with a lid that has no holes and is supped to be made like that. The top is supped to lose its shape and let air out this way. But the primary fermenter isn't THE problem since Ive tried out of bottles with a ballon, in carboys ext.

 

[Yooper]

After 5-7 days in primary, do you rack to a carboy or demijohn, top up to the bung, and properly airlock?

That's usually the cause of wine going bad to infection- exposure to oxygen and contaminates.

 

[Verratti]

no it actually goes bad during primary. But if it did go ok, Id rack it into secondary after 5-7 day's. Never got there unfortunately it all goes VERY sour/vinegar the first few days.

Forgot to add. Yes top up for sure I know about the head space to leave no space for oxygen and all. I juste don't understand what goes wrong all the time. Once I even BOILED the must to transfer directly to a 1 gallon jug. Air locked it till the next day. Then I added EC-1118 yeast. The lid was opend for what 3 seconds, and it tired awful vinegar the next few days. How is that even possible.

 

[Yooper]

no it actually goes bad during primary. But if it did go ok, Id rack it into secondary after 5-7 day's. Never got there unfortunately it all goes VERY sour/vinegar the first few days.

Forgot to add. Yes top up for sure I know about the head space to leave no space for oxygen and all. I juste don't understand what goes wrong all the time. Once I even BOILED the must to transfer directly to a 1 gallon jug. Air locked it till the next day. Then I added EC-1118 yeast. The lid was opend for what 3 seconds, and it tired awful vinegar the next few days. How is that even possible.

Hmmm, it's not. It's just not possible for acetobacter to make vinegar in three days. Acetobacter eats alcohol and makes vinegar from that- if there is no alcohol for it to start with, it can't make vinegar. Maybe it's lactobacillus?

I assume that there is something going wrong at the very beginning, but one thing that will help is to make up the must, add campden (k-meta, also called potassium metabisulfite) and add the yeast 24 hours later. If you boil the must, which isn't a great idea, but if you do........don't wait to add yeast. Cool it in an ice bath, and then add the yeast right away. Letting it sit out at warm temperatures overnight can spoil the must, just like letting milk sit out overnight on the counter.

 

[Verratti]

Well for the K-meta I do use (potassium metabisulfite) but yes I do boil the must since I keep having bad batches. I will see to it thanks! I thought boiling the must would sterilize it and so keep the bugs out. But if you say it can't be since it turns bad like days after, then alright maybe my big problem is I boil the must :smack:

Ill try doing better and see thanks yooper

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Can you post a step by step of what you do and what you use? This will help to narrow down where a problem might be, I think that you are tasting the wine as it ferments and no longer has all the sugar in it, it gets a bit bitter, you may be mistaking this for spoilage.

 

[Verratti]

Can you post a step by step of what you do and what you use? This will help to narrow down where a problem might be, I think that you are tasting the wine as it ferments and no longer has all the sugar in it, it gets a bit bitter, you may be mistaking this for spoilage.

Well for one its definitely an infection. Its like someone vomit 23L in my fermenter and closed the lid for a few days.

as for procedures,
I start with using star-san on everything of corse.
Shut the lid of my fermenter with the solution and swirl it around for 1 hour making sure its very clean.
Then I boil water to dissolve the sugar (white table sugar).
I add to it about 80Gr. of toasted oak.let it boil a few minutes while I use bentonite with about 1 litre of boiling bater and dissolve it into my fermenter (without the star-san solution of corse.
Then I add what was on the fire (sugar-oaks) into the fermenter.
THen I take the juice and sometimes I boil the juice. If I use frozen concentrates, I just poor it in (juice at room temp.).
I then boil some water (1 gallon at a time) and add it into the fermenter and keep the lid shut while more water in on the fire. During that time Id say half way through the process I add some k_meta ( not to much just the equivalent of 4 or 5 camp den tablets.
Then onces everything is at 23-24 litres, I cover it and leave it till next day (12-24hrs) before I add the yeast (always use EC-1118).
I never open the lid I just keep it there in the dark in my garage (no cars in it ).

I hope that helps someone solve my mystery bug cause Im really desperate and passionate.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Since you KNOW it is an infection, throw everything away. Something touching the must is a carrier.

My guess is you are boiling a bunch of stuff and making a nasty smelling soup. Try room temp juice and dry yeast only...do not let ANYTHING else touch the bucket. Give that a few days and report back. JUICE AND YEAST ONLY, no sugar, no oak, no campden, no anything.

 

[Verratti]

Since you KNOW it is an infection, throw everything away. Something touching the must is a carrier.

My guess is you are boiling a bunch of stuff and making a nasty smelling soup. Try room temp juice and dry yeast only...do not let ANYTHING else touch the bucket. Give that a few days and report back. JUICE AND YEAST ONLY, no sugar, no oak, no campden, no anything.

Im not sure about your suggestion. The sugar isn't the carrier Iv used different varieties and get that same result. I'll try NOT boiling though since with the mango wine I did boil BUT I remember that I did cool it down in some cold water to pitch the yeast instead of waiting an eternity. I'll try to not boil. Is it possible for something to infect my wine even if it got boiled ??? shouldn't it kill the bacterias ?? Im so clueless

 

[Yooper]

Im not sure about your suggestion. The sugar isn't the carrier Iv used different varieties and get that same result. I'll try NOT boiling though since with the mango wine I did boil BUT I remember that I did cool it down in some cold water to pitch the yeast instead of waiting an eternity. I'll try to not boil. Is it possible for something to infect my wine even if it got boiled ??? shouldn't it kill the bacterias ?? Im so clueless

Maybe boiling with the oak and stuff is where you're getting such terrible flavor.

I'd stop that right away, and follow a very simple recipe at first.

I have a recipe posted for apple juice that makes a nice apple wine, and one that uses Welch's frozen concentrate. You can use either the 100% concord or the 100% niagara and make something pretty good.

I think some of the techniques (boiling with oak, sanitizing for an hour) are what is causing some of your flavor issues.

 

[Verratti]

Maybe boiling with the oak and stuff is where you're getting such terrible flavor.

I'd stop that right away, and follow a very simple recipe at first.

I have a recipe posted for apple juice that makes a nice apple wine, and one that uses Welch's frozen concentrate. You can use either the 100% concord or the 100% niagara and make something pretty good.

I think some of the techniques (boiling with oak, sanitizing for an hour) are what is causing some of your flavor issues.

Well I started boiling everything when it was going bad so I don't think its an issue here. Its not like its juste a little off. Its TOTALY off like massive smell that is nearly impossible to take off of the primary after. I think it may be that at first as a newbie I wasn't sanitizing enough and got the vinegar. Then started boiling everything and got another infection WAY worse but still similar since both are very acid. I did make simple recipes And still got that AWFUL smell. Funny thing is I did mango wine 10 days ago and it turned out perfect so far. It was boiled, but then cooled before pitching the yeast. On the other hand I did blueberry wine (1 gallon) in november last year and it was boiled but finished great. Im juste confused about the "source" of the infection and how to NOT get it again.

Forgot to add that I used boiled oak chips in my apple wine that I started 2 weeks ago and it didn't get this infection. I think it'll be good. Hard to tell though since apples are acid to dart with but I highly sought I got the infection in this one.

 

[Verratti]

Maybe it would be important to add that the only batches that turn out good were all made from a 2 litre pepsi bottle. So not much in quantity.

 

[Yooper]

Maybe it would be important to add that the only batches that turn out good were all made from a 2 litre pepsi bottle. So not much in quantity.

Do you have a carboy that is appropriately sized for your batch size?

 

[Verratti]

yes I have a few 23L carboys (all empty of corse )

 

[Verratti]

so frozen concentrates were on special this week and I picked up 16 cans. I want to try again tonight. How should I proceed ? how much sugar should I add ? should I use yeast nutrients, tannins, raisins (they were also on special this week and bought a lot) what would be suggested to do tonight ?

 

[Yooper]

Follow this recipe exactly: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f79/welchs-grape-juice-wine-21093/ except it doesn't have to be grape concentrate- you can make whatever you want. Some folks like apple raspberry, for example.

Make sure your juice is 100% juice, and not things like high fructose corn syrup. No boiling of oak, or anything like that.

Sanitize your fermenter with star-san solution per the directions, 1 oz per 5 gallons of water, and sanitize anything that touches the must. Otherwise, you'd be all set.

 

[Verratti]

Follow this recipe exactly: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f79/welchs-grape-juice-wine-21093/ except it doesn't have to be grape concentrate- you can make whatever you want. Some folks like apple raspberry, for example.

Make sure your juice is 100% juice, and not things like high fructose corn syrup. No boiling of oak, or anything like that.

Sanitize your fermenter with star-san solution per the directions, 1 oz per 5 gallons of water, and sanitize anything that touches the must. Otherwise, you'd be all set.

ok will do (though frozen 100% welsh's don't exist in my area). But why wait 12 hrs before adding the yeast ? No k-meta? can I add the raisins?

 

[Paps]

Are you using the same container on you new attemps as your failed ones?

 

[Verratti]

Are you using the same container on you new attemps as your failed ones?

Of corse but it was washed with water, then bleach, then water with soap, then water, then bleach and soap, then water and water and water then star-san for 45 minutes. Should do the trick right ? I mean its not because you have a bad batch that you through away your fermenter

 

[Paps]

I mean its not because you have a bad batch that you through away your fermenter

If it's plastic then yes.
Least the beer guys would.
Unless they like sours but that's a different story.
If i had a batch of my hard cider turn into vinegar i'd chuck any non-glass item that touched it.....or start giving out apple cider vinegar as gifts.
I've seen some whom specifically turn everything into vinegar but they sell it and charge a pretty penny for it.

 

[Yooper]

Of corse but it was washed with water, then bleach, then water with soap, then water, then bleach and soap, then water and water and water then star-san for 45 minutes. Should do the trick right ? I mean its not because you have a bad batch that you through away your fermenter

Keep soap away from your winemaking gear. You can wash it with something like oxiclean if it's really dirty, but use unscented oxiclean. Otherwise, just water for rinsing and then just star-san for the sanitizer.

Do NOT star-san for 45 minutes. I think it's got a contact time of 2 minutes, but that's while it's wet. You can rinse/dunk items in it, and while they are still wet you can go ahead and use it. Star-san can break down plastic and plastic tubing because it's acid based. It's a "wet contact" sanitizer- so use the item while it's still wet with star-san and before it dries.

If I had a bad batch, and it's in plastic, then yes, I would throw it away. Plastic can have minute scratches and things in it and can harbor bacteria. Since yours has survived bleach and everything, I'd probably just get a new one (if it's plastic). If it's glass, it can be sanitized easily.

Tubing and things are cheap and should be replaced.

 

[EJay]

Is there any chance this isn't an infection? Your sanitation sounds good - the only symptom seems to be a terrible smell. Its hard for that much infection to happen that fast. I don't think its possibly vinegar - that really takes time.

Some yeasts smell horrible while they're doing their thing. Montrachet comes to mind. T-58 has also given me that "whats the matter?" sensation (and later produced a great batch!) Is there any chance you're just getting hydrogen sulfide during fermentation?

 

[BrewinBromanite]

^^
I'm wondering the same thing here. I'm not a wine guy, but I know enough that it generally takes significantly longer to make good wine than beer. As mentioned (I'm assuming for wine just like beer) - there can be some really funky visual, smell and taste things going on until it's fully fermented out and aged sufficiently for style,even when all procedural steps have been properly followed. I wouldn't be tasting after mere days and making any dramatic conclusions. A complete out of place newb here in the wine-making world, but learning patience may be your biggest source of your problem here. And a lot of batches unnecessarily thrown out prematurely. Maybe give a few batches some more time.


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[Verratti]

well I started my next batch yesterday night and its started fermenting so I guess I'll juste have to wait and see what happens. But I've been having these bad batches even with my 1 gallon glass so its not only the fermenter. I'll have to find out where the problem comes from before using another fermenter or its gonna starting being expensive buying a fermenter every week.

If it goes bad, i'll use my glass carboy next time. I'll contact you guys back in a few days to see if it went bad again, of if it seems good.

Thanks for everything.

 

[Verratti]

^^
I'm wondering the same thing here. I'm not a wine guy, but I know enough that it generally takes significantly longer to make good wine than beer. As mentioned (I'm assuming for wine just like beer) - there can be some really funky visual, smell and taste things going on until it's fully fermented out and aged sufficiently for style,even when all procedural steps have been properly followed. I wouldn't be tasting after mere days and making any dramatic conclusions. A complete out of place newb here in the wine-making world, but learning patience may be your biggest source of your problem here. And a lot of batches unnecessarily thrown out prematurely. Maybe give a few batches some more time.


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Well no not quite. I've made wine and succeeded, but this is a definite infection. I've had it ferment this way for a while once and the smell juste gets even worst. Its to acid/sour/vinegar and vomit like to ever turn to anything else. My wife said the same thing once she said well, maybe juste leave it be. Maybe its normal and I of corse listened but it was nasty. My batches that did turn out right had a weird smell to it. Its not a good smell but for some reason, its addictive :cross:

 

[EJay]

What yeast are you using and at what temperature?

I work in commercial wine and don't know the intricacies of (non-vinifera) fruit wines, but is it possible you're getting pockets of hydrogen sulfide as a simple byproduct of fermentation? In the wine I'm used to, that's a big part of why we rack and punch down - to break up those pockets of gas. It smells absolutely evil, but is fairly normal early in fermentation.

 

[Verratti]

What yeast are you using and at what temperature?

I work in commercial wine and don't know the intricacies of (non-vinifera) fruit wines, but is it possible you're getting pockets of hydrogen sulfide as a simple byproduct of fermentation? In the wine I'm used to, that's a big part of why we rack and punch down - to break up those pockets of gas. It smells absolutely evil, but is fairly normal early in fermentation.

I almost always use EC-1118 from Lavlin. I boil the must then let cool at room temp. (21-24 degree celcius) for around 24 hrs before pitching the yeast. This infection takes place very early like 3-4 days in primary and it becomes excessively smelly like sour vomit.

 

[Verratti]

a quick thought, I got my k-meta from a guy that had stopped making wine. Could K-meta be infected? could that be the source ?

 

[Yooper]

a quick thought, I got my k-meta from a guy that had stopped making wine. Could K-meta be infected? could that be the source ?

No, not infected. But it loses effectiveness with time. I'd ditch that, and get fresh.

Also, leaving your must sit at room temperature after boiling for 24 hours is a bad idea. It'd be like making food, and then letting it sit out overnight at room temperature. I don't do that, and neither would most people.

If you are going to boil your must (and you shouldn't), at least chill it in an ice bath to cool it within 20 minutes, and then get the yeast in there. Letting anything sit out at room temperature for 24 hours begs for infection, as that is prime bacterial growth temperature. Even food buffets only let the food sit out for something like two hours (the safe zone) unless heated or cooled.

 

[Verratti]

No, not infected. But it loses effectiveness with time. I'd ditch that, and get fresh.

Also, leaving your must sit at room temperature after boiling for 24 hours is a bad idea. It'd be like making food, and then letting it sit out overnight at room temperature. I don't do that, and neither would most people.

If you are going to boil your must (and you shouldn't), at least chill it in an ice bath to cool it within 20 minutes, and then get the yeast in there. Letting anything sit out at room temperature for 24 hours begs for infection, as that is prime bacterial growth temperature. Even food buffets only let the food sit out for something like two hours (the safe zone) unless heated or cooled.

thats the only modification I've donne this time. I didn't boil the must. Though if it turns bad it could be the fermenter. My mango wine was boiled, but cooled right after before pitching the yeast and its not infected. The good thing with this infection is that its detected after only a few days so I don't have to wait months to find out.

 

[MaxStout]

Is there any chance this isn't an infection? Your sanitation sounds good - the only symptom seems to be a terrible smell. Its hard for that much infection to happen that fast. I don't think its possibly vinegar - that really takes time.

Some yeasts smell horrible while they're doing their thing. Montrachet comes to mind. T-58 has also given me that "whats the matter?" sensation (and later produced a great batch!) Is there any chance you're just getting hydrogen sulfide during fermentation?

I've made several batches of Edwort's Apfelwein with Montrachet, and the first batch gave off a bad case of "rhino farts." Stressed yeast can give off some terrible odors. The next batch I added some yeast nutrient and yeast energizer to the must before pitching. Problem averted. Those smelled like fermenting apples, not a sewer.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Im not sure about your suggestion. The sugar isn't the carrier Iv used different varieties and get that same result. I'll try NOT boiling though since with the mango wine I did boil BUT I remember that I did cool it down in some cold water to pitch the yeast instead of waiting an eternity. I'll try to not boil. Is it possible for something to infect my wine even if it got boiled ??? shouldn't it kill the bacterias ?? Im so clueless

My suggestion is to eliminate EVERYTHING except pure juice (or concentrate made with cool water) and yeast. if that goes bad, your environment or techniques are the problem. If it goes well, you need to add one thing at a time until it goes bad again. Trying to eliminate as much as possible from the equation so you can narrow it down.

 

[Verratti]

My suggestion is to eliminate EVERYTHING except pure juice (or concentrate made with cool water) and yeast. if that goes bad, your environment or techniques are the problem. If it goes well, you need to add one thing at a time until it goes bad again. Trying to eliminate as much as possible from the equation so you can narrow it down.

Well my mango wine didn't get the infection and it only had frozen concentrate, sugar and yeast. what I did different then the others though is cool down the must (since I'd always boil it first). If it didn't get an infection with that then I'll go with that simple combo Just started a batch yesterday with only juice water and yeast (didn't boil this time) but I used my fermenter. If this gets infected i'll try juice water and yeast into my glass carboy. If that works i'll blame the boiling must and come to the conclusion that my fermenter is infected.

 

[Verratti]

ok well 24 hrs in and theres already no doubt its contaminated. I'm starting a new batch this time in my carboy. Im just gonna suppose the primary fermenter is contaminated and will ditch it.

I'll post back soon to say if it worked or not.

 

[EJay]

Would it kill you to let it run a week? There's no bug as far as I know that contaminates that quick. I still think you've just got some smelly yeast. Apfelwein smells like death while its fermenting. I think you're chucking a lot of what may be good wine going through puberty

 

[oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer]

Got pics?? I doubt it is bad either. I clean things best I can but sometimes skip some things. I might just rinse out the sample holder for the hydrometer or maybe just rinse a funnel or some spoons might be a measuring cup or even a cheese cloth. Never had an infection ever. Some day it will bite me but I can't see how your fermenter could be contaminated after all you run it thru. Like Ejay say's give it some time it may surprise you.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

I'm starting to think suggestions are futile...


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[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Patience... of course wine after a day or so is horrible. I suggest strongly that you a)Don't boil your must, it's gonna destroy flavors and give you all kinds of issues, b) DON"T EVER USE BLEACH ON ANYTHING THAT YOU"RE USING TO MAKE WINE, IT'S A PRECURSOR TO TCA, c) inoculate the must with your yeast, put the carboy in a place where it can sit about a month without it getting in your way and COMPLETELY FORGET ABOUT IT. Try worrying about it in a month or so, I bet you it'll be tasting fine, albeit very young. Also EC-1118 throws SO2 like crazy because it's so violent, and is notorious for doing so, so much that it's in the tech sheets for the yeast specs themselves.. We need more relevant information such as initial Brix/S.G. etc alongside such practices like rehydrating your yeast with go-ferm or any additions of nutrients you might be adding to help feed your yeast in the presence of a low-nitrogen environment. Even in commercial scale winemaking while we're doing punch downs if there's any hint of H2S we usually do a feed so long as the sugar is high enough still. Honestly, winemaking is something to be enjoyed and not the cause of great and terrible anxiety. Let us know more detailed information such as starting gravity of your (un-boiled!) must, and also pH if you're able to measure it, even the cheap test strips can be helpful. Also, take my advice to set it and forget it for long periods of time to heart. Even the most sundry bottle of wine (with few expections) typically spend 12-18 MONTHS aging before consumption.

-Cheers

 

[Verratti]

Would it kill you to let it run a week? There's no bug as far as I know that contaminates that quick. I still think you've just got some smelly yeast. Apfelwein smells like death while its fermenting. I think you're chucking a lot of what may be good wine going through puberty

Been there done that. It gets more and more terrible for about 2 weeks before keeping its hard vomit sour smell for good.

 

[Verratti]

I'm starting to think suggestions are futile...


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and why's that ? of corse some suggestions I've tried already. I've been struggling with this for a year now and tried a lot of things. But I have a pad where I write the ideas that I could try. If your one of which thinks it isn't ruined and only needs time, then yes its fulie. I've tried that and it doesn't work. It stays and gets a little worst before it becomes unbreathable forever. Its a total lost.