pigtailing 12 gauge solid wire.... ARGGGGGGGGGGGH
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Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
Twist them together with your lineman's pliers first. How many are you trying to twist together and what color (size) wire nut are you using?
Edit: BTW, the THHN/THWN refers to the insulation type, not whether the wire is solid or stranded. If you want stranded wire, you need to specify.
Edit: BTW, the THHN/THWN refers to the insulation type, not whether the wire is solid or stranded. If you want stranded wire, you need to specify.
Sounds like you don't have the right size wire nuts. If your trying to splice stranded and solid....make sure the stranded sticks out a little further than the solid before you try to twist the wire nut on.
samc
Well-Known Member
Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
You're right- I don't like those. They are like back-stabbing a receptacle. A fire waiting to happen.
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samc
Well-Known Member
They are far better than an amateurish job of putting on the wrong size wire nut and not properly twisting the wires.
Try stripping off additional wire, say 1 1/2 - 2", twist and trim back to 1/2"...starting w/ more wire exposed and trimming the excess works for me.
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
Or just forget about the stupid wire nuts, splice the wires together, solder them, and insulate them with electrical tape. Those wire nuts are a piece of crap to start with.
JackSmith
Well-Known Member
Electrical tape is not meant for insulation. It is meant to secure the wire nut to the already-insulated wires. If you're not using wire nuts and are soldering wires together, you should be using heat-shrink insulation over the soldered joint. Electrical tape breaks down over time and is easily cut; it shouldn't be the only thing insulating wire.
mikeal
Well-Known Member
What about crimp butt splices? Easy to use and you can get them with heat shrink. We used them for everything in marine electronics installs.
There are some lousy wirenuts out there. I will only use 3M Ranger's.
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
Yeah, here, in the US. Electrical tape is used for insulation in the rest of the World without issue.
I come from a country where the household voltage is 220V, not 120V. Wire nuts are not known there. Being an electronics technician specialized in digitals and industrial electronics, I have worked as an electrician, one way or another, for most of my life (that is, until I came to the US, but hat's another story). I have seen installs so old that both the wire and the electrical tape were fabric based, and, more often than not, the insulated joints were in perfect shape.
Then, ever since I came here, I have heard all kinds of BS about electrical tape, from the wire getting loose inside the tape (supposedly because of the heat/cold cycles during use, expanding/contracting the copper, which, I can assure you, doesn't happen), to now this new one about tape not being resilient enough. Truth is, electrical tape is normally rated at a single pass insulation of 630V, and, if used properly, is way more resilient and way safer than the best wire nut, and the best heat shrink in the World.
Jota21
Well-Known Member
I mean this in the most helpful way, so please dont take offense, but if you're modifying 12g wire, that means you're circuit is going to be handling a lot of electricity. I would call a pro.
I love that there was the best answer right off the bat...and a slew of bad options (I'm looking at you tape, butt splices, and push connectors) followed. Not sure what you are doing but I would stick with wire nuts or terminals.
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
Yeah...and I'm sure you're perfectly qualified to make such a statement.
Just to clear up some about my "bad option", here's some real info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_tape
And here's a bit from the manufacturer:
http://http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECFTDQCEK3_nid=GSMFQ6QHB7gsCXQLTRJTL5glX2ZKKJMJTGbl
Open the first PDF ( 3M Electrical Tapes Product Selection Guide - Brochure) and look at the suggested applications for the first 2 tapes on the list. I guess if 3M is comfortable enough to suggest their tapes can be used to insulate up to 600V, it may not be such a bad option, after all, is it?
Jota21
Well-Known Member
Not to get in the middle of this, but obviously electrical tape is insualted, otherwise it would just be 'tape'. It's job should just be a secondary measure to cover the terminals or secure wire nuts. It may have enough resistance to insualate, but it's purpose should be to protect an electrical connection, not make one...
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
@ jota21:Again, you think you know better than 3M what their products are good for?
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
Now that I checked it, it didn't work for me either. Sorry. Here's the good one:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECFTDQCEK3_nid=GSMFQ6QHB7gsCXQLTRJTL5glX2ZKKJMJTGbl
Click on "Documentation" and then open the first PDF.
The tape is used exclusively for insulation. To mechanically attach the wires, they should be properly spliced before applying the tape.
The only reason for wire nuts to exist is the fact that it takes far less time to insulate with a wire nut, than to use tape, and that anybody can put up one, while you need to know how to use the tape. I have worked in electricity in Miami for little more than a year, and can tell from my own experience I can put about 6 or 7 wire nuts in the time it'd take me to make a good splice and tape it up. I can also tell you most wire nuts in domestic installations are held in place by the grace of God.
Jota21
Well-Known Member
EarthBound
Well-Known Member
Wire nuts are the industrial standard - not solder and electrical tape. At my power plant, soldering and electrical tape are not allowed because they do not meet the NEC; whereas, wire nuts are required because of the NEC. Also check out the junction boxes in your home and you'll find wire nuts there.
I know that we are not homebrewing in a power plant and that soldering and electrical tape work very well for our applications. I was just responding to the badmouthing of wire nuts.
I know that we are not homebrewing in a power plant and that soldering and electrical tape work very well for our applications. I was just responding to the badmouthing of wire nuts.
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
Hmmm...the 404 error came back with a vengeance...
There's no badmouthing of wire nuts necessary. they speak for themselves.
NEC is only used in the US and Canada (actually, I think in Canada it has a different name). The rest of the World uses DIN.
Wire nuts are not DIN compliant. Not for household use, and sure as hell not for industrial use.
Wire nuts leave an opening in the spliced joint. That makes them unsuitable for use in a variety of industrial environments (explosive. high humidity, corrosive, etc), while tape doesn't have those shortcomings.
Like I said before, NEC and UL are standards based on making the installations cheaper and easier, not safer. Even solder is not needed for a tape insulated splice, if you join the wires properly. Solder just lowers the contact resistance even further.
There's no badmouthing of wire nuts necessary. they speak for themselves.
NEC is only used in the US and Canada (actually, I think in Canada it has a different name). The rest of the World uses DIN.
Wire nuts are not DIN compliant. Not for household use, and sure as hell not for industrial use.
Wire nuts leave an opening in the spliced joint. That makes them unsuitable for use in a variety of industrial environments (explosive. high humidity, corrosive, etc), while tape doesn't have those shortcomings.
Like I said before, NEC and UL are standards based on making the installations cheaper and easier, not safer. Even solder is not needed for a tape insulated splice, if you join the wires properly. Solder just lowers the contact resistance even further.
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
By the way: in the about 14 months or so I worked in electricity, I wired about 100 breaker panels. You're absolutely wrong: in a properly wired panel, there should be no wire nuts whatsoever.
Wberry
Well-Known Member
Go on Ebay and look for Wago cage clamp blocks - pick up a small piece of din rail and boom you are done. Professional looking and super easy to maintain, cheap and expandable!
wildwest450
Well-Known Member
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Imagine that, another electrical thread gone awry.
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mikeal
Well-Known Member
It's almost like people have different opinions and different ways to do things!
EarthBound
Well-Known Member
Hmmm...the 404 error came back with a vengeance...
There's no badmouthing of wire nuts necessary. they speak for themselves.
NEC is only used in the US and Canada (actually, I think in Canada it has a different name). The rest of the World uses DIN.
Wire nuts are not DIN compliant. Not for household use, and sure as hell not for industrial use.
Wire nuts leave an opening in the spliced joint. That makes them unsuitable for use in a variety of industrial environments (explosive. high humidity, corrosive, etc), while tape doesn't have those shortcomings.
Like I said before, NEC and UL are standards based on making the installations cheaper and easier, not safer. Even solder is not needed for a tape insulated splice, if you join the wires properly. Solder just lowers the contact resistance even further.
LMAO! I didn't mean to piss you off, buddy... I merely relayed my local industrial experience. Sure - solder and tape is great... whatever...
Um, I said junction boxes, not breaker panels. Of course there's no wire nuts in breaker panels.
This seems to be a touchy subject to you. Did wire nuts kill your parents or something? Just kidding!
Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
If I made a splice in a box with electrical tape I would get fired. Use wire nuts. If you use the right kind (ideal) and size they will last forever and never let go. The method of soldering and taping hasn't been used in eons, and the I have never even seen where you can get the cloth tape used for that anyway. Regular vinyl tape is indeed rated for 600 volts, but it will not last. Period. If you don't want to use wire nuts, get some Polaris lugs, but don't complain when you see the price.
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
LMAO! I didn't mean to piss you off, buddy... I merely relayed my local industrial experience. Sure - solder and tape is great... whatever...
You didn't ppiss me off.I know the code here. I'm not arguing that. I know you need to use wire nuts on anything that needs to pass inspection. Like I said, I used to work in electricity, and the company I worked for did only hotels and apartment buildings, so we went through boxes of them like they were free.
Sorry if I came up like I was pissed. I'm Latin, so I'm passionate about pretty much everything, but it takes a lot to piss me off.
Hmmm...sorry about the confusion. Like I said, I'm Latin, English can be a challenge for me.
This is not a particularly touchy subject for me (other than what I said above about being passionate). I just think wire nuts are substandard, and, more importantly, unsafe. They're just a lousy way to join wires.
Sure, they're code compliant, they're fast to use, and they're cheap. My focus is exclusively on safety. Bottom line: if you get shocked handling a wire, no code is gonna save you.
EarthBound
Well-Known Member
I know the code here. I'm not arguing that. I know you need to use wire nuts on anything that needs to pass inspection. Like I said, I used to work in electricity, and the company I worked for did only hotels and apartment buildings, so we went through boxes of them like they were free.
Sorry if I came up like I was pissed. I'm Latin, so I'm passionate about pretty much everything, but it takes a lot to piss me off.
Hmmm...sorry about the confusion. Like I said, I'm Latin, English can be a challenge for me.
This is not a particularly touchy subject for me (other than what I said above about being passionate). I just think wire nuts are substandard, and, more importantly, unsafe. They're just a lousy way to join wires.
Sure, they're code compliant, they're fast to use, and they're cheap. My focus is exclusively on safety. Bottom line: if you get shocked handling a wire, no code is gonna save you.
I understand what you mean: I'm passionate about a lot, especially homebrewing and electrical stuff.
Personally, for homebrewing applications, I've use solder/tape, wire nuts, butt connectors, and crimp-on quick disconnects. I used all the above on my brewstand alone.
I agree that safety is more important than anything. That's why there should be no handling of energized wires, and all potentially hot metal (enclosures, j-boxes, brewstand, etc) should be properly grounded.
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. But sometimes you don't have a choice.
In my country, electricity is 220V, and 380V for 3 phase (3x220 in star, 3x380 in triangle), and, for one reason or another, you always end up having to handle hot wires, or other fixtures. What I love about taped splices is that you can easily see if it's done properly, and act accordingly. I can't tell you how many times I went to work on a wire that's been spliced with a wire nut, only to have the wire nut fall to the floor right in front of me, just because of the movement on the wire. I'm more afraid of handling 120V here, than I ever was of handling 380V in my country. And for a guy that still has a mark from a 18KV shock, that's a lot to say...
You gotta love youtube...
PleasantValleyHops
Well-Known Member
I like this. I didnt realize their were so many electricians that brew. Awesome. Now for my two cents. If they are solid. Properly instal the wire nut. U dont have to twist any wire together if u dont want to but i would suggest. Voltage isnt really the issue. 600 volts is decent. Its current that kills u. Amps is what melts electrical tape. Not voltage. Thats y even tho in whatever country anybodies in that same number 12 wire can handle our 120 volts or 277,480,208,220. But u put 100 amps threw a 12 wire u better stand back. All options stated will work for u. Have fun.
And hot work is fun but not liked(at least by the ibew)
And hot work is fun but not liked(at least by the ibew)
Inodoro_Pereyra
Well-Known Member
Hmmm...I sense another discussion "brewing"...
Current doesn't kill you, and neither does voltage. POWER kills you, or, more accurately, current at a high enough voltage to break the skin's resistance.
You can have all the current you want, but if you don't have enough voltage, all that current just won't flow. On the other hand, voltage alone is not likely to kill a healthy human being, but it can eventually get you killed, under the right circumstances (for example, if you have a heart condition).
As per the wires and the tape, again, not really. Current will heat up the conductor, to the point that it may melt the insulation, and/or the tape. But voltage by itself can (and will) perforate the insulation, if it's high enough. The reason why you can use most regular wires on any of the voltages you cited is because most of them have their insulation rated at 10000V. But, if you think voltage is not important, try to use regular household wires for your car's spark plugs, and see how they hold up.
Now, this is gonna be my last post here, at least until Friday. Going on a trip.
Have fun, and keep safe.
PleasantValleyHops
Well-Known Member
Inodoro_Pereyra said:Hmmm...I sense another discussion "brewing"...
Current doesn't kill you, and neither does voltage. POWER kills you, or, more accurately, current at a high enough voltage to break the skin's resistance.
You can have all the current you want, but if you don't have enough voltage, all that current just won't flow. On the other hand, voltage alone is not likely to kill a healthy human being, but it can eventually get you killed, under the right circumstances (for example, if you have a heart condition).
As per the wires and the tape, again, not really. Current will heat up the conductor, to the point that it may melt the insulation, and/or the tape. But voltage by itself can (and will) perforate the insulation, if it's high enough. The reason why you can use most regular wires on any of the voltages you cited is because most of them have their insulation rated at 10000V. But, if you think voltage is not important, try to use regular household wires for your car's spark plugs, and see how they hold up.
Now, this is gonna be my last post here, at least until Friday. Going on a trip.
Have fun, and keep safe.
Im not really refering to killing anyone but more to degrading the insulation itself. And that is what kills insulation. As im looking at the 2008 nec a #12 thhn is rated up to 30 amps in a raceway and 40 amps in free air. in table 310.16. Im not here to debate anything tho im just having fun and i figure y not look up a few things in my code book.
. Now someone tell me what to brew next so i can enjoy myself!!!!! Idoctorsbro
Well-Known Member
Well if you truly believe that electrical tape is fine for insulating wire connections then by all means go ahead and wire your entire house with black tape and see what happens.......
ALL WIRE not just some need a mechanical connection via clamping or soldering, a loose wrap of "black tape" will just lead to a loose connection and failure, when black tape gets warm it becomes elastic and also the adhesive begins to melt allowing the tape to "remove itself" creating a bare connection that could cause a fire. When a connection becomes loose, smaller amounts of wire are making the connection then in turn overloading that small connection then overheating it and creating a fire in your black tape haven of a home. How could you even sleep at night if you had wires in your walls of your house connected via "black tape"? I know i couldnt, i would worry on my way home if there will be fire trucks parked in front of my house. Remember, loose connections in wires are the leading cause of electrical house fires......
doctorsbro
Well-Known Member
Hmmm...the 404 error came back with a vengeance...
There's no badmouthing of wire nuts necessary. they speak for themselves.
NEC is only used in the US and Canada (actually, I think in Canada it has a different name). The rest of the World uses DIN.
Wire nuts are not DIN compliant. Not for household use, and sure as hell not for industrial use.
Wire nuts leave an opening in the spliced joint. That makes them unsuitable for use in a variety of industrial environments (explosive. high humidity, corrosive, etc), while tape doesn't have those shortcomings.
Like I said before, NEC and UL are standards based on making the installations cheaper and easier, not safer. Even solder is not needed for a tape insulated splice, if you join the wires properly. Solder just lowers the contact resistance even further.
id really like to see 4/0 wire connected via electrical tape in an industrial facility. And for exposive enviroments, you wouldnt be using electrical tape either.... all connections would be in sealed boxes/conduits with explosion proof sealed outlets actually using a mechanical fasterner
